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Posts posted by Mattris
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On 24/01/2024 at 7:10 AM, Chen G. said:
Frankly, I don't think Mattris can conjur up anything in this thread to quite top the saying that earned him a place in my signature. But I'm more than willing to see him try.
Just in case you missed it, Chen... In my fourth post on the previous page, I logically deduced how the Saga needed to continue past Episode VI, especially after the prequels gave context to the OT:
After being instructed by the very individuals who weren't able to foresee - or do anything to prevent - the utter destruction of the Jedi Order and collapse of the Republic they served, why was it expected by the audience that former farm boy Luke Skywalker - along with his sister (Princess) Leia who sought out one of the individuals for help - would have been able to create a lasting, prosperous New Jedi Order and New Republic? (This, after their victory over a galactic empire by way of mere good intentions, violence, and mysterious magic powers.)
In other words, what did the next generation of characters learn or experience throughout their journey that made clear that the story ended Happily Ever After... and would have not continued with the same things happening again with the subsequent generation?
The answer: Nothing. The sequel trilogy showed what the audience should have expected: The same/similar events happened yet again. The story must continue still.
52 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:No, Mattris, that's not what allegory is. Allegory is when one thing, typically an idea, is used to represent another thing.
Animal Farm is an allegory. Lord of the Flies is an allegory. But a story about how a democracy falls (ala the prequel trilogy) isn't an allegory for how a democracy falls. It's just a political story about how a democracy falls.
I'll grant that Lucas was probably trying to create, in a clumsy way, an allegory for what he perceived as 2000's Bush-era politics, but if that's what he was going for, it's no what he got. It doesn't work any more as allegory than the OT does as a supposed allegory for Vietnam.
The primary definition from Oxford Languages:
al·le·go·ry
/ˈaləˌɡôrē/
noun
a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
Star Wars is precisely this, yet the 'reveals' are still to come.
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1 hour ago, JTW said:
Seriously, how old are you, mate?
I answered your three questions from pg. 187 regarding my perspective on Star Wars.
Why don't you answer mine regarding the story of Star Wars?
Until then, you'll get no response from me.
On 24/01/2024 at 9:53 AM, A. A. Ron said:Exactly. Mattris is one of those people who needs to see purpose in every little thing, probably because it’s too scary to acknowledge that life is chaos and there’s no one steering the ship.
What are you afraid of?
19 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:Well I’m convinced.
"You will be. You... will be."
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59 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:You might've avoided those responses by adding a "just" to that sentence.
Star Wars is not just about space ships, lightsaber duels, or physical wars.
I expected those responses because I know the Star Wars audience's attention has been naturally drawn to the visually-stimulating, exciting action/adventure elements of the story. (I was for a long time.) So the audience's focus is understandable, especially for those who view the IP as escapism... a simple story of good vs. evil that clearly ends 'happily ever after'.
But I view these elements as a distraction. The true purpose of Star Wars has nothing to do with space ships, lightsaber duels, or physical wars.
It's really a spiritual battle.
- Richard Penna, JTN and Trope
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Yes, politics... hence, allegory.
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"That is why you fail."
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On 23/01/2024 at 7:28 AM, JTW said:
Looking forward to getting to know his wisdom of years-long enlightenment.
On 22/01/2024 at 3:41 PM, Jurassic Shark said:Let us know...
Hint: Star Wars is not about space ships, lightsaber duels, or physical wars.
On 23/01/2024 at 4:02 PM, Nick1Ø66 said:@Mattris, serious question for you and the other Star War experts here.
What's the deal with Vader sitting at a fully set out dinner table on Cloud City and saying that he and Boba Fett would be honoured if Solo, Leia and Chewy joined him?
A more serious question: If Han, Leia, and Chewy were the "bait", what exactly did Vader's "trap" entail?
On 24/01/2024 at 9:53 AM, A. A. Ron said:Exactly. Mattris is one of those people who needs to see purpose in every little thing, probably because it’s too scary to acknowledge that life is chaos and there’s no one steering the ship.
Chirrut Imwe (in Rogue One): There is more than one kind of prison, Captain. I feel that you carry yours with you wherever you go.
Eedy Karn (in Andor): Everything says something, Syril. I've tried to make you understand that, but you've resisted.
On 24/01/2024 at 2:17 PM, JTW said:Yep, totally delusional.
My interpretation of the Star Wars story is based on the fact that its foundations rest in mythology, allegory, and fairytale. Based on where the story progressed, multiple stated theories of mine have been proven accurate. They were formulated based on the only primary evidence that exists: the literal contents of the official canon material, dating back to the 1976 Star Wars novelization.
Your interpretation is surface-level only - primarily the OT - with the assumption that Star Wars has changed for the worse. If you have any evidence of this, I haven't seen it.
It's not me who is delusional.
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6 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:To me, your continual returns to this thread border on the masochistic. But hey, whatever flies your X-Wing.
Nah, I'm just testing my thoughts and theories with (presumably) real people. This response to my point and direct question causes me to think you do understand the logic but just don't want to give me credit... a consistency in this thread.
5 hours ago, JTW said:I'm not into S&M, so I won't be feeding the baby troll anymore.
But he's not a sadist, he's simply delusional.
Unlikely. I'm using the totality of the literal words of the Star Wars canon to interpret the story from the point of view that it is, by definition, a mythological allegorical fairytale.
Your conclusions are based primarily on the assumption that your surface-level interpretation of the (single trilogy) story is correct and that the seemingly endless string of reported chaos at Lucasfilm over the last decade bolsters your overall assessment.
Mind you, the sources of these 'reports' are unconfirmed, as are their allegiances. In truth, these presumed 'behind-the-scenes controversies' are most likely falsities put forth to distract the masses. But that won't stop people like you from believing them, will it? Surely, so many couldn't have been played as fools. That's impossible!
Like it or not, my arguments over the last (nearly) five years have withstood scrutiny. Criticisms of my approach - and those of the Star Wars story itself - based in the underestimation of those in charge have been dismissed as a illegitimate, illogical, and most importantly, unproductive.
Those who continue to proclaim 'Star Wars is bad now... or, at the very least, has taken a turn for the worse' is a fruitless endeavor and antithetical to the very purpose of this story which was created to instill hope and happiness to its audience.
3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:"Escape" Star Wars disenchantment? Mate, you spend all your time here in the Star Wars Disenchantment thread.
Seems to me you're still pretty stuck in the doldrums.
You're clearly not a stupid person, so I can only conclude that you're either one Bantha short of a herd or the greatest troll in the history of JWFan. If it's the latter (and I certainly hope it is), I salute you sir.
I remember I was saluted here after the (not so) shocking TROS teaser trailer dropped and after certain specific theories of mine were confirmed in the film itself. Mark my words, I will be saluted again... sooner or later. While I don't require such admiration from strangers who habitually doubt and disagree with me, I appreciate the debate and will get a laugh out of it.
The fact that I'm alone here in my perspective makes me unique, Nick. That's all.
- JTN, greenturnedblue, Erik Woods and 1 other
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15 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:
Just to clarify, I was referring to Mattris continually returning to this thread to say the same things over and over again and convincing absolutely nobody of them as a result.
The only thing I'm trying to 'convince' anyone here of is that I have a more insightful - and ultimately, beneficial - interpretation of Star Wars than those here who tease me... those who claim that 'the Star Wars sky is falling', that George Lucas is being betrayed by the very people he hired, that trilogies can be ignored, that the current writers and executive creators have no plan for the story, and/or that Star Wars is a lame, escapist story with no intended meaning beyond its surface level: Families should stick together and ultimately, violence is the answer.
Do you not understand my logical reasoning as it pertains to the progression of the story past Episode VI, as depicted in the sequel trilogy?
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Ironic. It's you who shouted ~200 words at me.
In a tiny fraction of that, why don't you write out what you think Star Wars is about? What do you think are its intended takeaways?
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The saying certainly applies to the cyclical story of Star Wars.
After being instructed by the very individuals who weren't able to foresee - or do anything to prevent - the utter destruction of the Jedi Order and collapse of the Republic they served, why was it expected by the audience that former farm boy Luke Skywalker - along with his sister (Princess) Leia who sought out one of the individuals for help - would have been able to create a lasting, prosperous New Jedi Order and New Republic? (This, after their victory over a galactic empire by way of mere good intentions, violence, and mysterious magic powers.)
In other words, what did the next generation of characters learn or experience throughout their journey that made clear that the story ended Happily Ever After... and would have not continued with the same things happening again with the subsequent generation?
The answer: Nothing. The sequel trilogy showed what the audience should have expected.
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On 24/01/2024 at 4:55 AM, JTW said:
Everything.
Of what am I "ignorant"? How am I an "immature child"? What about real life do you think I don't understand? I asked you for specifics. Try again.
On 24/01/2024 at 4:55 AM, JTW said:And just because Georgie boy says so, it has to be so, right?
What else would he say? That he just wanted to make a successful space soap opera for kids and make tons of money? He himself admitted that it was meant for 12-year-olds. But he wants to feel important so he has said all kinds of crap to make it all feel important and meaningful. BS. It's just a MOVIE, an unoriginal, but highly entertaining kids movie. Only 12-year-olds and delusional people think that there's more to it than that. And the first person to admit it is George himself.
Dude, I've already answered your question, but you're so delusional that you can't or won't comprehend.
No, what I see in the literal canon material - dating all the way back to the OT scripts and novelizations - tells me what I theorize is so.
A few years after ROTJ, Sir Alec Guinness said about Star Wars, "I hear now people disparaging the work, and I say, 'No, no. It's been done with great care and imagination. There's more to it than you think.'" The accomplished actor said he initially dismissed the work as 'science fiction' but spoke with Lucas and took the part, likely because he was told of the work's deeper meaning.
Who are you to call me of all people "delusional"? What theories have you been right about? What Star Wars insight or interesting takes have you shared? A recommendation to ignore two entire film trilogies - everything but the OT - and to interpret this mythological allegorical fairytale based on its surface level, as would a small child? No thanks. I'll continue on a path that will actually benefit me as I continue to grow as a person... as we all should strive to do. (Such was the stated purpose of this story.)
I'm positive that I "comprehend" a great deal more than you about Star Wars and its relevance to "real life". You've clearly hit a dead end and are lashing out in ignorance and frustration.
On 24/01/2024 at 4:55 AM, JTW said:STAR WARS IS A KIDS MOVIE SO REALLY IT'S NOT ABOUT ANYTHING IMPORTANT THAT ADULTS SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH...
Then why are you here, clearly concerned with it? I'm beginning to think you don't have it in you to type out what I've asked you repeatedly:
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE STORY OF STAR WARS?
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On 24/01/2024 at 12:23 AM, greenturnedblue said:
You heard it here first folks. Not even George Lucas, creator of Star Wars, is competent enough to understands Star Wars
George Lucas is not a 'Lucasfilm employee or contractor'.
On 24/01/2024 at 2:28 AM, JTW said:Yes, I believe that you believe so in your mind. But everyone else here on the forum thinks otherwise. That should tell you something about this.
From my extensive contributions in this topic, I've already proven that I have 'expanded my interpretation beyond a relative surface-level'. Even with a swath of corroborating canon excerpts and logical reasoning, so many here doubted my theories (Emperor Palpatine's return, Rey's relation to him, Snoke being a puppet, Ben Solo being manipulated, clues to all this within John Williams' themes for these very characters, etc.). But I was right in my predictions.
Regardless of what you and others truly think of me - or merely what you post publicly - nothing will ever change that. Moving forward, just imagine what else I might be right about...
On 24/01/2024 at 2:28 AM, JTW said:You believe in it, because you have Peter Pan complex. You don’t want to be an adult and see that it’s a children’s story that is meant for 12-year-olds. If you’re an adult and talk about Star Wars like it was some kind of important moral teaching and all that you wrote, it makes you look like an ignorant immature child who doesn’t understand real life.
Perhaps you should examine yourself: Taking the time to aggressively 'diagnose' someone who has a different take on Star Wars than you... and appears to be on the right page. What exactly in my writings makes you think I'm "an ignorant immature child who doesn’t understand real life"? Why should someone so informed - and proven right - as me give your dismal, worthless, surface-level Star Wars take a smidgeon of credence? How exactly would that benefit me... or anyone?
On 24/01/2024 at 2:28 AM, JTW said:Of course Star Wars has a message. For daydreaming 12-year-olds. Not for adults who live in reality.
Exactly. Lucas designed these films from other, pre-existing material, there’s hardly any original thing in it.
Lucas has explained a million times what Star Wars is about according to him. They are just movies, so if you watch them and think they’re more than what you see on screen, again, you are emotionally and intellectually immature.On the contrary, if you think the Star Wars story and implied message isn't more than what you see on screen, "you are emotionally and intellectually immature." George Lucas has spoken about Star Wars many times over the decades, making it clear that there's more to it than the audience has picked up on.
Seems you're another one of those people who talks a big game in response to me but seems to be incapable of answering the most simple question, one that you really should have ready after so many bold Star Wars claims and assumptions throughout this forum. So I'll ask it again:
What do you think is the story of Star Wars?
On 24/01/2024 at 2:41 AM, Chen G. said:Okay, enough with the cerebral stuff, lets get back to Mattris Comedy HourTM
Oh, so knowledgeable and humorous you are, Chen. But without a lick of wisdom.
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18 hours ago, JTW said:I have three questions for you, Mr. Mattris.
1. Who might those "select Lucasfilm employees/contractors" be?
2. Are you REALLY that naiive to still believe that George Lucas or anyone has an "objectively correct interpretation" of the story that has been stretched and bastardized again and again for the last 47 years by several people and parties?
3. Are you in some sort of cult or something? What would you need a "years-long journey of enlightenment" for? This is Star Wars, a fricking space soap opera designed for 12-year-olds, not buddhism or existentialist philosophy.
If you are a 12-year-old boy, then it's all right that you still believe in this children's story. But if you're an adult, then I think you need serious help and fast.
1. Kathleen Kennedy, the executive producers, writers, and directors of the canon works (films, shows, novels, games, comics), all members of the Lucasfilm Story Group, Dave Filoni, Jon Faverau
2. My interpretation is that the story and grander intent of Star Wars has remained consistent, even with the newest installments. There was always a grand plan, and Kathleen Kennedy is seeing it through. Any who believe otherwise have an objectively incorrect interpretation of the story... and might be putting too much stock in the Lucasfilm-designed artifice meant to keep the masses distracted from their real plans.
3. Considerable thoughtfulness was required to escape the doldrums of disenchantment and ignorance. I managed to expand my interpretation beyond a relative surface-level. I believe in this 'space soap opera children's story' because I think it was intended to teach its audience valuable life lessons and universal truths... not only to 12-year-olds.
Why do you think Star Wars doesn't have a message based in grander areas of thought or belief? George Lucas has been abundantly clear that he designed his story from these-type works of the past. Perhaps you can let me know what so many have trouble with:
What do you think is the story of Star Wars?
- Erik Woods, Chen G. and Trope
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On 22/01/2024 at 4:06 PM, Chen G. said:
O hush you! Can't you see we're talking about food?!
We happen to love food!
Nah, I prefer to test and show the limits of your Star Wars comprehension.
On 22/01/2024 at 4:09 PM, Chen G. said:Oh, I understand. I understand the restaurant ruined the main course on purpose so they can then serve another main course they've made in secret and it would be all the greater!
Oh man, forget food, I need a drink!
I must say, I missed your making light of my 'wacky' theories and predictions. But in doing so here, you concisely demonstrated one of the biggest misconceptions of the Star Wars audience: the assumption that the OT was "the main course" with all other Saga Episodes as unnecessary 'dishes' than can be largely - if not, entirely - dismissed.
When you are eventually shown the sheer scope of your folly and failure, I think you'll need more than a drink. You may just feel the need to go home and rethink your life.
Fortunately, Rian Johnson said he'll be at the bar if you need him.
On 22/01/2024 at 4:20 PM, Jurassic Shark said:That's the dessert.
Nah, it'll be the pay-off of all the set-ups.
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2 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:
There's only one Star Wars, I know what the story is. A boy, a girl, and a story as big as the universe.
The Star Wars Saga tells one story. George Lucas was clear that his work was created to showcase valuable life lessons and universal truths.
By 'the end' of their adventurous experience - portrayed in the Original Trilogy - what lessons and truths did this boy and girl learn that would lead the audience to trust that they would have created and led a lasting and successful Jedi Order and 'New' Republic after such institutions had been relatively recently destroyed, as shown in the Prequels?
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40 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:
An interpretation is also an opinion.
No, one's opinion is derived from their interpretation. (For instance, considering Star Wars primarily a work of 'escapism' would be the basis of one's interpretation. Calling the story - or any particular volume of it - 'good' or 'bad' would an opinion.)
48 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:Which is the objectively correct interpretation? The one you have today, or the one you had a few years ago when you said Kathleen Kennedy & Rian Johnson didn't know what they were doing, making it up as they went along and were ruining Star Wars?
Just in case someone asks me what the objectively correct interpretation of Star Wars is at a dinner party, I want to be sure I have it right.
Only George Lucas and select Lucasfilm employees/contractors are aware the objectively correct interpretation of this story. I'm very sure I am also, having gone on a years-long journey of enlightenment.
What do you think is the story of Star Wars? What do you think I think it is?
39 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:I am a slow learner.
You're not the only one.
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We'll continue without you, then.
@Chen G., I think you're smart enough to know that being well read doesn't necessarily yield an astute - or objectively correct - understanding of Star Wars. I liken your snobby stance to the countless Star Wars fans around the world who think their passion or high number of film viewings means they 'get it'... certainly better than 'the new Lucasfilm'.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. One either has a firm grasp of the story as George Lucas intended - and how Lucasfilm have progressed and will, eventually, complete - or one does not. (Time will tell.)
My questions are open to everyone, of course.
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Here we go again...
On 03/05/2023 at 5:52 AM, Chen G. said:That "some things are stronger than blood."
Except if you're a Skywalker: in that case you get a get-out-of-jail-free-card for multiple war crimes.
In Star Wars, what things are implied to have been stronger than blood? Do you agree with this sentiment?
Which Skywalkers? What war crimes? What is the 'get-out-of-jail-free-card' you speak of?
On 21/12/2019 at 6:57 PM, Chen G. said:There is no Skywalker Saga, as such.
There’s a six-film series (plus a few spinoffs) that tells of a struggle between the two sides of The Force, with two members of the Skywalker family, Anakin and Luke, thrust into its midst. It’s haphazard in its overall storytelling and in quite a few of its entries (particularly those relating to Anakin), but it’s still an enjoyable and, on-the-whole, cohesive film series.
Then there are three more films just ‘cause.
Why do you say the six-film series is on-the-whole cohesive? What story did it tell? What was its purpose to have been made and shared with the world? Since Star Wars is, by definition, an allegory, what do you think were George Lucas' intended moral and political takeaways?
Why don't you consider Episodes VII, VIII, and IX as part of the "series"?
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On 12/01/2024 at 1:45 AM, Groovygoth666 said:
To highlight the criticism that Voller should have died in the prologue, @Mattris offered something to counter this, the idea of destiny being what saved him. Personally this is equal to saying Voller had plot armor. He's the big bad and therefore is immune to anything as he needs to be there at the end of the movie.
The concept of destiny is profound. It dictates that, when challenged or injured, some may overcome, succeed, and/or live. Others may wither, fail, or die. But crucially, it raises the notion of preconceived purpose... that all individuals have a part to play, perhaps geared toward a grander eventuality beyond one's personal life.
In stories like parables, allegories, and fairytales, this is especially true.
It was Voller's destiny to be removed from his pursuit of Indy... and to reappear later in the story, only to ultimately fail: the destiny of all Indiana Jones villains. It would make sense that his train incident was portrayed so violently to draw attention to the relevance (and strength) of destiny as the primary narrative device of the overall story.
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With five Indiana Jones films to go on, it should have been realized and expected by now that the villains perish near 'the end' of the stories due to their greed and lust for power.
Within the context of the film's complete story, Voller had to survive his little train incident so that he would eventually travel back in time, only to die without attaining what he sought.
Simply put, the events throughout this story were meant to be, making sense of the film's title 'The Dial of Destiny'.
- Nick1Ø66, Mr. Hooper and JTN
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6 hours ago, Demodex said:
And it was written by George Lucas so that is what he is telling his audience.
No. It's what George Lucas had the medical droid say to Obi-Wan and Bail Organa:
"Medically, she's completely healthy. For reasons we can’t explain, we are losing her... We don’t know why. She has lost the will to live."
The medical droid made this statement no doubt aware that Padme's vitals were heading in the wrong direction. It should be noted that two massive reasons were presented in this scene that support a conclusion that Padme would have had a desire to live:
- She had just given birth to healthy twins.
- Speaking of Anakin, Padme's final words were, "There's still good in him. I know there is..."
It simply doesn't make sense that someone as strong-willed and hopeful as Padme would suddenly 'lose the will to live' when she had so much to live for. Of course, there is another explanation for her inexplicable death, one that fits with the overall narrative.
On a similar note: We know that Obi-Wan infamously told Luke that Darth Vader "betrayed and murdered" his father. We then found out later on that this was not exactly true... well, perhaps from a certain point of view.
Star Wars is a allegorical, mythological-based fairytale. Instead of taking so many things in the story at face value, perhaps you should be paying attention to its subtleties and truly thinking. "Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them."
6 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:Does anyone else hear a fly.... buzzing around.....
Don't worry. I'll take care of it. I'm always happy to help the impaired.
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1 hour ago, Demodex said:
The same thing it is anywhere else.
I don't think redemption means the same thing anywhere and everywhere. Regardless, you should be able to define the term if you're going to make a blanket statement like that.
1 hour ago, Demodex said:There really isn't anything to put all together. It is so ridiculous to imply we don't understand a simple story.
I'm not 'implying' you don't understand this simple story. I'm outright stating it.
The fact is, there are many elements of Star Wars that have not been given a definitive explanation or resolution.
Think about it. What elements of Star Wars have been given a definitive explanation or resolution? What are its themes, takeaways, and lessons? Now nine episodes in, what exactly was/is the story?
The ambiguity and mystery of Star Wars make the story intriguing... and keep the fans discussing, complaining, and coming back for more. They should keep coming back... because it's not even close to being over.
1 hour ago, Demodex said:You don't think he did? Luke probably found bodies laying around.
I know that Ben Solo didn't kill the students. The Rise of Kylo Ren shows us.
1 hour ago, Demodex said:And what Lucas told his audience.
No, it's only what the medical droid supposed to Obi-Wan and Bail Organa.
1 hour ago, Demodex said:Oops. I forgot we're all to stupid to understand.
Not everything said by the Star Wars characters can be true because different characters say conflicting things. Sometimes, a single character will make contradictory statements within the same film.What characters say, do, and think depends on their intent, knowledge, and point of view. This is Drama 101... and critical to understanding Star Wars.
Star Wars Disenchantment
in General Discussion
Posted
Again you feel the need to diagnose me, @JTW. Let's have a look at you.
Perhaps on some level you've realized the weakness of your position on the topic of Star Wars, especially compared against mine.
Rather than attempt to strengthen or clarify your position, you've continued trying to diminish mine.
You are clearly desperate to make me look bad even though my unique perspective has already been proven right on multiple fronts.
You might hope that aligning with those 'against me' will finally dissuade or demoralize me. Rest assured, it won't.
To summarize:
You have presented no logical reasoning, no credible/corroborated evidence based on facts.
Your entire thought process is driven by hardened opinions, having assumed so much for so long.
You have no record of correct narrative/character predictions.
You have never quoted from the Star Wars canon, excerpts that could bolster your interpretation of the story.
You consider Star Wars "a kids movie" but have offered no insight, no interesting takes, and can't even tell me what you think the story is.
You think the current makers of Star Wars don't understand the IP.
You have no proof of any controversies happening at Lucasfilm, nor any proof of cancelled projects or fired film makers. (News reports aren't proof. Project announcements are not proof of pre-production or that said projects were ever intended to have been made.)
You think those personally hired/appointed by George Lucas have been betraying their mentor/former boss, actions that could diminish his work and legacy.
You don't like Star Wars beyond the OT, going so far as to dismiss its further installments from the overall story.
The fact that your simplistic, pessimistic Star Wars conclusions are held by many people means absolutely nothing.
All told... You shouldn't be surprised when you realize that your stance on Star Wars was weak, naive, and proven to have been objectively wrong. But you probably will be.