pi 0 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 What the hell is going on in this track? I mean it is just so full of stuff, so cluttered. How many trombone passes did they do? Any interviews talk about creating this? It is marvelous snyth programming though.Piwho feels as if he once knew more about this cue and has since forgotten, but would like to know once again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I'm probably gonna be destroyed for this, but that particular suite of music in one of my all time fave action cues.I like the fact that its so "cluttered", but I'd rather use the term "busy". Its a powerful and pumping piece of brass and percussion. The heroic theme that plays as Maximus leads the cavalry flank is one of the best powerhouse themes of recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 The sound recording is a travesty though.It seems an actual orchestra was used for this.Can't hear any evidence of that though. (thouse dubbed over horns are a pain.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I like this cue, though it sounds a bit metallic.Burga - who thinks Gladiator is to Zimmer what The Patriot is to Williams, a thoroughly enjoyable ride if not very original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Except the Gladiator score is far superior to The Patriot, as a stand alone listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Yes, Zimmer's Galdiator is a better score then Williams' The Patriot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I'd venture to say that it is even much better than The Patriot. Morlock- who thinks The Patriot was a breaking point for Williams, after which he had a remarkable renaissance in his career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi 0 Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 No doubt, this is one of my most favorite cues. I am trying to understand it in a positive way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I'd venture to say that it is even much better than The Patriot.Agreed. Though I largely disagree with your latter comments. Blame the movies, not the scores. Truely great scores serve truly great films and visa versa. Indy IV will hopefully see Williams return to what he's best at. Perhaps it will be his swan song, unwittingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmanand 0 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 The Battle is thoroughly enjoyable, if musically a bit of a mess. Works terrifically in the film, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Truely great scores serve truly great films and visa versa. Utter nonsense!Sheer ridiculous utter nonsense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Except the Gladiator score is far superior to The Patriot, as a stand alone listen.That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read on this message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Truely great scores serve truly great films and visa versa. Utter nonsense!Sheer ridiculous utter nonsense!I could argue my point, but I've had a drink and I just can't be arsed. I can see how you may have taken my remark, but I think you may have gotten the wrong end of the stick. I know exactly where you are coming from and I utterly agree.Long story short:I was referring to the fact that Williams hasn't had a truly great movie to get his musical teeth into since perhaps Jurassic Park, when it comes to all-out full orchestral sweep.Sure, he's scored some superb movies since then, but none of these have required Williams to display his fully uncloaked orchestral might. Schindlers List, AI, Memoirs of Geisha etc may be worthy films in the eyes of many, but they didn't require the famed orchestration and thematics of something like SW:ESB and, as my example suggests, Jurassic Park.Forgive me if I make no sense - like I said, I've had a drink. But I know what I'm trying to say Except the Gladiator score is far superior to The Patriot, as a stand alone listen.That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read on this message board.Ditto.As a response to a post which clearly over exaggerates the truth of the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I think you need to go back and have another drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Long story short:I was referring to the fact that Williams hasn't had a truly great movie to get his musical teeth into since perhaps Jurassic Park, when it comes to all-out full orchestral sweep.3 Harry Potters!Sure, he's scored some superb movies since then, but none of these have required Williams to display his fully uncloaked orchestral might. Schindlers List, AI, Memoirs of Geisha etc may be worthy films in the eyes of many, but they didn't require the famed orchestration and thematics of something like SW:ESB and, as my example suggests, Jurassic Park.3 Harry Potters!Forgive me if I make no sense - like I said, I've had a drink. But I know what I'm trying to say Drunk, on a saturday night?I blame your parents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I'd venture to say that it is even much better than The Patriot. Morlock- who thinks The Patriot was a breaking point for Williams, after which he had a remarkable renaissance in his careerArgh shit. I've just realised in my stupid merry stupor that I read the latter part of the above comments totally wrong. Or rather I didn't read the "remarkable renaissance" part at all. :? After reading it properly, I couldn't agree more.My apologies. Skipping over posts is NEVER a good idea when you have been on wine since lunch. Boy do I feel dumb. Actually, I don't, I feel great! But please disregard my remarkably silly comments above.The downside is I've just wasted 10mins typing up another drunken response to an argument with by myself!What the hell, I'll post it anyway, please don't laugh Actually, I hope you do. "The Phantom Menace, Attack Of The Clones and Revenge Of The Sith may be movies which allow Williams to do what he does best, but the movies are hardly classics. Hence the reason why Williams isn't making the impact he once did, especially on the new ear.Thats what I'm talking about here. A film which inspires a newcomer to Williams is a great film indeed. And a great score with it.Williams hasn't scored a massively influential film since Jurassic Park." beerchug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Jurassic Park was mainly influential because it firmly established the CGI era of film making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,691 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 For me, The Patriot has a number of standout cues, but Gladiator gives me a far more satisfying overall listening experience, especially when combined wth the More Music From... album.The Battle is also one of the first tracks I ever downloaded, back when I was a total newbie. In fact it was on a mix CD I made and played in the car, and my mum recognized it as something from Gladiator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Jurassic Park was mainly influential because it firmly established the CGI era of film making.And also because it was and remains a text book example of blockbuster film making craft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robthehand 3 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 What's that supposed to mean? :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,691 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I'm not sure if that's meant to be good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Bah , what a jip. I'm going to bed :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRuleOfThirds 0 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I just watch M:I 2 and I noticed that the movie closed out with "L'Opera Sauvage" by Vangelis, but was he credited anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Except the Gladiator score is far superior to The Patriot, as a stand alone listen.I dunno. I kinda like them equally, though after testing out a CDR of the Da Vinci Code I made from mp3s (which i tossed out of my window halfway through in disgust), I felt like breaking every Zimmer CDR (yes I have yet to buy one of this man's scores) I had, except for the Lion King expanded bootleg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzOutcast 122 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 The Battle is thoroughly enjoyable, if musically a bit of a mess. Works terrifically in the film, though.I couldn't disagree more. As much as I love the score for Gladiator, I think the main reason it lost the oscar to Crouching Tiger is how it worked in the film. The CD is a great listen from beginning to end. But when you connect the music to what's going on on-screen, it feels like Zimmer was ignoring movie and just writing what sounded good on its own. For me, that's where I differentiate Williams and Zimmer. Williams writes music that sounds great on its own and works well within the film, where as Zimmer doesn't (well that and that every other one of his scores sounds the same . . . and I'm not even knocking him for his synth stuff). As for Gladiator, I think Barbarian Horde is a prime example of what works well on its own but when I sit down to watch the movie, the music seems to go off on its own and not assist as well as it should.All that aside, Gladiator is my favorite Zimmer score. Its thrilling and emotionally and gives me pretty much everything I look for in a score. As for comparing it to Patriot . . . well, that's a tough one. The Patriot seems to get knocked all the time here though, like it's Williams' worst score when IMO it's far from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I don't like The Battle and Barbarian Horde on CD either. I usually skip those tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 To suggest that anything Zimmer ever writes can hope to be on the same level as Williams, even on Williams' most uninspired Tuesday, is to misunderstand talent, craft and expertise...Now, you may still like Zimmer, and even prefer him to better composers, and that is O.K. But "The Patriot" is -and I am stating this matter-of-factly- a superior score, not just to "Gladiator", but to most scores of the last 10 years not penned by Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 To suggest that anything Zimmer ever writes can hope to be on the same level as Williams, even on Williams' most uninspired Tuesday, is to misunderstand talent, craft and expertise...Now, you may still like Zimmer, and even prefer him to better composers, and that is O.K. But "The Patriot" is -and I am stating this matter-of-factly- a superior score, not just to "Gladiator", but to most scores of the last 10 years not penned by Williams.Says you, a patriot to The Patriot score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 ...A patriot to good music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 The Patriot is lazy music.How can I like a score if the composer seemed to have put no effort in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondo 33 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 To suggest that anything Zimmer ever writes can hope to be on the same level as Williams, even on Williams' most uninspired Tuesday, is to misunderstand talent, craft and expertise...Now, you may still like Zimmer, and even prefer him to better composers, and that is O.K. But "The Patriot" is -and I am stating this matter-of-factly- a superior score, not just to "Gladiator", but to most scores of the last 10 years not penned by Williams.That's how arguments get started, and this is why Zimmer fans get pissed off - you are claiming that those who think Zimmer is a better composer than Williams is idiocy. Whether you're right or wrong is irrelevant. Let people have their opinions without calling them uninformed. "The Patriot" is not superior to anything, nor is it the worst score ever written."Talent, craft, and expertise" are such subjective and abstract concepts that they can't simply be rated on a 1-10 scale. Film music is a not a competition, it's an exercise in exploring the art of music. To some, "The Battle" may sound like noise in parts. To my ears, "War of the Worlds" (for example) is unbearable orchestral noise in parts. But guess what? I think they both work in context. Don't get me wrong, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I can understand why many fans prefer Williams over Zimmer. But stating matter-of-factly that one is superior to the other is simply absurd.My 2 cents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I certainly didn't- or didn't intend to- state that anything is "idiocy", as far as our opinions on film scores and their composers, and I'm sorry to have caused you to think this. But I don't think craft and expertise (I'll leave talent out for now) are subjective and abstract concepts, not from a professional artistic point of view.And I didn't mean to call anybody uninformed. I simply meant to say that if we insist on comparing Zimmer to Williams, it is perfectly obvious they are in different categories, different leagues, technically and aesthetically.That some may prefer one or the other shouldn't be a problem for anyone (obviously). But there is such a thing as quality of writing, such a thing as craftsmanship...Oh, and Steef: Enjoy good music. Pure and simple. Don't worry about how much effort it cost the composer, it is really not for an audience to judge anyway. Hey, we still like Mozart, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondo 33 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Fair enough beerchug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The Patriot is lazy music.How can I like a score if the composer seemed to have put no effort in it?Isnt Gladiator a bit lazy too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Calling it lazy is being kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 As lazy as Gladiator might be, The Patriot is one of the laziest scores I've ever heard. It's the most mundane score I've ever heard from JW, totally by the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Well firstly it was a replacement score. But I still find it a very fine and enjoyable listen. There are worse JW scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Oh, and Steef: Enjoy good music. I do that's why is impossible for me to like The Patriot.Don't worry about how much effort it cost the composer, it is really not for an audience to judge anyway. How can I enjoy something I have absolutely no respect for?Hey, we still like Mozart, right?Fuck Wolfgang, the most overrated composer of all times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I remember hearing the demo for this track (or was it another action cue from the movie?), I mean it was a temp track made with synths that was almost the end result. It was a nice way to understand how Hans and the Media Ventures create their soundtrack.Was it from "More music from Gladiator" ? Or a bootleg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 It's from More Music From Glad I Ate Her, and is indeed almost indentical to the actual piece.You wonder why they bothered with a real orchestra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The first one. I for one found this track fascinating. Its interesting to see how certain composers sculpt their work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The first 2/3 minutes, specially when the horse with the dead messenger arrives, works quite nice. The rest of the track could've been from almost any movie MV has scored.The full score does have some great moments, like Patricide and Strength and Honor or Am I Not Merciful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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