gkgyver

I can't judge the film mix because I have seen neither TFA nor TLJ. I'm judging this as an album experience. Williams scores are usually always the best album experiences you could get. And to be fair, I never heard a Star Wars score after I watched the film. Even the OT Soundtracks I heard before watching the movies because I was into Soundtracks way before I bothered to watch any of the Star Wars films on DVD.
You like making comparisons to Shore it seems; and if I compare TFA and TLJ to FotR and TTT, I never once felt while watching/hearing TTT that I'm listening to a repackaged FotR the way I get that feeling in TLJ. And TTT is as much of an immediate story continuation as TLJ apparently is. Yet, while being unmistakably written in the same vein as FotR, immediately feels somewhat different in colour, also because we are within 10 minutes of the film introduced to the grand new Rohan theme, which is immediately recognizable, and not comparable to Holdo's theme, which to me is only recognizable once it reaches its last 4-6 notes. And the movie even starts with a grand setting of the Ring theme, in a way it was never heard in FotR, so it immediately feels fresh.

Or maybe they recognise that not everything with the SW brand is necessarily good?

Hey, I love the Episode 1 UE!

But its appearances are center-pieces of the score. Its also very cleverly derived from "Across the Stars" so it feels like you've heard it before, and more than three times.
 
And again, its not just a leitmotivic thing, its an issue of musical color, as well. The only new instrumental choice here is solo piano at the end credits, and its over before you know it.

All TLJ did for me was make me go back to the prequel trilogy soundtracks, and make me realize how underappreciative I was at the time. Not for ROTS, that was always my favorite of the 3, but certainly AotC. That finale gives me goosebumps. All the finale of TLJ does for me is make me say "This again?"

Duel of the Fates, Anakin's, Darth Maul's, Qui Gon's, Jar Jar's, The Trade Federation - that's more than enough for a Williams' score. Here, there's three motifs, and maybe another one hiding somewhere but I doubt it.

It's not the lack of new themes that bothers me. It's the reliance on music that is pasted directly from old cues. consider ROTS, which used the force theme a lot but in very interesting ways IMO. Or the set pieces (ie ROTS opener) that don't introduce many new themes but are still different than previous music we've heard. Instead of just tracking in TIE fighter attack.
 
which is not to say there is no new music in TLJ - there's just less. Some of it is good, some is not 

Lord Zimmer: 
I don't think you're allowed to have an opinion here other than that Williams can do no wrong and every score of his is genius. 

True, but this score is coming from a composer that has been known to base his scores on thematic material, especially for this series. Williams is the first to take pride in the size of his catalogue of themes.

Where the hell did I say that?
 
And even you "blame" Rian Johnson for the rehash that is a large part of this score, it doesn't change the final product.
 
 
You can find creatives ways to write new thematic material to keep the score fresh. You can write new themes for existing characters that are derived from the existing themes but are nevertheless separate, signaling the character's transformation, of which this film had a lot; Finn, Poe, Luke and even Rey and Kylo could all have had new themes to co-exist with their pre-existing ones, to signal the development of their character.
 
Think about The Two Towers: on paper that fim didn't require much in the way of new themes, everything that's new about it are Rohan and the Ents, but Shore wrote over a dozen new themes, giving two new themes to Gollum, who already had a thematic identity, giving the Uruk Hai two new themes, etc...
 
In Wiliams' catalogue, how may new themes did Revenge of the Sith really require? Really, the only new character to require thematic material is Grievous. But he wrote a lament for Anakin's fall to darkness, which he derives from "Across the Stars" so the assocations of that melody carry over to the new one, he wrote a motif for the duel, a motif for Mustafar which he wove into the duel material, etc...
 
With each score in this series and others, Williams always stressed that "90% of the thematic material is new" or something like that. Always. And that's understandable: composition is a creative process and how creative are you really being when you're just rehashing existing material? To see him all but abandon this rule with this sore is disheartening.
 
Even if Johnson made him do it (which I believe may be the case) that doesn't change nor excuse what we got.

Its one that is based on the composer's self proclaimed (and very vocally so) desire to base each new score in the series predominantly on new thematic material, which - for the first time - doesn't apply to this score.                                                                                                                                                     

Having listened to the album a few times and seen the film once, my initial impression is...not great. There are some strong moments, but overall this probably the weakest John Williams Star Wars score in my view. The main reason is there was far too great a reliance on existing themes and cues. There are so many characters in the Star Wars universe, that the impression I got was JW (or perhaps Rian) was using every excuse he had to lean on music that had essentially been written for the previous 7 films. "Oh this scene involves Leia, let's essentially cut-and-paste from her concert theme. And now the Resistance is fighting, let's do the same for them. Oh look, Leia is talking about Han, we'll have to use their love theme." And some of the pasted material doesn't really make much sense (I won't say which to avoid spoiling anything). As many have pointed out, the end credits piece is hopelessly scatterbrained.
 
The best piece is by far "The Rebellion is Reborn" which is very strong. The best new theme is the one for (I think?) the Resistance that shows up in "Rebellion is Reborn." Although I think it might have been better suited to represent the prequel's Republic - it sounds very regal and tragic to my ears. And I must say, the fact that JW is able to lean on his preexisting work is a testament to the incredible library of themes he has developed over the decades. He could have easily written a passable score without creating a single new theme.
 
I was not blown away by TFA, but at least there was a fair amount of newness and cohesion there. Maybe TLJ will grow on me overtime, we'll see. My hope is that this is more a result of Rian Johnson's direction than JW's (lack of) inspiration with the saga. If so, perhaps Episode 9 will be more inspired.
 
And for the record, I love the prequel scores and think they easily stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the original trilogy.

Dunno, but I'm about one post away from adding him to my ignore list. 

He's a deplorable human being.

I'm not sure. Attack of the Clones had two love themes, the mystery motif, the Kamino motif and a motif for Dooku. Revenge of the Sith has Battle of the Heroes, Grievous, Anakin's Lament, a motif for Mustafar, that piece from "another happy landing" and the first recurring statement of one of the fanfares associated with Curoscant.
 
This has Rose's theme, the Last Jedi motif and the Desperation motif - half of either of those two.

Of course that's what he wanted, but we ended up with more than that. When I hear that moment in the music, it takes me back to Mustafar for a split-second.

Who said its a quote? its a near-quote. Anyone who knows his Revenge of the Sith well with recall Battle of the Heroes at that moment. And watching Episode 8, this flashback  to episode 3 is wildly inappropriate from a narrative standpoint.
 
If you recall, what were the first impressions of the score from preview audience? "sounds like ROTS."
 
 
Each Star Wars score has always been its own thing, interconnected with the other scores. To find excuses for this album's lack of identity in it being "an extension of The Force Awakens" is just that - making excuses.
 
If it were the third film I would have been more inclined to accept this excuse, because of the concluding nature of the score, but here, it doesn't work.
 

Listening to his output of the last 10 years circa, I'd say what he is still suited for and excels at are his own concert compositions, drama movies, Spielberg films, and generally lower key films where his incredibly matured and experienced sense for flow and drama can come to full fruition.
He is not really suited anymore for writing a 120+ minute score full of action and a gazillion notes per page, including conducting, because that is very exhausting at his age, and that includes Star Wars films. And it shows that it's exhausting.
The highest creativity gets lost in that exhausting process, and that also shows.
 
I'm glad he can do another trilogy, but then he should really really stop.

Then we must have listened to different scores in the early 2000s because even just based on orchestration, both TFA and TLJ immediately separate themselves from his Star Wars/Fantasy scores of the early 2000s. TLJ and AotC for example couldn't be more different in colour and diversity. Not to mention Phantom Menace or Prisoner Of Azkaban. The originality and impact of these beat TLJ any day. Hell, Tintin beats it. Crystal Skull beats it, and that had its share of nostalgia, too.
 
You won't get any discussion from me that the score of TLJ is incredibly dense and energetic, and I have no problem listening to something like The Fathiers and thinking "that is really technically excellent".
The problem is, I don't judge a score, or any music, on techniques. I judge it on how it involves me, and how it carries me along. It's not about the number of notes and gestures in each bar, it's about the meaning each note holds. And John Williams has been able for decades to capture a certain intangible "it" factor in his music, no matter how complex the cue. And with age - he is EIGHTY FIVE for Christ's sake - and his elaborate and intricate style of writing action and chase music, it's inevitable that the highest level of creativity gets lost when you take it upon yourself to write, orchestrate, and conduct 2 hours of complex Star Wars music.
I listen to this action and chase music in TLJ and TFA (more in TLJ though), and find myself saying "this is really amazingly complex", but I couldn't remember it an hour later because Williams lost the core of the music among all the boom-tzzz and runs and rips. But that's the quality Williams scores always had, being emotionally involving while being outstandingly complex. And when TLJ is emotionally involving and gets you hooked on a motif or a theme, it's recycled down to the orchestration.
The rest to me feels like Been There Done That.
 
Sure, if you listen to the CD 10 times per day, you remember it, but that's just memorizing. You never needed to listen to a Williams score a dozen times in order to play a few highlights in your head afterwards. For god's sake, the "Luke's Island" theme is a rhythmic figure that would have been a bypassing Moment in a Prequel score.
 
You can't look at me with a straight face and say the constant recycling of existing material pre-TFA doesn't take away a significant chunk of enjoyment away from the score. How can you listen to Canto Bight for example, and not play the Tintin Main Titles in your head? 
I'm well aware this isn't popular here, but in my opinion, Williams recaptured the flair of Indiana Jones ten times better than he does it with Star Wars here.
 
My stance on this isn't insulting in the least because it clearly says I'd want Williams to spend his precious remaining years writing music he excels at, and stop doing things like writing these elaborate Star Wars movies completely on his own, where he just spends a lot of energy while not reaching the level he used to. I just think at his age, he needs to work wiser, not harder.
And since Williams has a contractual thing, where he needs to sign off on any Star Wars music not written by himself, don't think there is not at least a bit of ego involved in him doing this trilogy, where he would find the thought of anyone but him scoring these main canon films not appealing, to say the least.
I stand by my opinion that the better option would have been for Williams to write a good amount of suites for the film, and work with someone he trusts to use and adapt them. This way, we probably would have gotten more creativity from Williams as far as themes and set pieces are concerned, and the rest of the underscore would have been just as sufficient.
A Chamber Of Secrets situation, with Williams being more involved instead of writing something else at the same time, would have been the better solution. It's not like the application of themes in TLJ as it is, makes a hell of a lot more sense than the application of themes in CoS.
 
The temp track excuse surely is a joke? What the hell do you think, John Williams never heard a temp track before? Is he magically bound to it?
 
Anyway, enough ranting.
Please stop pretending like everything but orgasmic enthusiasm is some form of personal insult directed at Williams or members here, or some form of disqualification for this board. And stop pretending John Williams is some kind of saint, above all human flaws such as ego.
Nobody can count the number of times other well-respected composers on this board were on the receiving ends of relentless bashing. Nobody seems to care every time. 

What crystal ball are you looking into that gives you insight into both the recording process and the inner workings of JW's mind? It's one thing to have opinions, it's another thing entirely to assume as fact things which you have no knowledge. That's the only thing I find astounding.

I also seem to recall a near-quote of Anakin's Betrayal; and the return of the SATB choir and chu-daiko also shows the footprints of Revenge of the Sith, as well.
 
I would have been more okay with it if it were based on some other, more closely related scores in the Star Wars narrative. Sadly, Revenge of the Sith and these themes have nothing to do with this film.
 
 

Why are you here?

They don't stand out on the album because save for Rose, they're extremely average.

Williams of the early 2000s would never write a new score which:
is so thin on new thematic material.
recycles familiar themes in familiar settings.
uses said themes to excess and to little narrative purpose (e.g. The Force).
sticks so close to the temp-track and even lifts material from other compositions (e.g. the long goodbye)
 
Previously, I assumed this was Johnson's fault, but if his remarks on letting Williams do his own thing are to be believed, than we can't help but infer that Williams just wasn't as "into it" as before, which is understandable after 40 years and seven films.
 
I like the score, but its not one of his best efforts in the series, or in his career in general. That it is unfortunate, doesn't make it any less true, and no amount of wishful thinking will undo that.

I agree. TLJ is the least interesting Star Wars soundtrack, not counting Rogue One.  
Best movie since Empire, but worst soundtrack.