In defence of John Williams

[Akipk 0]

I was reading in another topic here someone's point that professors shun John William's music because it is for film, and they overlook the fact that he does write purely orchestral music without a visual medium as well.

When I travelled to Brisbane and met up with an old friend who is majoring in musicology, I mentioned I loved film music and he asked me who was my favourite film composer.

No prizes for guessing my answer.

He looked at me disdainfully and told me that JW was more a copyist than anything, for his themes were taken from Dvorak, Holst, and the list goes on. While I had to admit the similarites, he did not steal the music in anyway. He used this as a model to build upon. Anyway, this kid then raved about several composers I never heard of (and it's not like I'm brain dead and only know that JW exists) and told me that was true music, not common like JW, then left and didn't talk to me again.

Then we also had this lecturer who on his first day of introducing himself put down the Star Wars music. I asked him if he ever actually listened to anything but the general outline of the main theme, and he admitted no. I then shot him down by accusing him of making judgements on first impressions based upon other people's opinions and not exploring the music himself.

The music of John Williams is so contrasting in style that you can't put him in a jar and label him, his music always serves a purpose and adds that depth of colour into a movie. My favourite piece of music of all time is John Williams cloud city arrival, the chromatisism and suspense that he was able to achieve with a sudden outburst of strings with orchestra then just as suddenly returning to suspense is what music is truly about.

And we're talking about a guy who writes 1 and a half minutes of orchestral music a day. I get so annoyed at people who put him down.

[Morn 8]

Recently it seems to be about 3 minutes a day

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

LONG LIVE WILLIAMS!

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Happens to me all the time, too, that I have to fight against prejudiced people who have (consciously) heard very little of Williams's music and put him down because of that. But what do you do when someones comes in and claims that Hans Zimmer was the greatest composer ever, and that with "Broken Arrow" he had composed a masterpiece that Williams would never get anywhere near... :roll: That is the opposite party... On one hand the all-too-conservative "classical" music enthusiasts, and on the other hand the "computer music is the best thing ever" kids... Sometimes I have the impression we're caught in the middle. (And I enjoy classical music and much of Zimmer&Co's music as well)

-Chris, under the impression that bashing Williams seems to be a given thing by natural law.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I have had nearly the same kind of experience a few weeks ago. But unlike you I am musically ignorant and was not capable of mounting a proper defense.

It seems many musical purist feel John steals from everywhere. He isn't original at all I was told. The Love Theme from Superman is a ripoff of R. Strauss, Star Wars is a ripoff of Holst the Planets.

It all goes back to snobbery where if its popular it can be dismissed as no good. Its kind of like making fun at onehit wonders, except onehit wonders have made at least one mark on music that most will never do. I was told just because John's music is popular it doesn't mean its good. Now Phillip Glass on the otherhand...well I don't own any Glass and cannot judge him one way or the other.

I would agree when someone say John's music isn't classical music. John doesn't write classical music. Noone writes classical music. Dead people wrote classical music. I personally don't listen to much classical music, though I have a small collection, and I don't listen to modern orchestral music either. Modern classical music is an oxymoron, there is no such thing.

As a person who loves to debate and be argumentative, I hate it when I lack the basic knowledge to compete in such a debate. So anyone out there give me a synopsis for a defense when confronted with charges that John Williams blatantly steals his music from the classics.

[Akipk 0]

He uses ideas of melodic contour, but because the harmonies are altered, the melodies changed and orchestration is different, it is considered original.

Just because Holst paused on a brass augmented chord, and John did the same, doesn't make him a stealer. It's just an idea that he took and modified to his own needs, J.S. Bach learnt that way, so did Mozart, Mozart didn't write twinkle twinkle little star, but developed Bach's idea into his own. That is composing. Our best ideas are always taken from others and worked upon.

[The Five Tones 302]

That is such a tired old trip, bashing Williams' on the copycat angle. Anyone who uses it today is just parroting something they read, and journalists are the worst. In any larger, thoughtful context, one may view him as the important musical figure he is. As others have pointed out, appropriation is how composers work, and has been for centuries. Never has that been more apparent than with the advent of compositions made using samples -- hip hop, electronica, etc.

His harmonic palette is among the richest of any composer's. Akipk, I LOVE that you love the Cloud City music. It's awesome and pretty darn "modern" with its harmonies and so ethereal and ecstatic with the sudden entry of the voices. Too bad he tried to get that with the Swim to Otoh Gunga and failed.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Fivetones

Its good to see someone appreciate Close Encounters here on this board.

Surprisingly it is not well respected by the members of this community.

Thats not to say that there are not those among us who love it. Its just sad that it doesn't get the respect it deserves.

Joe, who after seeing Close Encounters at a sneak preview, thought he had died and been reborn.

[Morn 8]

It seems many musical purist feel John steals from everywhere. He isn't original at all I was told. The Love Theme from Superman is a ripoff of R. Strauss, Star Wars is a ripoff of Holst the Planets.

Well those 2 things are valid, but so is the fact that Mahler, Bartok, Stravinsky and others stole a lot of folk music (ie sort of the pop of those days).

If they say film music is poor because it is controlled by a visual medium, ask them about ballet and opera!

If they think it's dumbed down classical music show them something like CE3K, Harry Potter, AOTC or Images As comman would imply designed for the massives.

I personally don't listen to much classical music, though I have a small collection, and I don't listen to modern orchestral music either. Modern classical music is an oxymoron, there is no such thing.

What do John Adams and Phillip Glass write then?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I personally don't listen to much classical music, though I have a small collection, and I don't listen to modern orchestral music either. Modern classical music is an oxymoron, there is no such thing.

What do John Adams and Phillip Glass write then?

Modern orchestral music.

Morn, look up the word Classical.

[Morn 8]

The phrase Classical Music means orchestral music The word Classical comes from a peroid in the 18th century around Mozart's time. But the phrase Classical Music now stands for all the era's

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Websters 2002

Classical

Latin classicus 1559

of or relating to music of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. characterized by an emphasis on balance, clarity and moderation.

of or relating to, or being music in the educated European tradition, that includes such forms as art song, chamber music, opera, and symphony, as distinguished from folk, popular and jazz.

so I may be wrong in my use of the definition, when used as an emcompasing form of music. It may be classical in the modern sense, but it has not stood the test of time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ricard L. Befan said it best:

"Classical elitists suck!"

Stefancos- LOL

[Morn 8]

Their main problem is... they don't consider the music to be serious.

[Marian Schedenig 8,194]

"Classical elitists suck!"

So do film score elitists.

Marian - LOL

[Morn 8]

Like Figo?

[Romão 2,274]

I really annoys me when people that have only heard the star wars them and the raiders march (and little else) bash John Williams just becasue a lot of musically ileterate people listen to him. To some people, no one in this filed can be good musically and popular to the masses and the same time.

John Williams is the greatest!!!

[Ren 75]

I have been teaching about JW's music to my students all along, along side other greats (Bach Beethoven Gershwin etc.) We listen and mini-analyze the music and I teach that all music is equally important. I hope that the students that I teach today will be the JW admirers and aspirers of tomorrow.

The people who think JW sucks and haven't really heard a note, possibly were robbed of a great musical education.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

We all have stories like this to tell... Just on the other day, my brother had this experience too. He is a higthly acomplished classical guitar player (and a huge fan of the other JW, the guitarist, but has a profund admiration by our JW), and was talking with a friend who his doing a master degre on composition and orchestration. This guy wants to write musical and film music, and them my brother, begins talking that I have this huge film music collection and even run a site about Mr Williams and all, and that Star Wars is one of the most famous, and finest film scores ever written... and then this guy fires away: "But Star Wars is so weak music!" My brother was wordless for a second. He just couldn't believe. Here was a guy who would love to make a living out of film composing and says something like this... next maybe he would trash Herrmann or Korngold or Rozsa...

So my brother wakes up and gives the only possible answer: "So SW is very week music... OK, so you do it better!"

[Romão 2,274]

O teu irmão devia ter mandado o tipo á merda. Se calhar é daqueles que só conhece o tema central.

[Romão 2,274]

Sorry for the portuguese post, I just couldn't resist.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Like he said, only with more fury and anger.

Stefancos-

[jsawruk 0]

Hmm, I don't know how I missed this topic, but I assume its about me.

I have been know to constantly criticize JW from my own and from others' perspective.

I am merely analysing Williams as I would any composer... All composers have their strong points and their weak points. Taking every composer ever, you will see that Williams has more weak points than anyone would like to admit. This has nothing to do with the fact that he writes for film: film music is just as legitmate as any other form of musical expression. In fact, it probably is traced classically back to ballets, operas, and other program music.

Music theorists do not like John Williams, and music historians probably will not like him much, but they will recognize his social impact. In that respect, Williams has done for the USA what Verdi did for Italy: provide a new set of nationally recognized and admired music. You can hardly go anywhere without hearing JW music (it surprises me how many people tell me they've never heard JW music!).

I think my point is this: JW is a good composer, and an excellent film composer. However, his musical structures are somewhat limited (although both AOTC and Minority Reports are wonderful expansions to his lexicon), and draw too closely on his immediate and distant predecessors. However, is by no means the greatest composer ever, and may not even fit in the top 20 (or top 50, i don't know!). There is a difference between liking a composer's music and understanding a composer's music... sometimes I wonder if you do understand his music. I feel this site is more like JWFanatic rather than JWFan.

There is a lot more music out there than JW; listen to it and you will understand my conclusions.

May I further remind you that JW is my favorite composer, with Rimsky-Korsakov and Stravinsky next.

(All of my music professors, even my film music professor, hate the fact that I like JW, and very few students in my school like him as much as I do... then again, I'm the only student in the school who likes any art music post 1950. Too many of our students are obsessed with Mozart).

bawling

[Figo 2]

Look, I work at a radio station, and deal with a lot of classical music people in all areas of my life, and let me tell you, the snobbism is there, but it is by no means all-pervasive. There used to be this announcer I worked with that as soon as you even mentioned Williams would bark, "That guy never wrote an original note in his life!" It was an automatic response. Every time. But I know my crap, and his comparisons when pressed were always weak to say the least, very superficial, like the obvious Holst riff in Star Wars. When he asserted that the Superman march had been lifted from Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphosis, I knew he was full of shit. Still, there was no arguing with this guy (who, between you and me, was creepily manic depressive).

On the other hand, I work with a very knowledgable double-bassist who adores Williams, and other film composers, as well. In fact, his tolerance is a good deal better than mine! LOL When we get together during pledge drives we go on the air and play Steiner's Don Juan or Waxman's Prince Valiant or Williams' The Cowboys Overture, and then we jabber our insidious propaganda to our impressionable listeners. :evil:

We've had this discussion so many times, and yet somehow by the end I always wind up looking like the villain, because I can say, oh Williams took this from here and that from there. Williams is not a plagiarist. He does have his influences, and I'm sure when he writes in a given style, he does so intentionally, especially in a film like Star Wars, with its equally eclectic imagery. How many people who trash-talk him are able to pull off a credible imitation of Prokofiev or Walton or Copland or Gershwin and still manage to sound completely like themselves? There is a world of difference between writing "in the spirit of" another composer and outright theft.

It's not a crime to be successful. In his own way, Williams is as important to motion pictures as Strauss was to the Waltz and Sousa was to the March. Strauss and Sousa both became enormously wealthy. They were very popular in their day, embraced by the "unwashed," and yet have only grudgingly been accepted into the established classical repertoire. In fact, neither composer is generally heard in concerts devoted to the standard classics. It's "light" music, you see. Which is fine. We can't be expected to pass our entire lives trudging across the bottom of the Rhine with Alberich.

Williams is not Beethoven, but hell, he's not even trying to be! He excels at what he does, which is to translate in music the director's vision onscreen and to communicate his impressions to a wide audience. Brahms was an outspoken admirer of Strauss, and even Schoenberg acknowledged Gershwin's superior gift for melody. (The two were tennis partners, if you can imagine that!) Should it then be a crime for people in so-called serious music to come forward and say, "You know, John Williams is probably the best known living composer of orchestral music. His movie themes are more consistently and more widely recognized than those of anyone else. He's not Bruckner, perhaps, but boy -- can this guy write a hell of a tune!"

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Amen to this last one.

[jsawruk 0]

Look, I work at a radio station, and deal with a lot of classical music people in all areas of my life, and let me tell you, the snobbism is there, but it is by no means all-pervasive. [/quoue]

There is more snobbism in classical music than you think. I myself am quite a victim of it, and always have been. Classicists hate me, and I am by no means a snob, but I do know my theory well.

When he asserted that the Superman march had been lifted from Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphosis, I knew he was full of shit.

I was unaware of this correlation... I shall investigate it further and give you a musicologically sound analysis.

Still, there was no arguing with this guy (who, between you and me, was creepily manic depressive).

You have a problem with manic depressives? :cry:

We've had this discussion so many times, and yet somehow by the end I always wind up looking like the villain, because I can say, oh Williams took this from here and that from there.  Williams is not a plagiarist.

I never said he was a plagiarist, although there are at least 2 or 3 instances I can think of were it does fringe plagiarism, although in most of those instances, it is indeed an hommage rather than stealing.

How many people who trash-talk him are able to pull off a credible imitation of Prokofiev or Walton or Copland or Gershwin and still manage to sound completely like themselves?  

I bet I could.

Brahms was an outspoken admirer of Strauss, and even Schoenberg acknowledged Gershwin's superior gift for melody.  (The two were tennis partners, if you can imagine that!)

That sounds like great inspiration for a piece of music: George, Ira and Arnie: The Musical .

Should it then be a crime for people in so-called serious music to come forward and say, "You know, John Williams is probably the best known living composer of orchestral music.  His movie themes are more consistently and more widely recognized than those of anyone else.  He's not Bruckner, perhaps, but boy -- can this guy write a hell of a tune!"

No, but most people fail to include the words living, orchestral, and film. To say that he is the greatest composer of anything ever to me, as a composer, is an outrage.

Its quite amazing how many of you fail to read the fact that JW IS MY FAVORITE COMPOSER OF ALL TIME (even though I'm sharply critical of him). I'm critical of every composer, so why should I make an exception for him?

[Figo 2]

I was unaware of this correlation... I shall investigate it further and give you a musicologically sound analysis.

Well, thank you, Mr. Spock!

Its quite amazing how many of you fail to read the fact that JW IS MY FAVORITE COMPOSER OF ALL TIME (even though I'm sharply critical of him). I'm critical of every composer, so why should I make an exception for him?

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I was writing a response specifically to your post. Actually, a more reasonable assumption is that we were actually writing at nearly the same time.

No, but most people fail to include the words living, orchestral, and film. To say that he is the greatest composer of anything ever to me, as a composer, is an outrage.

Who do you think you're talking to? I'm Figo, damn it. I could mop the floor with you! I'm not one of these diaper-wetting mama's boys who automatically votes Williams on each and every poll! On your guard, little man, for this is thy doom!

You have a problem with manic depressives?

No, but I have a problem with people who post at message boards who suffer from delusions of grandeur. LOL

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You know jsawruk, this thread wasn't aimed at you, but your a good example. You seem to be taking it too personal. There is nothing wrong with being sure of your convictions, its another to feel persecution.

So let me ask, are you a creepy manic depressive who has delusions of granduer. Why ask figo a question like you did, when the answer is a plain as your face. figo wouldn't say he was a creepy manic depressive if he fully at ease with him. Remember he used the word creepy!!!

It doesn't seem fair that you expect the average person to be so pointed when they say John is the greatest living composer. Should they say be required to say greatest living film composer of orchestra music. No. That is asking more than most would say or possible know.

And really who is to say John Williams isn't the greatest living composer. Its all subjective. So if he's not who is. Some obscure composer who manages to write music that only musical snobs and elitist listen to. John Williams cd's sell alot, some go gold, pssssst. so, its popular, its music for the masses. Common folks music. Its salmon roe, while so & so is the finest cavier for the ears. Being popular or prolific has no bearing on greatness, one way or the other. The most popular band in the world is generally also to be consider the best in the world. That holds true whether your talking Beatles or U2.

We here at JWFAN.net put John Williams on a pedestal because we look up at him, to him. It is now obvious that there is another pedestal which is even higher, but instead of people looking up to it, we are being looked down at.

typical

Joe, who will still love JW even if the NYTimes comes out tomorrow and say

John Williams' is not the greatest composer, story continued on page 43.

[jsawruk 0]

You know jsawruk' date=' this thread wasn't aimed at you, but your a good example. You seem to be taking it too personal. There is nothing wrong with being sure of your convictions, its another to feel persecution.

[/quote']

It sure seems like it and everyone has been aimed at me lately. Are you sure you're not all against me?

It doesn't seem fair that you expect the average person to be so pointed when they say John is the greatest living composer.

Well, you are right there. I keep forgetting that these people are not musicologists. Having been a music major has really changed my views on music. What's even more surprising is that before I was a music major, I thought the Beach Boys and the Beatles did great music. Then when I was a music major, I totally disregarded them. Now, having completed my music major, I realize that they really did some amazing stuff.

We here at JWFAN.net put John Williams on a pedestal because we look up at him, to him. It is now obvious that there is another pedestal which is even higher, but instead of people looking up to it, we are being looked down at.

I don't understand that last part, but I also look up to JW, perhaps more than you do. If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't be a composer. Period. He started my entire musical interest, and I wish to emulate him musically as best as I can.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I assure you we are not against you. We might not agree, but we are not against you.

Still I would watch your back if I were you :wow:

LOL LOL

[Akipk 0]

Jsawruk, I'm new to this board, I haven't actually seen one of your posts until now. The thread was not aimed at you, but rather at the two people I know in real life who say a composer is bad before actually sitting down and listening to a piece of music, which is not what you have done. They seperate themselves from knowing film music because they are snobs and it is beneath them, yet you have not, and that makes you different to them. You don't seem arrogant in pointing out JW's mistakes, I know he makes them too, he has his low points, and I agree with you that he is not the greatest composer ever, but I think he is the most enjoyable composer to listen to that I have heard.

[Morn 8]

So my brother wakes up and gives the only possible answer: "So SW is very week music... OK, so you do it better!"

Heh. He should have said what the hell are you talking about, why is it weak music?

Hmm, I don't know how I missed this topic, but I assume its about me.  

I have been know to constantly criticize JW from my own and from others' perspective.

It's not about you, it's about people who just brush Williams off as a hack who composes 'pop music'.

I think my point is this: JW is a good composer, and an excellent film composer. However, his musical structures are somewhat limited (although both AOTC and Minority Reports are wonderful expansions to his lexicon), and draw too closely on his immediate and distant predecessors.

What do you mean limited? Perhaps you confuse versatile with limited, the fact that he's not always using the most 'artisitically high' structures. But I think that is one of the best things about him, he uses all the devices of music compared to just modern devices. And have you heard his concert music? There is where you find modern musical structures

Draw too closely on his immediate and distant predecessor's.... couldn't the same be said for Mahler who combined the techniques of many composers to form his style? Beethoven too who owes a lot to Mozart.

I feel this site is more like JWFanatic rather than JWFan.

Fan mean fanatic LOL

Too many of our students are obsessed with Mozart

And you say Williams structure is limited LOL

Schoenberg acknowledged Gershwin's superior gift for melody.

Schoenberg considered himself conservative because he thought he didn't innovative enough to be considered progressive! :wow: He was after all quite melodic.... He said he was just doing what he felt he needed to do, a sort of destiny like belief, he wasn't trying to push music to new artistic heights or he would have done more to reach his own standard. I don't think he was an elitist by any means. Infact many of the more landmark progressive composers like Liszt and Stravinsky you'll find are very open minded composers compared to being elitist.

And really who is to say John Williams isn't the greatest living composer. Its all subjective.

Figo will tell you that objective ways are the only way to judge a composer's greatness. I disagree with that, but anyway.

[Ricard 2,245]

"Classical elitists suck!"

So do film score elitists.

Marian - LOL

[Ricard 2,245]

JW is a good composer, and an excellent film composer. However, his musical structures are somewhat limited (although both AOTC and Minority Reports are wonderful expansions to his lexicon)

However, is by no means the greatest composer ever, and may not even fit in the top 20 (or top 50, i don't know!). There is a difference between liking a composer's music and understanding a composer's music... sometimes I wonder if you do understand his music. I feel this site is more like JWFanatic rather than JWFan.

There is a lot more music out there than JW; listen to it and you will understand my conclusions.

These have to be the most stupid, ridiculous, arrogant, insulting and ignorant remarks I've read in the whole history of this board.

You know absolutely NOTHING about the music we listen to and our understanding of Williams music, film music or music in general.

Next time please DON'T ASSUME what you DON'T KNOW.

Thanks.

[jsawruk 0]

You know absolutely NOTHING about the music we listen to and our understanding of Williams music, film music or music in general.  

Next time please DON'T ASSUME what you DON'T KNOW.

Now I think that is the most insulting remark because I certainly know a lot about music, film music, and JW. Have you ever scored any films, or even been asked to?

And to say that I know nothing about music is absolutely ridiculous. I've only been composing music since I was 8. What more do you want me to understand?

I was right all along; everyone here is out to get me. :cry:

(P.S. - Musical structures means harmony, melody, rhythm, form, and the all inclusive "sound" (timbre, dynamics, orchestration, etc) dimension. Most of you I assume took structure to mean form. I understand how film music is form and its inherent limitations in formal schemes. What I meant about JW is that his harmony and melody are not up to his full potential. Schumann would've torn Williams apart by the way.)

[Morn 8]

P.S. - Musical structures means harmony, melody, rhythm, form, and the all inclusive "sound" (timbre, dynamics, orchestration, etc) dimension.

I know, my comments were about these

You know absolutely NOTHING about the music we listen to and our understanding of Williams music, film music or music in general.

Obviously he ment our understanding of it compared to classical music, he only errored in that we understand classical music. LOL Anyway, his arguement is quite argueable, I just do not agree with it Ricard, if you ever talk to a real classical elitist you will encounter much much more extreme arrogance Do not take it so heavily.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I was right all along; everyone here is out to get me.  :cry:  

you do have a persecution complex. Do you find yourself wanting everone to be out to get you. Quick look over your shoulders. Hey there is a shadow under your door.

Hey everyone here is jsawruk's address

555 elm street,

anytown, PA USA 06660

Tel# 999-555-1212

email address is jsawruk@selfimportant.com

we're coming for you.

[Ricard 2,245]

Please re-read my post.

[Ricard 2,245]

Ricard, if you ever talk to a real classical elitist you will encounter much much more extreme arrogance

And what makes you think that I don't talk to 'real classical elitists' all the time?

Do not take it so heavily.

I take it as heavily as I want.

[jsawruk 0]

I take it as heavily as I want to as well.

Everyone is out to get me

[Morn 8]

[Ricard 2,245]

I take it as heavily as I want to as well.

Did you reread my post?

Everyone is out to get me

Perhaps you're asking for it.

[Morn 8]

And what makes you think that I don't talk to 'real classical elitists' all the time?

That fact that you were so harsh on jsawruk. Makes it seem like it is the first time you've ever encountered something like it!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

To jsawruk

This is a JW fan site, so offcourse if you are gonna say that Williams is not the best composer by far people here are gonna wanna argue with you.

Also, i have stated this before, and i'll state it again, you do NOT have te be trained in classical composition to understand music, music is a universal language that speaks to EVERYONE.

You might be able to identify certasin styles of orchestration, harmony etc...etc...that others (me included) can't, but music is so much more then that, music is emotion.

Stefancos- who is not out to get anybody.

[Ricard 2,245]

And what makes you think that I don't talk to 'real classical elitists' all the time?

That fact that you were so harsh on jsawruk. Makes it seem like it is the first time you've ever encountered something like it!

Perhaps to you. And perhaps you are not aware that not all classical elitists assume that we are ignorant regarding classical music, and needless to say they don't have such an arrogant attitude as jsawruk shows. I wonder who has more to learn about this.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I am as ignorant as the day is long, when it comes to understanding musical theory, but I know what I like and I like JW.

jsawruk, make sure you check under your bed and in your closet.

Morn, I have confirmed your flight reservations from Sydney to Pittsburg, Pa, there will be a rental car waiting for you.

Harry, Justin, figo, you should already have your emails with directions.

I'm driving too.

[Morn 8]

Well, many people here are ignorant regarding classical music.

You might be able to identify certasin styles of orchestration, harmony etc...etc...that others (me included) can't, but music is so much more then that, music is emotion.

That is true, but he was ignoring all subjective aspects in his judgement.

[jsawruk 0]

I am not trying to be arrogant, and if I come across that way, I am sorry, but it probably is what happens when you try to argue and its 2 am.

I wholly respect that you guys like JW; I like him too, as much or perhaps even more than you do, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I love JW's music a lot. But, as with ANY other composer, I am trying to understand it objectively. That is all I am trying to do.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Ricard 2,245]

I am not trying to be arrogant, and if I come across that way, I am sorry, but it probably is what happens when you try to argue and its 2 am.

No, it happens when you assume too much:

"There is a difference between liking a composer's music and understanding a composer's music... sometimes I wonder if you do understand his music. I feel this site is more like JWFanatic rather than JWFan.

There is a lot more music out there than JW; listen to it and you will understand my conclusions."

I like him too, as much or perhaps even more (????) than you do,.

See what I mean?

But, as with ANY other composer, I am trying to understand it objectively. That is all I am trying to do.

In my opinion, objectivity and art are opposite terms.

:cry:  :cry:  :cry:

Please, no more victimism...

[AHerrera83 0]

jsawruk:

If I may venture my opinion, I think you're probably the biggest victim of musical elitism in this board, but NOT from us.

You obviously love JW's music, or you wouldn't be here. You also happen to be in music school, in which the peer pressure as to your tastes must be astounding. You yourself said that during your education you were made to disregard the music of The Beach Boys and The Beatles. Now, with a little more maturity, you've come to appreciate them again.

The problem with classical elitists is that they close their minds, and nowhere is this more common than in a specialized school environment. You have to work on two fornts: first, continue your education, and second, learn to ignore the B.S. that pops out of most of the pseudo-intellectuals you're surrounded by; 99% of them are just full of it and you'll be lucky if you find a handful of people you can actually respect.

Take what they tell you with a healthy grain of salt. The validity of music does not begin and end with Mozart.