What exactally makes a particular score complex?

[Johnnyecks 33]

I have read in several different posts over the past year or so about 'this score' and 'that score' being good, or better than others, because it is "complex".

I have actually used that phrase when talking to family about a particular score, like "A.I", without fully knowing what it meant. I thought I knew what it meant, but recently I am doubting myself.

Yes, of course, I hear many many many different instruments being used in...lets say... "Minority Report", but does that make it complex? Is the written music within, difficult to play? Does that make it? Some of you will probably say that the music has different "layers" to it as well. What does that mean? Different things all happening at once?

I am really curious about this, becuase I love music just as much, if not more, as the best of you but have never fully thought about what "......this score is complex" really means, and what really makes it such.

NP: My own compliation.... "Alive" playing.

Best score listened to recently: "Minority Report" Still haven't finished it yet though, I love "Sean's Theme". Heart breaking.

[Guest]

Seriously, folks...answer the man's question! (I would, but I wonder the same thing myself)

[Morn 8]

I will give this a shot... But there are others that know it in more detail than me.

How hard it is to play has very little to do with complexity, we are talking about structure, not how hard it is to move your fingers to play it.

It's these things really. Rhythmic variety, use of non-basic types of harmony, layering (as in how much is going on at once and how well the layers are connected to each other), non-basic chord/harmonic progression, length of themes, how repeativative a theme is, a theme's rhythmic variety, and orchestration (that is balancing of the layers, use of instruments for subtle symbolism (ie horn = freedom trombone =evil), having a colourful range of pleasing textures, making sure that it's playable, thickness of textures, use of instruments according to what texture they have (ie, if you want harsh brass, you use a trombone, not a tuba in a harsh way, trombone is more naturally harsh) and similarly, combining of instruments according to their textures.

[Gamecube 0]

I think they basicaly meant that the more complex a score, the more themes, motifs, differences in songs, qickness, ect. Complex=more(I think)

[pianoman1 0]

From my own opinion, the complexity of a score is the "layers" that you mentioned... that refers to many different things occuring at the same time. It occurs when something like a Main Theme is being played (like at the end of Hymn to the Fallen) and another insterment (In this example the violin) is playing something completly different - if u were to hear it alone, you would not be able to distinguish it as a certain piece (unless ur obessesive like me - but thats a different story) In addition, there may be another layer doing something else (The bells at the same part in Hymn to the Fallen). The complexity of something may also refer to the difficulty of obsure rythem of the piece. Also possible chord progression, the way a chord can be transformed into a different one (really cool stuff!!!). But thats it in a nutshell. Hope it helped!

[Morn 8]

Well, Williams is definately the best with layering and orchestration, at least out of living composers. However, Goldsmith seems to have a slight upper hand with rhythmic variety But Williams is far above him with orchestration and layering.

However, this composer from the golden age has the best qualities of both worlds complexity wise I think. Alex North. Here is a sample.

Spartacus main titles (ie... kinda like his star wars theme A show of rhythmic variety and layering. It's atonal too. (a good Williams example of the same/similar would be Zam)

http://mfile.akamai.com/3171/wm2/muze.down....asx?obj=v10530

An example of good latering, Vesuvius Camp from Spartacus (a Williams example would be The Mecha World)

http://mfile.akamai.com/3171/wm2/muze.down....asx?obj=v10530

Viva Zapata main titles, complex rhythmic structure and layering, and atonal as well. (a Williams example would be Zam)

http://mfile.akamai.com/3171/wm2/muze.down....asx?obj=v10207

2001 waltz, very fine orchestration and layering (a Williams example would be Hedwig's theme)

http://mfile.akamai.com/3171/wm2/muze.down....asx?obj=v10323

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Talking about the layers of music reminded me of something I think is so cool in Williams' music. Take Jim's New Life (from Empire of the Sun) or the 1941 March. He first establishes the main theme/motif of the piece first, then somewhere in the middle adds a new one (or more than one). Then at the end, they are played simultaneously! They sound great apart, but even better when played together. It's really fun to listen for things like that.

Ray Barnsbury-waiting for a classical music buff to break his bubble and tell him how ordinary that is

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You want complex, then listen to Princess Leia's theme.

And I do mean listen.

Turn of the lights

Close your eyes.

It seems simple at first. Very deceptive.

Soon it builds, and builds, and builds.

By the end it is completely different, yet it is the same.

Joe, who wishes more MB'ers would "experience" this underappreciated piece of music.

[Morn 8]

Talking about the layers of music reminded me of something I think is so cool in Williams' music.  Take Jim's New Life (from Empire of the Sun) or the 1941 March.  He first establishes the main theme/motif of the piece first, then somewhere in the middle adds a new one (or more than one).  Then at the end, they are played simultaneously!  They sound great apart, but even better when played together.  It's really fun to listen for things like that.

Ray Barnsbury-waiting for a classical music buff to break his bubble and tell him how ordinary that is

Well, Barnsbury, it's slighty fugue like 8O That sort of thing was very comman in the baroque period. You might notice how Jim's New Life sounds some what barque like It doesn't seem to be a fugue, it does fugue like things though. In the barque peroid they were obsessed with layering . A fugue is a method of having several themes playing at once. Listen to The Shark Cage Fugue from Jaws Very cool invention the fugue is, invented by Bach infact.

And yes Joe, Leia's theme is pretty complex. I've seen some of the score sheets, at 3:00 it's very layered It's really more complex than it sounds.

[Marian Schedenig 8,261]

Joe, who wishes more MB'ers would "experience" this underappreciated piece of music.

I keep saying it's one of the most unique and amazing compositions I've ever heard.

Marian - who thinks the opening of Belly of the Steal Beast sounds like Williams originally wanted to make it a fugue.

[Ross 1]

You want complex, then listen to Princess Leia's theme.

And I do me listen.

Turn of the lights  

Close your eyes.

It seems simple at first.  Very deceptive.

Soon it builds, and builds, and builds.

By the end it is completely different, yet it is the same.

Joe, who wishes more MB'ers would "experience" this underappreciated piece of music.

Sorry if I sound pedantic or arrogant, but that's exactly how you listen to music. Aaron Copland said it better: "only deafs play music to listen to it in the background -- musical people think of the tune of a piece as the plot of a novel: you must never miss one step, you must see how if flows, how it develops, etc."

Johnnyecks, I think that only by listening to lots of music that way can you see the difference between complex and plain. No written words can describe it for you.

-ROSS, who finds it hard to theorize about music and not mention Aaron Copland or Roger Evans.

[Braveheart 0]

I have read in several different posts over the past year or so about 'this score' and 'that score' being good, or better than others, because it is "complex".  

I have actually used that phrase when talking to family about a particular score, like "A.I", without fully knowing what it meant. I thought I knew what it meant, but recently I am doubting myself.

Yes, of course, I hear many many many different instruments being used in...lets say... "Minority Report", but does that make it complex? Is the written music within, difficult to play? Does that make it? Some of you will probably say that the music has different "layers" to it as well. What does that mean? Different things all happening at once?

I am really curious about this, becuase I love music just as much, if not more, as the best of you but have never fully thought about what "......this score is complex" really means, and what really makes it such.

This is indeed a very good question because I too have been reading many reviews recently in which the reviewers end the entire review with a statement like "a very complex score" or a variation of that. It seems to me that when people label a score "complex" that they may not necessarily be referring to the actual music (i.e. chord progressions, harmonies/dissonance, note patterns) because when you think of it, many of the people who review film scores aren't THAT musically skilled to be able to recognize complex musical note patterns, harmonies and such.

I think the complexity may be referring to the way the themes are used and how the themes represent the film and what might be happening in the film or how a specific theme is so good with respect to the character it represents in the film. For instance, Anakin's Theme has that complexity of how it is able to mesh together that beautiful melody representing an innocent, harmless child, and the dark, evil aspects of The Imperial March which can also be heard in theme. That was the work of a genius, especially the end of the theme, in which we can hear the dark part of Anakin which will eventually evolve into Darth Vader. Also listen VERY CAREFULLY to the orchestration he used in presenting Anakin's Theme over the end credits of AOTC. Brilliant!! Absolutely!! That just tells you what has happened to that innocent, lovable little boy from TPM.

Due to his extensive usage of leitmotifs, a lot of John Williams score can be labeled as "complex." The way he states the themes and is able to integrate them with the on going music is stunning to me sometimes, my favorite example being the way he incorporated the force theme into the Throne Room cue. Using this theme here shows us that Obi Wan Kenobi may be gone but that his spirit was really still there with the other rebels. Also the way he variates on his character themes throughout the scores. Also listen for the way he quoted the theme for the Africans in Amistad (Track 1 in OST) in the theme for John Quincy Adams' character (Track 7 OST) and by this Williams shows us that these two people, the Africans and Adams, are on the same side in the struggle that was occurring in the film.

I've found a lot of Williams' actual music (notes, harmonies, etc) to be complex sometimes, especially in his use of brass which is more complex than what I've heard from any other composer. However I think that the initial use of the term "complex" really refers to the way the music functions in full filling its purpose.

[King Mark 3,631]

From my own opinion, the complexity of a score is the "layers" that you mentioned... that refers to many different things !

I agree,and to me even if I heard lots of classical music or other film music,nobody does it better than Williams imo

Ex:Last segment of The shark Cage Fugue,especially the concert version on the Bpops c.d.

Indy's theme mixed with short Round's in the movie End Credits of Last Crusade,and alternating louder and softer for each theme you get confused which theme is playing.

Last segment of Summon the Heroes

The Dark Side Beckons(Final Duel),ROTJ,When Luke gets pissed off.Here the layering is so complex but flows so perfectly that I can't hum it yet in my head.

I think the term for this technique is Polyphonic music.

K.M.

[pianoman1 0]

I think the term for this technique is Polyphonic music.K.M.

I thought it was the Leitmoff Technique, or is that just the technique for the devlopment of themes?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Indy's theme mixed with short Round's in the movie End Credits of Last Crusade,and alternating louder and softer for each theme you get confused which theme is playing.

Actually, that is called counterpoint.

Stefancos-

[King Mark 3,631]

I think the term for this technique is Polyphonic music.K.M.

I thought it was the Leitmoff Technique, or is that just the technique for the devlopment of themes?

No,i mean by polyphonic several layers of themes or lietmotives or melodies playing at once by different segments of the orchestra and still sound good,mostly Williams can do this well.

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Again, i believe the correct term for this is counterpoint.

Stefancos- who hopes he understood Marian's explanation.

[Morn 8]

Polyphonics basically means something that doesn't use chords but counterpoint for harmony

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

I suppose you think your pretty smart!!!

Stefancos-

[Uni 306]

Another word for "complex?" I just call it "busy" - and it is absolutely one of my favorite aspects of filmusic, especially the scores of John Williams, who seems (in my eyes) to be consistently better at it than anyone. I think I once mentioned a time when I was listening to the Mission Theme for NBC - a news theme, fercryinoutloud - and it brought tears to my eyes, for the sheer joy of how much was happening at once.

I think one of the great proofs not only of John's musical genuis but his musical appreciation as well is that he engages so much of the orchestra all the time. He doesn't ignore entire sections in favor of others for sustained periods, a sin some composers are constantly guilty of committing. He gets everyone involved, even allowing some of the more obscure and supporting instruments (tuba, bassoon, oboe) to take the front seat from time to time.

And Princess Leia's Theme is a great example, Joe, of how well he develops his themes. He's great at the complexities, sure, but he doesn't start out that way most of the time. He begins small, allowing the main line alone to establish itself; then he brings in the rest gradually, slowly, allowing it all to combine at just the right pace and to build into something magnificently grand - before (in many cases) quieting down again and reminding us of where it all began. Brilliant, profound, and absolutely thrilling to experience.

It's all an integral part of what makes him great....and what brings us here. Good thread, folks....

[Hlao-roo 389]

And Princess Leia's Theme is a great example, Joe, of how well he develops his themes.  He's great at the complexities, sure, but he doesn't start out that way most of the time.  He begins small, allowing the main line alone to establish itself; then he brings in the rest gradually, slowly, allowing it all to combine at just the right pace and to build into something magnificently grand - before (in many cases) quieting down again and reminding us of where it all began.  Brilliant, profound, and absolutely thrilling to experience.

I didn't quite like the way he did it with the Love Theme from Clones, though.

[ocelot 508]

Oh I did. It was very old school, but why not. It's the type of film that he can let go and be dramatic and, to use a word, shmaltzy... I had absolutely no problem with it at all.

[Hlao-roo 389]

But it seemed to me that Williams skirted the development process for the most part...from the very beginning, we get a full statement of the theme. From that point on, it's variously rendered instrumentationally, but little else is done with it. Simple reprises.

[Akipk 0]

A leitmotif is a theme that is associated with a certain character, like Luke or Darth Vader or jaws. It has nothing to do with thematic development or extra layers.

Counterpoint and polyphonic techniques are very much the same thing. Polyphonic means 'many different parts' as opposed to monophonic which means 'one part' and homophonic which means the composer uses harmonies instead of counterpoint to support the theme, and this is the one most common. The parts can be referred to as layers, for that's what they are, different layers of music. Fugue is something else entirly, but it also makes use of counterpoint.

The complexity of a score does not refer to whether or not a piece is actually better. The simpler a work is, the easier it is to listen too, too much activity is not always a good thing for the audience's ear will block it out.

The term is so general it's hard to define. It could be a number of the things discussed above, being varied rhythm, non standard harmonies (chords) chromatisism within the harmonies (which John Williams uses a lot, but also at appropriate moments so the effect of the chord colour is distinguishable ie, suddenly the music is darker.) The actual timbre of the instruments being used to good effect (referring to the different sound colours of strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) the form of the score (ie patterns) but most of all I agree it's referring to the layers, polyphony, counterpoint, whatever you want to call it.

The numbers of instruments does not make it complex, and playing in layers is challenging, but in a different way. It is not the technique or brilliance so much as it's the ability to follow the conducter to play at the right time, and to hear the other parts that are being played along with yours, and to recognise when you have the melody. The challenging part is more the teamwork.

[Morn 8]

The simpler a work is, the easier it is to listen too, too much activity is not always a good thing for the audience's ear will block it out.

Could always make the complexities more subtle for accessibilities sake

For example, Anakin's theme is atonal.

The numbers of instruments does not make it complex

You should have said not necessarily

[Akipk 0]

oops. sorry :oops:

[Morn 8]

Heh, don't be sorry, was a great post!