The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,348]

What?

Its a six movement work!

[Incanus 5,714]

Shore doesn't treat it as a Bree motif, rather just a an allusion to a specific moment, and that moment happened to be a setting of the Hobbit Skip-beat.

But, more specifically, that moment happened to be set in Bree. It is precisely Breeness which the two occurrences have in common, and it's in order to flag up that common Breeness that the passage was repeated. It's also not purely a setting of the Skip-beat motif, but a fragment of music which incorporates that motif as one component; the more prominent aspect of the music is the melodic line B - Bb - C# - D I would say. It's not a "Bree theme" in the same way that there's a Shire theme and a Laketown theme and a Gondor theme, obviously, but we need some sort of nomenclature if we're going to note these kinds of associations/repetitions, and surely it seems reasonable to give this bit of music a "Bree" tag. I'll bet that if Doug Adams was writing a book on this score it would say something like "the same caliginous variations on the Skip-beat figure that accompanied Frodo's arrival in Bree".

So it is still the Hobbit Skip-Beat, which might have or might not have been given thematic relevance specific to Bree or it might be reprisal of music for the sake of reprisal to evoke recognition and nostalgia.

[KK 3,307]

See, this is my whole problem with the impact of Doug's book.

Doug wrote an amazing book as a way to shed some light and provide us better understanding as to how Shore varied his themes and used them in unique settings. But the byproduct of that is this nature of "overclassification" by the film score community. Sometimes, what you're hearing isn't necessarily a new theme guys! Ask yourself "does this minimal variation really warrant a whole new thematic label?". Or "does the fact that this has appeared only ONE other time in the past trilogy, in an identical setting/scene/moment/location/etc make this new a theme, or just an allusion to 'incidental music'?"

[Faleel 5,348]

#1 No.

#2 Yes! (Well, actually a motif)

[Incanus 5,714]

See, this is my whole problem with the impact of Doug's book.

Doug wrote an amazing book as way to shed some light and provide us better understanding as to how Shore varied his themes and used them in unique settings. But the byproduct of that is this "overclassification" by the film score community. Sometimes, what you're hearing isn't necessarily a new theme guys! Ask yourself "does this minimal variation really warrant a whole new thematic label?". Or "does the fact that this has appeared only ONE other time in the past trilogy, in an identical setting/scene/moment/location/etc make this new a theme, or just an allusion to 'incidental music'?"

Yeah Doug somewhat wrote himself into a corner. People are more than ever aware of the highly thematic nature of these scores thanks to his book and thus begin labeling things new themes when they just might be new variations on old ones. I am as guilty of this as the next fan.

Then again we do have the examples like Bard and His Family theme dipping a bit too close to Bilbo's music and becoming very hard to tell apart from it and other musical moments in the films that people might say resemble each other when listened to by us without any musical background but we would get "similar but not the same" answer from Doug.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

What?

Its a six movement work!

I guess I can consider it that way with the scores, but the films... Ugh.

What?!! No love for the dwarven foodfights, burbing and general mayhem and goblin songs?

[KK 3,307]

Then again we do have the examples like Bard and His Family theme dipping a bit too close to Bilbo's music and becoming very hard to tell apart from it.

Yeah, that's a failing you can't dismiss. Also mirkwood vs. smaug, though the former goes for a much more textural effect.

It's possible that with AUJ, PJ just told Shore to ditch everything (maybe because he got so much criticism about familiarity and all) but the major new themes and so Shore reused the idea with Bard?

[Faleel 5,348]

What?

Its a six movement work!

I guess I can consider it that way with the scores, but the films... Ugh.

I was not really talking about the films! (though I can understand where you would get that)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

What?

Its a six movement work!

I guess I can consider it that way with the scores, but the films... Ugh.

What?!! No love for the dwarven foodfights, burbing and general mayhem and goblin songs?

You forgot the nudity!

[Faleel 5,348]

Then again we do have the examples like Bard and His Family theme dipping a bit too close to Bilbo's music and becoming very hard to tell apart from it.

Yeah, that's a failing you can't dismiss. Also mirkwood vs. smaug, though the former goes for a much more textural effect.

Mirkwood only really sounds like Smaug in that one statement in Flies and Spiders though.

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

So it is still the Hobbit Skip-Beat, which might have or might not have been given thematic relevance specific to Bree or it might be reprisal of music for the sake of reprisal to evoke recognition and nostalgia.

All of these things and more!

See, this is my whole problem with the impact of Doug's book.

Doug wrote an amazing book as a way to shed some light and provide us better understanding as to how Shore varied his themes and used them in unique settings. But the byproduct of that is this nature of "overclassification" by the film score community.

These kinds of discussion were going on long before the Doug Adams book came out!

I half agree with you on the "overclassification" objection, but it's that the labeling-and-listing type of classification doesn't have the flexibility to give an adequate perspective on the scores.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

We can't! His armour is like tenfold shields, his teeth are swords, his claws spears, the shock of his keyboard is a thunderbolt, his Admin powers a hurricane, and his breath death!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Or 9 dwarves.

Serious speaking (which is of course always) Jason's list is a great resource and a good place to recheck things theme-wise. Plus he has been updating it constantly so it is also up to date. Same goes for your video thread BBoal. It has given a good notion of how the pieces as written and presented on the album line up or could possibly line up with the finished film.

[Faleel 5,348]

“Ban-hammer! Black Ban-hammer! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and I have always recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true Admin under the Forum, go now and speed well!”

[Incanus 5,714]

“Ban-hammer! Black Ban-hammer! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and I have always recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true Admin under the Forum, go now and speed well!”

So Jason is more of a Thor-like entity with a hammer? Cool!

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

Serious speaking (which is of course always) Jason's list is a great resource and a good place to recheck things theme-wise.

Indeed, an index of appearances is essential!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Is there any opinion here on the recurring descending motif, heard in Moon Runes, On The Doorstep, The Woodland Realm, Courage and Wisdom, Ironfoot and couple of other spots in the BOFA samples?

It plays when the dwarves are put into their cells in the Woodland Realm, shortly before the "map reading cave" is revealed in Rivendell, right after Thorin's Theme in Courage and Wisdom, and after the variation on Girion's theme in Ironfoot.

[Jay 37,364]

Can you be more specific with your timestamps?

[Incanus 5,714]

Is there any opinion here on the recurring descending motif, heard in Moon Runes, On The Doorstep, The Woodland Realm, Courage and Wisdom, Ironfoot and couple of other spots in the BOFA samples?

It plays when the dwarves are put into their cells in the Woodland Realm, shortly before the "map reading cave" is revealed in Rivendell, right after Thorin's Theme in Courage and Wisdom, and after the variation on Girion's theme in Ironfoot.

Yeah I took note it comes back in BOFA too. Timestamps for the appearances please. Anyway it must be related to the dwarves I suppose.

[KK 3,307]

Oh I know exactly what you're talking about.

It's the descending phrase at 7:38 in the broadcast Jason.

Yeah, I guess it has something to do with the quest maybe?

[gkgyver 1,645]

You can also hear it 10 seconds into the 90 second sample of Gathering of the Clouds.

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

Moon runes, feasts of starlight, lunar-sensitive keyholes: it's the Motif for Photons Which either Did not Originate from the Sun or Were Reflected off a non-Terrestrial Object before Reaching Middle-earth.

[KK 3,307]

Wow! You're the next Doug Adams!!

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

Nah, I just hacked into his iPad...

[KK 3,307]

What are you doing with his iPad?....

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Ahhh the "moonlight" theme... probably my favorite new theme from these films.

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

What are you doing with his iPad?....

Fixing his theme names and classifications.

[Incanus 5,714]

Ahhh the "moonlight" theme... probably my favorite new theme from these films.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HhgBq_qb2Y

[Faleel 5,348]

shortly before the "map reading cave" is revealed in Rivendell

I think that is the theme I called Dignity of Dwarves, you can also hear it in the unreleased portion of An Ancient Enemy.

[Incanus 5,714]

shortly before the "map reading cave" is revealed in Rivendell

I think that is the theme I called Dignity of Dwarves, you can also hear it in the unreleased portion of An Ancient Enemy.

Something like that. Fortune and glory, fortune and glory.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[wdb408 3]

Here's one that seems to have been overlooked. Moria/Khazad-dûm music (from FOTR) at 2:02-2:37 in AUJ 1-09.

[crocodile 8,012]

Yes! Always thought it was that!

Karol

[wdb408 3]

The chords are exactly the same, just slowed down a lot and it would seem in groups of three, rather than four. I actually half expected the Fellowship Theme to make an appearance at the end.

It caught my attention when I was revisiting the score the other day. Then I double-checked out of curiosity and it just so happens that that track ("An Ancient Enemy") underscores the flashback of Azog's orcs taking Moria. Not a coincidence.

[Faleel 5,348]

The string rhythm in A Thunder Battle sounds like the percussion rythm underneath the aleatoric brass as the avalanche comes down on the Fellowship in FOTR (The Pass of Caradhras)

[wdb408 3]

Is there a similar thread with breakdowns of the LOTR themes/tracks? Would be very helpful to ultimately have these all in one collection.

[Samuel Walters 0]

Not sure about threads here, but this site is fairly comprehensive. In any case, it represents a ton of work and is worth looking at.

[Incanus 5,714]

Indeed. A Magpie's Nest is a wonderful resource although I don't think her listing of theme appearances is entirely comprehensive. She unfortunately doesn't provide tracks or tracktimes mainly because the site was began and built over several years before the complete recordings were released even though she updated the information after that.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

We all know Jason is awesome!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's a nice guy.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That was King Marks doing!

Blame Canada!

[BloodBoal 7,538]