Classic FM's Top 100 Soundtracks. Goldsmith is in...JUST!

[Quintus 5,399]

Bowie:

I personally feel that pretty much any score could have worked in LOTR. The film MADE the score. But you could argue that for Star Wars, the score MADE the film.

Well, without getting into another lotr vs 'Wars debate I have to disagree with part of your comment. It is true to an extent that Williams' score raised the pulpy space adventure (EpIV) into the realm of the epic or opera, but Peter Jackson's movie didn't 'make' the score, as you suggest. Howard Shore's work is a massive sweeping palette of music which not only complimented the film/s, but also found an audience on headphones and hi-fi's, regardless of the movies.

Sure you could say that it was a direct result of the movies success, but that wouldn't make sense. Besides, the same could be said about the Star Wars score/s - something Williams himself suspects. But thankfully good music will always be just that - good music. Sometimes good music can be found in not so good films. Take a look at The Phantom Menace for evidence.

By your own reasoning, Williams score for TPM should have 'made' the film, but alas it didn't. A film needs to stand on its own two feet before the score recording has even taken place. There has to be a high degree of film making artistic integrity all ready there.

So by your book does that mean that Williams failed where Shore succeeded?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

By your own reasoning, Williams score for TPM should have 'made' the film, but alas it didn't. A film needs to stand on its own two feet before the score recording has even taken place. There has to be a high degree of film making artistic integrity all ready there.

Lucas' tinkering of the movie due to Coppola and Spielberg suggestion made the slaughtering of the score.

but Peter Jackson's movie didn't 'make' the score, as you suggest

Well if Shore had done what he wanted and not what Peter asked, LOTR scores would be now under James Newton Howard

[Miz 139]

Umm, why are people talking about the thematic development over the trilogy? The number one entry is presumably just The Fellowship of the Ring.

Nope. They don't know to what they refer actually. Quite simply, Classic FM don't know what they are talking about.

The chart is titled "What's the greatest piece of film music of all time?" and they've just said 'Star Wars' and 'Lord of the Rings' because...funnily enough...they don't know how to deal with film scores. They, and their naive, Daily Mail-reading voters, are voting for 'the music in Star Wars' and 'the music in Lord of the Rings', or whatever narrow-minded conception they have of each of these.

Their last poll had LotR in the top-spot because a few Tolkien fansites urged their userbase to vote. The same may have happened here, but even if it hasn't, this enough for me to lose what little faith I have in democracy.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

You sound like a Separatist!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

04 - In order to avoid controversial off-topic debates, political and religious references are NOT ALLOWED on any of the forums.

[ridan 0]

Also, while I agree that the use of the Nature theme at the charge out of the Hornburg and at the storming of the Pelennor Fields is questionable,

On the contrary, I've never thought of that theme as being the 'nature' theme, but rather the 'hope' or 'force of good' theme. When thought of in this context its perfectly suits all the moments you mentioned, especially as it plays at the arrival at the Pelennor.

In those cases, it can be classified as such, but notice that all of its prior appearances, including its appearance in FotR, all have to do with nature. Of course, Tolkien always drew a parralel between good vs. evil and nature vs. industry, but all of the appearances befor the Hornburg have something to do with nature. I suspect the charge from the Hornburg might have been tracked.

But when time comes, I'm sure Doug Adams wil explain this better (and probably more accurately) than I can.

And he has: see here near the end of the page.

[gkgyver 1,645]

i assumed you were backing up geekgyver saying that the complexity (musically is not that complex IMO) and cohesiveness of these scores made them best best ever written, therefore deserving place 1)

You're the last one who should call other people geeky.

I didn't say LOTR deserves #1 because it's the most complex score ever written. In fact, I never said LOTR deserves #1. I'm just fed up by people who talk about LOTR scores when it's evident they don't know what the hell they ARE talking about.

What I am saying is that LotR taps into Tolkien's themes and emotional palette so well that it's easily amongst the 5 or 3 most powerful scores of all time.

There are subtle and ingenius connections that any Star Wars score can only dream about.

You're talking about purely musical development, I'm talking about subtext; and most unfortunately for SW, that's really what makes a score stand out for me.

Maybe you're right, LOTR shouldn't be #1 film score, it shouldn't even be compared to other film scores.

Their last poll had LotR in the top-spot because a few Tolkien fansites urged their userbase to vote.

Ah yes, blame it on a certain group of people (which, by the way, isn't very democratic as well). I'm sure LOTR got #1 spot because a few websites brought the poll to their visitor's attention. Believe it or not, but not all Tolkien fans are nuts about PJ's films. Being a Tolkien afficiando doesn't automatically mean worshipping PJ and his team.

[Bowie 45]

Peter Jackson's movie didn't 'make' the score, as you suggest. Howard Shore's work is a massive sweeping palette of music which not only complimented the film/s, but also found an audience on headphones and hi-fi's, regardless of the movies.

A film score "made" by the film, by definition, is complementary and popular. I likewise think Titanic, for example, had a decent score whose memorability -- and sales -- were boosted by the size and popularity of the film. Brokeback Mountain too had a decent score that complemented that particular film, and people listen to the main theme made famous by the trailer alone.

My point is, the strength and buzz of those films is what catapulted the scores into the limelight. Not the other way round. Music and themes from particular scenes became famous because of the quality or infamy of what they were scoring, and I don't feel removing or changing the music in any of them would have harmed the quality of the films.

Yes, The Lord of the Rings has some excellent themes (the Ring Theme its best and most original), with appropriate soloistic orchestrations, and a general sweeping underscore, but the best film score ever that does not make. The Phantom Menace included. It's simply not the best film score ever. Neither Shore nor Williams "failed" to compose an adequate score; but neither score deserves the crown of "best film score ever (out of 20,000 films ever made)."

Perhaps no film score is deserving of that title. But I think that Star Wars (both single film and the full trilogy) comes closest, not just because of the immense thematic repertoire and sweeping musical palette, or the fact people listen to the music nearly 30 years later, or complemented the film; but because it revolutionised film scoring, it arguably raised the overall quality of the film, and basic scenes with nothing much happening on the screen to sell it (such as in the Cantina; the binary sunset; the dune sea; let alone the main title) became forever memorable just by playing the first second or two of the music. Then there's the action music. And Leia's Theme. And if we're talking the WHOLE trilogy......... The Imperial March anyone?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

My point is, the strength and buzz of those films is what catapulted the scores into the limelight. Not the other way round. Music and themes from particular scenes became famous because of the quality or infamy of what they were scoring,

The same goes for Star Wars, Harry Potter or Jurassic Park.

[Quintus 5,399]

Believe it or not, but not all Tolkien fans are nuts about PJ's films. Being a Tolkien afficiando doesn't automatically mean worshipping PJ and his team.

Not to take sides, but the above comment is very true. NEVER (even more than the Star Wars PT) has a series of films been so at the mercy of the fans than the lotr movies. Lucas had the advantage of 'owning' a massive legion of fanboys/nuts who would kid themselves into loving his PT no matter what. I used to be one until I saw the light, or rather TPM sunk in - three years between movies is an eternity as far as hindsight is concerned.

P Jackson never had that asset. The daggers were out for him if he fucked up. End of story. Thankfully he came through in spades. Who'd have thought it.

EDIT: Bowie, I've just noticed your answering comments (you posted as I submitted my last post) and I will respond when I get the chance

[Bowie 45]

My point is, the strength and buzz of those films is what catapulted the scores into the limelight. Not the other way round. Music and themes from particular scenes became famous because of the quality or infamy of what they were scoring,

The same goes for Star Wars, Harry Potter or Jurassic Park.

Of course for Harry Potter and Jurassic Park. But not for Star Wars. You think some young clueless actor looking into the sunset past a sandy igloo would be considered quality or infamous with Williams' music? Or would just some robots walking along a desert so memorable without The Dune Sea cue? Would people have gone back to see the film hundreds of times without Williams' score? "Man that cantina scene was awesome. With the weird aliens, and that alien club music!" The Binary Sunset cue I think sold the whole film. The music tells us that this is a very important historic moment we are witnessing, and the music changes the main character on the inside and we suddenly root for him. I don't think any other scoring could have filled the gaps like Williams'. Whether or not you disagree, can you say any of this for LOTR?

[Ollie 1,059]

The LOTR scores are great and worthy of all the awards and recognition they have received.

And Howard Shore is a pretty damn good composer too.

[Quintus 5,399]

The Binary Sunset cue I think sold the whole film.

Nah, the opening crawl music sold the film. Hook, line and sinker. The audience was truly in a galaxy far far away once the LSO struck up a chord.

I find it difficult to disagree with you because I love Williams' work on Star Wars more than nearly anything. But I can't get into it right now because I've had three glasses of lovely white wine, sorry for the cop-out.

[ridan 0]

My point is, the strength and buzz of those films is what catapulted the scores into the limelight. Not the other way round. Music and themes from particular scenes became famous because of the quality or infamy of what they were scoring,

The same goes for Star Wars, Harry Potter or Jurassic Park.

Of course for Harry Potter and Jurassic Park. But not for Star Wars. You think some young clueless actor looking into the sunset past a sandy igloo would be considered quality or infamous with Williams' music? Or would just some robots walking along a desert so memorable without The Dune Sea cue? Would people have gone back to see the film hundreds of times without Williams' score? "Man that cantina scene was awesome. With the weird aliens, and that alien club music!" The Binary Sunset cue I think sold the whole film. The music tells us that this is a very important historic moment we are witnessing, and the music changes the main character on the inside and we suddenly root for him. I don't think any other scoring could have filled the gaps like Williams'. Whether or not you disagree, can you say any of this for LOTR?

An example from LOTR: the Fellowship climbing the hill after they leave Rivendell. Nothing particularly noteworthy about that scene. But the Fellowship theme makes it seem of the utmost importance.

[Quintus 5,399]

An example from LOTR: the Fellowship climbing the hill after they leave Rivendell. Nothing particularly noteworthy about that scene. But the Fellowship theme makes it seem of the utmost importance.

Exactly. It may seem simplistic, but its profoundly effective. SEE: Superman Fanfare.

[Marcus 390]

I would just like to say that "Binary Sunset" is easily one of the single most effective and beautiful moments in film music history. "LOTR" has no such moment.

"Binary Sunset" is why I became a composer.

[Quintus 5,399]

Eye/ear of the beholder etc.

The Last March Of The Ents matches what you explain in terms of audience effect.

And I LOVE Binary Sunset.

[Marcus 390]

I humbly disagree. Separated from the film, Shore's score loses most of its impact, and Williams' doesn't. The reason is as obvious as it is undemocratic: Williams is a great, classical composer, and Shore is an average film composer.

I I find this most poignantly illustrated by orchestra's reaction to these scores: I have only heard negative feedback as far as "LotR" is concerned, and only enthusiastic remarks with Williams and "Star Wars". "LotR" does not belong in the concert hall.

[Hitch 57]

CLASSIC FM AT THE MOVIES CD review on Amazon.co.uk, May 22, 2006

Reviewer: Rose Black (UK) - See all my reviews

This CD covers pretty much every famous film theme going; chances are that if you aren't a film buff then this collection will include everything you could ever want.

There are the classics like Lawrence of Arabia, Magnificent Seven, Star Wars and The Mission and the really recent like Finding Neverland.

For action lovers there is Pirates of the Caribbean (a great introduction to the Media Ventures score - try out The Rock and Crimson Tide if you like this), Gladiator and Raiders of the Lost Ark. For those who want a more contemplative experience check out Schindler's List, Shakespeare in Love (Stephen Warbeck is an underappreciated but wonderful composer) and Dances with Wolves.

This is the perfect introduction to film music, and a great way to find out which composers you like (it is especially good for comparing the styles of John Williams and Hans Zimmer, though I think that James Horner is slightly lacking on this collection). It is also a wonderful capsule collection of great film themes.

Refreshing to find another Horner depressant.

[Quintus 5,399]

ha ha, but regardless of the albums crapiness, it is a good intro for new comers.

[igor 0]

I personally feel that pretty much any score could have worked in LOTR. The film MADE the score. But you could argue that for Star Wars, the score MADE the film. Who would have continued watching if it weren't for that single spine-tingling moment early on in the piece: the binary sunset. This make my hairs raise just thinking about it.

I personally think that both music and film work together in both cases.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I would just like to say that "Binary Sunset" is easily one of the single most effective and beautiful moments in film music history. "LOTR" has no such moment.  

"Binary Sunset" is why I became a composer.

FOTR has Frodo and Sam hugging on the Anduin with the Shire Hymn, TTT has the last march of the Ents, and ROTK has "For Frodo".

The reason is as obvious as it is undemocratic: Williams is a great, classical composer, and Shore is an average film composer.

Alright, let's all share a laugh and move on.

No, seriously, if you can say that, let me tell you that Shore is the better dramatist. But what's the point in stating such laughable things? They're so radically different that comparison barely makes sense. The way I see it, Shore is as good a composer as Williams, and his scores are thoroughly enjoyable, he doesn't cover his thematic ideas up underneath a mountain of orchestral mayhem, which Williams does quite often, and which often stops me from fully enjoying some of his pieces.

[Quintus 5,399]

The way I see it, Shore is as good a composer as Williams.

Have to disagree with you there. I do believe that Shore's LOTR is a masterpiece, but its just one (or 3 depending on your angle) instance of his incredible talent - on the vast scale. He was clearly on fire when he scored those movies, but can he repeat it? Williams did repeat his grand scoring talents time and time again. Williams is just too damn prolific to be compared against the relatively new appreciation of Shore.

Not only that, but there is not a man on the planet who can write action cues as good as Williams. His complex orchestrations in these instances are always worthy of examination and the way he riddles the stuff with his themes is spellbinding.

Howard Shore has shown the odd glimpse of action cue understanding ("They have a Cave Troll" and Legolas vs Mumaki for instance), but I often find some of his action scoring rather bland. Thankfully his pulsating style suits the material very well, but it doesn't really entertain me as stand alone work.

Having said that, I do love his emotional strings stuff.

But Williams just has a back catalogue that speaks for itself. It going to take some undoing.

Regardless of all that Williams vs Shore nonsense, I still rate the LOTR scores as the greatest scores I've ever heard. They may turn out to be Shores one and only beloved, or crowning achievement, but it was a time when I believe Shore was in a league of his own.

[Bowie 45]

Perhaps the film(s) just suited Shore's capacity. If that turns out to be evident because of lacking subsequent compositional efforts, then we know for sure Williams is the better composer because of his uncanny ability to, year after year, decade after decade, give a silent film its aural personality, whatever the genre or director or quality of the film.

But as for the scores themselves, I admit there is no comparison as gkgyver said. They are too different. Most professionals would agree that Star Wars wins because of other factors contributing to its success (not the least of which is its generally greater complexity), but these don't make it the better score. It's a personal opinion. However, the poll is probably right in that, because of the 30-year gap since Star Wars, its popularity will have inevitably faded, and people take the iconic music for granted now. People forget that it's a movie score these days, not a historic American icon.

[Marcus 390]

Gkgyver, I completely respect that you like Shore as much as you do. But Williams is in an entirely different category, speaking now as a professional looking at both men's talent, technique and achievements. Shore simply doesn't possess the skill or refinement or knowledge that is Williams'.

John Williams easily ranks with Prokofiev.

Shore with James Newton Howard. Which isn't bad at all for what it is, but it's a very different league.

[scissorhands 16]

Wow, I totally agree with Marcus.

Very few composers in the world can equal John Williams' knowledge... and trust me they don't (usually) work for film industry.

[Bowie 45]

Very few composers in the world can equal John Williams' knowledge... and trust me they don't (usually) work for film industry.

I guess that's what you'd call leverage.

[Hitch 57]

But will Howard Shore remain the only composer ever to win 2 Best Original Score Oscars for a movie trilogy?

[Bowie 45]

Well LOTR is an anomaly: it's the first trilogy with two films nominated for Best Picture (Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark and Jaws only had the first film nominated). And a Best Picture nomination significantly increases the chances of a Best Score win from that film.

Not that winning an Academy Award says anything of the quality of the composer's work. Voters would have likely not known that a) the same composer scores the third LOTR; and B) he won two years prior.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy had three nominations for Best Picture of the Year (but only two for Best Original Score).

As for Williams' skill vs. Shore's, I don't think that's really what you should be looking at when judging individual scores. It seems like you're saying "whatever Williams writes has to be better by definition, because he's such a skilled composer." Seems bent reasoning to me. It somewhat reeks of fanboy adoration too.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

First of all, my apologies Gkgyver. When i wrote your name, i thought it was too long and i didnt knew why, my bad for not checking. I also thought your name came from Mcgyver and Gk was a shortening of geek.

Anyway, dont quote Williams using Leia's theme in Ben's death, when the very Shore used a majestic full blown statement of the FELLOWSHIP theme, when it has been disolved and only three remain together, without the RING and in a haste and desperate situation. (not to use a majectic rendition, a tense one maybe...) And it is not the last time that theme is used, isnt it? Never for Frodo though.

What I think that is fanboy adoration is calling a one hit composer (lets face it, he was seldom known prior to LOTR, and then he got sacked from King kong) to be in the same leage as John Williams (and therefore Goldsmith and other great composer).

[Bowie 45]

It seems like you're saying "whatever Williams writes has to be better by definition, because he's such a skilled composer."

I never said whatever Williams writes is better by definition -- I simply laid out reasons why ONE of his scores (if one has to compare scores, as Classic FM obviously felt) is, in my opinion, greater than LOTR music, in the true sense of the word. I even admitted The Phantom Menace etc to be a less-than-great score.

My reasoning was to do with the impact the Star Wars score had on the both the quality of this unknown cartoonish space-adventure film and general American culture, independent of the film. Contrawise, I consider Shore's scores to have depended on the film. A score can become a popular, moving and heart-wrenching composition if embedded in a high-quality film with pre-existing world-wide fanbases and/or hype (LOTR, Titanic, BBM for example), but never have done so in a poor-quality unknown film, unable to lift the film to superstar status.

That's one difference I find between SW and LOTR. Another is that it seems almost everything Shore scored was ALREADY present on screen in some way. As Scorsese says (and I agree), a film score should add something to the film that is not already there, finding emotions that couldn't have been represented (well) by actors or cinematographers alone. I think the Ring theme is the one theme which found an appropriate voice for the orchestra: a lugubrious, luring string melody.

Not only did Williams revitalise film scoring with the Wagnerian leitmotif technique (which Shore imitates also), he crafted themes that helped tie the movie together and tell the story that the movie is struggling to tell. Try watching it without score. The pacing seems totally lost.

But with LOTR, I felt the score was unable to piece together the story sufficiently to improve the pacing. The lack of thematic variations within each film, and from film-to-film, I believe certainly "complemented" the film's monochromatic lengthiness.

A fanboy response would be "Williams kicks Shore in the nuts--squeef@rt!!!" I think this "results" deserves some questioning (especially if AFI and many other groups rightfully place SW first), and I have tried to raise some questions and issues that may or may not lead to some answers. I don't think my reasoning is bent at all.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I was referring to Marcus' comments.

[Bowie 45]

LOL. My fingers are sore from typing.

[Trent B 337]

Personally for me there's no contest. Williams is 1,000x's better than Shore. I really am not into the LOTR music personally I think it's over-hyped, even the movies themselves.

Williams' Star Wars should be number one on the list. Also Superman should be in the top 10 not number friggin' 50. E.T. should also be in the top 10 as well.

As well with Goldsmiths' Star Trek The Motion Picture that should be in the top 20 not number 99! That's pratically an insult to us Goldsmith fans.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

It is an insult to any score fan.

[Trent B 337]

It is an insult to any score fan.

True enough.

[Sandor 797]

Clearly, the list over at Classic FM is for the general, non-film music experts crowd. That makes it an insult to us though.

BUT W (Why) TF is The Last Samurai on the list TWICE!? That has been pointed out in this thread before, but it just proves how utterly INSANE and crappy this whole list really is.

[futuremartymcfly 0]

the question is not why, but how did the people who tallied the results make such an error, I wonder if Zimmer's score would have been higher if it was listed only once.

[Sandor 797]

They just put that list down from the "top of their heads". It happens A LOT with these things.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's how I vote during our political elections.

Just press the first name I reconize.

[futuremartymcfly 0]

They just put that list down from the "top of their heads". It happens A LOT with these things.

no, I meant the people who work for the radio station that counted up the votes, how did they accidentally let Last Samurai have two places, its pretty clear the people voting were doing so off the top of their heads