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Could the original "Jedi" have worked?


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I just posted this over at Don's Diner on Superman Cinema and wanted to know what you guys thought as well...

I just re-read both Gary Kurtz interviews (one at filmforce and another elsewhere that escapes me), in which he delves into some of the original details that were planned for Return of the Jedi following Empire before he left his spot as producer of the films. Such plot details include...

- Sticking to the original plan of nine films.

- Killing Han Solo.

- No new Death Star.

- Having Leia wind up becoming Queen of whatever remained left of the galaxy.

- Making the Luke/Vader conflict revolve around the idea of Vader luring Luke to join him in an attempt to overthrow the Emperor.

- No Ewoks.

- Leia not being Luke's sister and making her someone else in the galaxy whom we would see in the next trilogy.

- The Emperor would not appear until Episode IX.

Others that have been mentioned as well include...

- Luke and Vader's final battle taking place on Coruscant, due to no Death Star.

- Due to no Ewoks, Wookees would be used instead.

- Lando would die in the Millenium Falcon as it was blown up, along with all aboard.

Man, if some of this had happened...I think it would've been great. Much more in tone with Empire before it, and it sets up for the final trilogy.

I don't know if an entire new trilogy based solely on Luke without the other main characters would've worked, but if Kurtz had remained on and Lucas stepped aside some more...man who knows what we could've gotten.

Thoughts?

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All prequel and SE bashing aside, I really feel that what Lucas needed more than anything else was somebody who would say "No" to him once in a while. If Kurtz had been on board for Jedi and they had stuck to the original plan... Yeah, I think it would have ended up being a lot better.

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It seems to be that way.

I mean, just listen to what he says. He and George would actually discuss what was going to happen and argue over certain points as opposed to Rick McCallum who says, "Yes, George", when Lucas decides that a subplot involving Midichlorians is appropriate.

I would include Kirschner in there as well, as he seemed to also stand up to George along with Gary.

And Gary knows what's happening. He's seen the prequels and just from having worked with George before, he knows how it's all being handled. Lucas is now surrounded with a crew of yes-men who would sooner turn Anakin into a green duck and Amidala into a whore as long as Lucas felt it to be.

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I think some of those ideas are great ideas, especially those about the ewoks and the second Death Star. Others don't appeal to me that much, such as Leia not being Luke's sister, or having to say goodbye to Han. But at least with this last one, Han would have had the best farewell in ESB.

I think some directors need someone to tell them no, adn Lucas is one of them. I think Spielberg in his latest films is another good example, he cannot choose what scenes should do it and whcich ones shouldn't, and we then find more than two hours long films which deserve no more than 1:45. But going back to the point, I think MacCallum is the worst thing that has happened to SW. I just can't stand him in the featurretes, talking as if they were making instant classics, as if they were managing what Kurtz did in the 80s.

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I think that the ideas sound interesting, but a 9 film series would have been almost impossible to maintain quality in. Also, it would have taken the better part of 30 years (assuming Lucas worked continuously). Doing the maths, Lucas would have just finished Episode IX (assuming he did 4-5-6-1-2-3-7-8-9) last year. This is, I think, slightly ridiculous. Arguably, 6 is too many. 9 is WAY too many. Also, Han Solo can't die! [or rather shouldn't]

But 9 JW SW scores would have been good!

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... but a 9 film series would have been almost impossible to maintain quality in. Also, it would have taken the better part of 30 years (assuming Lucas worked continuously). Doing the maths, Lucas would have just finished Episode IX (assuming he did 4-5-6-1-2-3-7-8-9) last year.

Actually, Episode IX would've been released in May 2001. And the quality of the 9 episodes could've been maintained if Lucas didn't make sure he surrounded himself with yes-sayers.

:thumbup: - Gary Kurtz - :|

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Alex Cremers

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I do not believe in Lucas, and I dislike his prequels.

ROTJ is great entertainment though.

Great entertainment? That depends on how you look upon Star Wars. Personally, I felt insulted, many, many times over. I wish Gary was never "replaced". Gary and I share the same vision.

:thumbup: - Gary Kurtz - :|

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Alex Cremers

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I pity you.

I wonder why at a certain point you are always getting personal. I was talking about Star Wars and how the quality changed the moment Kurtz left. Let's try to keep our friendship out of this. Please, stay on target.

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Alex Cremers

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You have never shown any respect for my opinions, why should I choose to respect yours?

If you can't stand the heat, Stefancos, stay out of the kitchen. I'm was addressing ROTJ, which is a movie. You, on the other hand, were addressing me and not a movie. Do you see the difference? Somehow you always take it personal. Feel free to defend ROTJ with all your heart but try to focus on the movie and not me.

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Alex Cremers

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So, you can dish them out but you can't take them?

That is interesting to know, thank you Alex.

Reread this thread and realize that this is how you always operate. Every time I express my opinions about a piece of music or a movie, you soon start expressing your opinions about me without further debating the issue at hand. Why is that, Stefancos? Are you that insecure?

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Alex Cremers

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ROTJ is great entertainment, yes it's a step down from SW and ESB. But I'll still take ROTJ over most other genre fare. If I could change ROTJ, I'd have the battle take place on Coruscant instead of a distant planet like Endor. And no furry creatures at all, wookies or ewoks.

The scene with Han and Leia arguing would be moved to earlier in the film before the strike team is assembled. Han, believing that Leia doesn't love him, decides to pilot the Falcon with Chewie and Lando in the battle instead of staying with Leia.

Darth Vader wouldn't be redeemed at the end either. The three ghosts would appear to Luke at the end, but Anakins fades while Yoda's and Obi-Wan's remain meaning that Anakin's descent into the dark side cost him his soul, he is not rewarded with immortality.

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So, you can dish them out but you can't take them?

That is interesting to know, thank you Alex.

Reread this thread and realize that this is how you always operate. Every time I express my opinions about a piece of music or a movie, you soon start expressing your opinions about me without further debating the issue at hand. Why is that, Stefancos? Are you that insecure?

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Alex Cremers

You are correct, I am a wretch at your mercy, always threatened by your superiour knowledge.

My post count means nothing while you walk upon this earth!

DAMN YOU....DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!

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Darth Vader wouldn't be redeemed at the end either.  The three ghosts would appear to Luke at the end, but Anakins fades while Yoda's and Obi-Wan's remain meaning that Anakin's descent into the dark side cost him his soul, he is not rewarded with immortality.

Well in the EU Yoda's ghost never appears, and Obi wans only in Truce at bakura and Heir to the empire.

Anakin's does to Leia in Truce at bakura too.

No much inmortality there...

And i'll post a thing that will creep many out:

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Darth Vader wouldn't be redeemed at the end either.  The three ghosts would appear to Luke at the end, but Anakins fades while Yoda's and Obi-Wan's remain meaning that Anakin's descent into the dark side cost him his soul, he is not rewarded with immortality.

You'd have Anakin punished for following his destiny? I mean, his destiny!? That's insane, but so is that whole aspect of Christianity. Pfft. God judging people after He put them on this Earth--without "evil," people, there would be no Star Wars films in the first place and no beautiful John Williams music, for any film really! Oh wait, :( religious talk is banned.

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Well...

Gary Kurtz has spent the better part of the last twenty years giving interviews about Star Wars, and not a great deal of time actually PRODUCING films. He parted with Lucas after Empire because he wasn't doing his job, which was not to be a creative consultant, but to keep control of the production and the budget.

And as for things like killing off Han Solo, I agree that both Han and Leia's character's were pretty much abandoned in Jedi, but death isn't necessarily the answer. I know everyone (Ford, Kasdan, Kurtz, etc) but George wanted to do it, so naturally people think it was a good idea. While it might have ratcheted up the drama for that first viewing, you'd have to ask yourself after the movie; so what was the point? If the arc of Han Solo's character is that he goes from loner, to caring about other people, to dead, what is an eleven year old supposed to think about that?

"Well, Timmy, it was just done for dramatic effect. Like in Lord of the Rings, when you thought Gandalf/Aragorn/Frodo/Faramir/Merry had died, but it turned out they actually were okay."

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While it might have ratcheted up the drama for that first viewing, you'd have to ask yourself after the movie; so what was the point?  If the arc of Han Solo's character is that he goes from loner, to caring about other people, to dead, what is an eleven year old supposed to think about that?

If he had died sacrificing himself for others to live, then his arc would have been complete. Also, it would most likely be the case that the other characters would be taken in new directions as a reaction to his death. No, I don't think it would have been pointless. Far from it...

Either way, anything has to be better than watching two hours of Harrison Ford wishing he could be somewhere else.

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Darth Vader wouldn't be redeemed at the end either.  The three ghosts would appear to Luke at the end, but Anakins fades while Yoda's and Obi-Wan's remain meaning that Anakin's descent into the dark side cost him his soul, he is not rewarded with immortality.

You'd have Anakin punished for following his destiny? I mean, his destiny!?

Let's ask the people of Alderaan what they think.

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