Whats up with the ESB 2Disc Release?

[GoodMusician 56]

So, I've been watching the films lately...did a star wars marathon...watched the saga...and Empire Strikes Back stuck out in my head...The openning really hit me.

I asked myself:

"Why doesn't the transition between 'Main Title' and 'Ice Planet Hoth' work right?"

"Why don't they use the cue as written for the scene?"

"Why do they track music for the opening and ending of the scene?"

And a million other little things...

I then thought I'd make a comparison to the music as it had been written...

Well, instead, I end up finding out how vastly wrong the SE release of the soundtrack is... not only are the horn channels switched, but the mix is all wrong.

Then comparing it to the film, and bringing in the second cue correctly, you find that it still doesn't line up quite right.

Then if you notice, the tracks on the SE are shorter than on the Antholoy. My understanding was that they'd been incorretly transfered on the antholgoy...

Well, comparing the correctly channeled mix of the anthology against the film... I find it fits PERFECTLY!

hmmm...

So I'm a little annoyed at ESB already lol...

I guess my question is, where is the truth in all this...and who the f* mixed the SE release because it's soooo wrong...THe harp...sounds like it's comming from the center channel... no no no

The horn channels are SWITCHED... compare them!

Not to mention they're transfered at an incorrect speed...

So...whats up with that?

[robthehand 3]

"Why doesn't the transition between 'Main Title' and 'Ice Planet Hoth' work right?"

Not sure what you mean, I never noticed.

"Why don't they use the cue as written for the scene?"

Williams wrote two cues for that scene, they used the revised one. The revised cue appears (out of place) at the start of track 4 on the 2-disc set.

"Why do they track music for the opening and ending of the scene?"

Because they obviously felt it worked better.

Well, instead, I end up finding out how vastly wrong the SE release of the soundtrack is... not only are the horn channels switched, but the mix is all wrong.

The mix is terrible. The Anthology has a much better mix - but for some reason two or three cues have the stereo channels reversed.

Check this file - where it says "SE Mix", if it says "Tomlinson" it's the correct film mix, where it says "Risner" it's the horrible SE mix. That file also notes which tracks have the stereo channels reversed on the anthology.

Then comparing it to the film, and bringing in the second cue correctly, you find that it still doesn't line up quite right.

It's no secret that Empire was heavily re-edited late in production, and Williams' music had to be (obviously) also re-edited to fit the scenes. I think that's what you're saying...

Then if you notice, the tracks on the SE are shorter than on the Antholoy. My understanding was that they'd been incorretly transfered on the antholgoy...

I haven't heard that.

Well, comparing the correctly channeled mix of the anthology against the film... I find it fits PERFECTLY!

Or that.

So I'm a little annoyed at ESB already lol...

I guess my question is, where is the truth in all this...and who the f* mixed the SE release because it's soooo wrong...THe harp...sounds like it's comming from the center channel... no no no

The horn channels are SWITCHED... compare them!

Not to mention they're transfered at an incorrect speed...

So...whats up with that?

Brian Risner is responsible for the crappy mix, I believe.

[Trent B 337]

I think it's no secret that ESB has a horrible mix for the Special Edition 2-CD sets and I believe pratically everyone here has known about it for quite a while... not to be a wise ass or anything just am saying.

I know some of you will say that Star Wars sounds fine.. ya well even then sometimes the Anthology material sounds better than the Special Edition material. We all know that Return Of The Jedi is the worst of all three scores when it comes to the mixes and sound quality.

It's too bad we couldn't get proper mixes and best sound for all 3 OT scores for this year's 30th Anniversary.

Edit: Also it's proven that they can remix the music better. If you have the actual CD of the Revenge Of The Sith soundtrack, pop it in the DVD that came with the CD and watch and listen to the cue for The Asteroid Field and you will hear that it has been mixed properly and even has better sound than anything on the Anthology and Special Edition sets. Hell even listen to the music from Return Of The Jedi from that DVD it too has better sound than the Anthology and Special Edition sets combined.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

It's too bad we couldn't get proper mixes and best sound for all 3 OT scores for this year's 30th Anniversary.

So...it has been said officialy that it wont be released?

BTW We are still 3 months till the SW 30th annyversary...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Have they even announced yet what they will and will not do for the 30th Anniversary?

- Marc, nevertheless not counting on a clean-up for these scores.

[Trent B 337]

So...it has been said officialy that it wont be released?

I never said that. I should have stated it's too bad we haven't gotten a release of the OT scores with proper mixes and good sound. I am with Marc on this that I'm not counting down the days until they release such a thing if they ever do. Chances are they probably never will.

[Lurker 5]

I think it's no secret that ESB has a horrible mix for the Special Edition 2-CD sets and I believe pratically everyone here has known about it for quite a while... not to be a wise ass or anything just am saying.

I know some of you will say that Star Wars sounds fine.. ya well even then sometimes the Anthology material sounds better than the Special Edition material. We all know that Return Of The Jedi is the worst of all three scores when it comes to the mixes and sound quality.

It's too bad we couldn't get proper mixes and best sound for all 3 OT scores for this year's 30th Anniversary.

Edit: Also it's proven that they can remix the music better. If you have the actual CD of the Revenge Of The Sith soundtrack, pop it in the DVD that came with the CD and watch and listen to the cue for The Asteroid Field and you will hear that it has been mixed properly and even has better sound than anything on the Anthology and Special Edition sets. Hell even listen to the music from Return Of The Jedi from that DVD it too has better sound than the Anthology and Special Edition sets combined.

Some quick clarification is needed. Not every cue is effected by the re-mix in Empire, only material that was on the 24-track tape, which is was just the original album material. Everything else should be from the same source as the Anthology. And the Anthology is far from perfect either. It has it's share of bad edits and reversed stereo tracks.

Also, the bonus DVD shows what happens when you take a stereo source, add reverb and then EQ the hell out of it. That's about all that was done to the music. No new source material was found. A Target bonus CD was released with extra cues when ROTS came to DVD and the Star Wars tracks sound like they were recorded underwater compared to the sharper and clearer SE album.

As for the SE album timings not matching up, I'm at a loss. I've never had that complaint and there doesn't seem to be a pitch problem.

Neil

[Red 75]

When in doubt, blame Lucas.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lacas had nothing to do with this.

Redman and Matesinno did.

[robthehand 3]

Lacas had nothing to do with this.

Redman and Matesinno did.

Not sure about Redman, but IIRC the problems in the mix occured before the stage Matessino was involved in. Matessino did the "album assembly" - wouldn't he have done that after the initial multi-track transfer?

This is all gobbledegook to me, but that bit seems to make sense.

[GoodMusician 56]

The transition between "Main Title" and the next cue... "Ice Planet Hoth" I believ ethe name is, in the film, is belated. THis ofsets the rest of the cue.

I took the SE track (track 2) and re-edited it to come in correctly... it didn't always fit right... certain mments would be belayed... like the fanfare that plays when Hoth is seen... among other little things...

Then I took the antology, did the same edit, compared it to the film, and it fit perfectly.

We all know that the two have varying track lengths. Comparing "Imperial March," you find that the SE is a lot shorted becuase it was slightly sped up.

I was wondering why that is since from what I can see, the Anthology had the correct speed...

[Lurker 5]

Are you watching the original version or the SE?

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Good point. Didn't the SE's have microscopic edits at several points, or was that only Star wars SE?

[Lurker 5]

The opening of the Empire SE (film) has the music start late, on the shot of Luke on the tauntaun.

Neil

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I did not know that.

Most be because I haven't see that version in years.

Trust Neil to dish up that sort of info.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Hell even listen to the music from Return Of The Jedi from that DVD it too has better sound than the Anthology and Special Edition sets combined.

erm, wouldnt 'crap' + 'crappier' = 'very crappy'? of course it has to sound better!

[Trumpeteer 302]

So I'm a little annoyed at ESB already lol...

If there are problems with the CD, I could care less. As long as I can hear the music without having to turn up the stereo too far past the normal setting, then it's fine with me.

As far as the movie edits go, the only one I have issue with is in the cave on Dagobah.

Don't watch the SE. You'll drive yourself crazy.

[robthehand 3]

If there are problems with the CD, I could care less.

So could I, they really do bother me.

[Guest macrea]

As far as the movie edits go, the only one I have issue with is in the cave on Dagobah.

What's up with the Dagobah cave? There is a reel change in the middle of the cue, I think, but if you're referring to the change at the end, the S/E put back the Vader theme statement that Williams originally wrote. The 1980 version tracked in bits from "The Imperial March." Is that what you mean? Which is the one you don't like?

[Ollie 1,069]

If there are problems with the CD, I could care less. As long as I can hear the music without having to turn up the stereo too far past the normal setting, then it's fine with me.

The only problem I really have is the sound quality of the score.

[robthehand 3]

I also don't like the placement of the alternate cues, but that's just nit-picking. The only major flaw is the sound quality, IMO.

[A24 4,368]

I agree with everyone who claims that TESB SE sounds downright terrible. OTOH, I've heard the vinyl version of TESB sounds fabulous. I truly regret that I didn't buy it at the time. I still don't have it. It's not easy to get.

Alex

[Ollie 1,069]

I've got the LP somewhere. I still want to do a transfer of it.

[Trumpeteer 302]

As far as the movie edits go, the only one I have issue with is in the cave on Dagobah.

What's up with the Dagobah cave? There is a reel change in the middle of the cue, I think, but if you're referring to the change at the end, the S/E put back the Vader theme statement that Williams originally wrote. The 1980 version tracked in bits from "The Imperial March." Is that what you mean? Which is the one you don't like?

When "Vader" appears and he and Luke raises their lightsabers, they cut out part of the brass. Very minor, but it irks me every time.

And the only thing I like about the SE movies is the replacement of the music at the end of the cave scene and when Slave I takes off.

[GoodMusician 56]

No no no no no...

The music as heard in the FILM (both SE AND original) is like this... The Main Title Plays...and where "Probe Droid" should start, it doesn't... it starts late.

They use the alternate I realze, but it's still not lined up right.

I'msorry, but I am going to complain abuot the SE releases. As both a fan of JW's, a composer, and in trying to be someone who truly respects music, audio, and the time people put into this stuff, I find it an insane sacrildge that someone could degrade someones work by not giving it the respect it deserves.

I don't mind about the film being a few moments off... directors make decsions like that all the time... it bugs me a bit, but whatever.

What bugs me is that the releases of the OT are soo... horrible... none of them are that geat. I'm just... I find it disrespectful to take something that someone spent so much time and effort on...thousands of dollars go into (mutiple times) and then make it to so... disgustingly below par... *I* can do a better job than that...and I don't get paid and I'm onyl 20 years old working with equipment I bought on sale at Best Buy...

Its just very bothersome...and irreverent.

I was wondering, is ESB missing anything like the other ones are?

[King Mark 3,631]

There's tons of releases i have more problems with than the Star Wars SE's.ESB sounds fine to me as it is.I only want better sound on RotJ.

[GoodMusician 56]

I just want a release...that is truthfull to the source...

ANH I can live with...I already have the alternate end credits ...

ESB...I'm upset with...how can you flip some channels and not others...and WHY... and why would you even narrow it...and change the transfer rate incorrectly?

And Don't even get me started with ROTJ...

Just something that is truthfull to the damn scores as they were recorded..

BTW: If you want to see what I mean about the music comming in late, compare the film version to what you hear in my recent video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CCbPBX3Q5w

[Lurker 5]

GM, your posts have me and several others completely befuddled. Alternate end titles to Star Wars? There's the "Anthology", with its alternate take of "The Throne Room" and bad edit into the end titles...is that what you are talking about? Is that something really worth having? The way you speak so reverentially about Williams and his craft I would say, "no".

And again, I don't understand what you are saying about Empire Strikes Back (YouTube is currently down). I understand the complaints about the mix (again, it's not everything, just those cues that were on the original double album) but beyond that there's nothing wrong with it.

Neil

[GoodMusician 56]

ok... I have an alternate version of the End Titles (which by the way is not the same thing as the throne room cue) to A New Hope...

When it gets to Leia's theme, the flutes play a slightly different part... and a few moments latter too. The whole cue is faster too... and has some of the extensions never really used in the actual end credits. It's not from any of the releases...Now that I think about it, I don't know where it came from... but it's definately the LSO and definately under the baton of John Williams... I think that Lord Skylark sent it to me if I remmeber right...

EDIT: Yes, Lord Skylark sentit to me. It's a rip of the end Credits to one of the video games...

Double EDIT: But It appears I was mis-informed. It is not in the same key as the "End Credits Intro" from Episode IV. I don't know what it was for... It sounds too clean to be from the other originals. So it could be from the prequels... But the only one that uses Leia's theme is Episode III, and this is NOTHING like that version.

It is almost exactly like Epiosde IV's but in a the openning is in a different key (but once it gets to Leia's theme it's in the right key) and the whole thing is faster... It consists only of "End Credits Intro" in the other key, "Leia's Theme" which has a different flute line... and then goes straight into the end final end credits part...

As far as ESB, They use the Main Titles Like they did in the Prequels. Well, JW wrote for "Imperial Probe Droids" to come in next... but the thing is, like in the prequels, it's suppose to come it at a certain point. I always felt that where it came in was too jarring...

If you watch the video when you can, you'll see I had to move the cue in a few seconds in order for it to sync up with everything else... this shows that the alternate (not used in the film) is meant to have come in earlier than what we hear in the film.

In comparing the alternate, it becomes obvious to me that they also miscued it as well. Strangely enough though, the music you'd expect to hear from the helicoptor shot of Luke on the Taun Taun, plays early... which makes me wonder if this cue is from an earler edit of the opening sequence... It's that little fanfare at the end that seems misplaced. Even if you try to cue that up correctly, it means making the cue come in latter than it is in the film...so something is going on.

Do you kind of understand me now?

My only other complaint about it ESB is that they mis-transfered the tracks. If you compare the cues, a lot of times the SE is longer If memory serves. In comparing both the Anthology and the SE to the actual FILM, only the Anthology fits right. The SE doesn't... it doesn't hit the cues it should...which seems to me at east, mean it was transferred incorrectly.

Also, I don't know who told you that the "Throne Room" is an alternate take from the one on the Anthology, but from what I can hear, they are the same. There is an all too obvious horn flub at 1:34-35 (It Slides into Lay (Mi) Do in both.)

[Lurker 5]

Also, I don't know who told you that the "Throne Room" is an alternate take from the one on the Anthology, but from what I can hear, they are the same. There is an all too obvious horn flub at 1:34-35 (It Slides into Lay (Mi) Do in both.)

My ears told me. John Takis confirmed it. The opening is wrong (as John put it, "A triplet figure in the opening measure instead of a ... duplet, I suppose. "), there is a flub around 1:05 and the section between 1:20-1:23 is more prominent than in any other release.

Neil

[GoodMusician 56]

wow... I guess the horn player just wasn't having a good day... :-p

Then again, it's possible that in the rebuilding of the cues, they mixed the wrong take. That part is different. But the flub I pointed out sounds the same to me... so it may be that the Anthology is two takes, and the SE is just the one take.

I also edited some of my explaination in the last post to make it a little easier to understand.

[Lurker 5]

But the flub I pointed out sounds the same to me... so it may be that the Anthology is two takes, and the SE is just the one take.

It was my understanding that no editing of selected takes was done for the "Anthology". Nick Redman explained this to me at the FSM board a few years ago. I also don't currently have access to my SE albums, but the RCA Star Wars album had a chart in the back explaining what takes were used to assemble the final cues. I'm sure someone will be able to fill us in on this though.

Neil

[Jim Ware 526]

The Throne Room on the SE uses takes 132 and 133 followed by End Title Crossover take 219 (the last piece recorded at the sessions). The crossover may cover the Throne Room / End Title transition or something else in the End Title.

[Ollie 1,069]

Uh yeah ........I would just like them to sound a little better, that's all.

[GoodMusician 56]

The Throne Room on the SE uses takes 132 and 133 followed by End Title Crossover take 219 (the last piece recorded at the sessions). The crossover may cover the Throne Room / End Title transition or something else in the End Title.

Ok, so maybe the Anthology is Take 133... and the SE is two takes, 132 and 133 as you stated... becuase that horn flub almost at the end is in both... otherwise that horn player was having a really bad day lol...

Unfortunately, by the time I started getting the SE's, I could only find ANH... the others just weren't on the shelves until the ones with the screen savers with no booklets (blah!)

[Ollie 1,069]

Star Wars was the only SE set with a listing of the session takes that were used.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

Granted, every Star Wars soundtrack release has its flaws; varying degrees of completeness and/or sound quality, yeah, one can nitpick. But try living between 1983-1993 where all we had were the LPs? Sure, the sound was better on them (provided your LPs weren't scratched - and when I was a kid, I scratched mine to hell - had to re-buy M/NM versions all over again as an adult), but RotJ was always woefully short, and I didn't even get mine until 1992. Then, in 1993, the incomplete Anthology set was heaven. Then, in 1997, the SE sets were heaven and then some. I'd take flawed expanded/complete releases over none at all. Also, nitpicking ESB seems odd because Jedi is the most disrespected of the OT scores because of the incompleteness of the OST album and the terrible (muted, muffled-highs?! Why?!) sound quality on the SE. So, for me, if we got SE versions of the prequel scores and the Indy scores, 99.999% complete other than some sound quality issues... I'd take them in a heartbeat. Give credit where it is due... I'm thankful for any expanded release! The SEs are a godsend.

[GoodMusician 56]

See... My problem is how does someone who can't tell channels are switched get on a project like that?

And how can someone cleaning them and such not notice how horribly they did so for say... ROTJ.

Yes, I'm glad I have the music... but as someone who is both a composer, film lover, instrumentalist, and completist... it seems like their lackluster attempt at a release spits in the faces of the hundreds of people who were involved, and the thousands of fans out there.... especially when they charge you what they do for them.

It's not hard to release something that is true to form. If people complain, it's ok... as long asyou tried... It sounds to me like they did these over some weekend and didn't really try.

I also didn't really make this thread to complain, I made it to see what people knew about the problems and perhaps there were problems I hadn't heard of... I'm just interested in what, exactly, whent wrong and perhaps why if people know that much.

[Demodex 557]

How the hell do you even notice that channels were switched? And why would that bother you?

I am so glad I'm not a soundtrack nerd. The SE scores are awesome when you don't give a shit about such stupid things.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If you know the standard orchestra set up, then you can definatly detect it.

Are you mad at goodmusician for noticinhg something you clearly don't have the knowledge or discriminiation to notice?

Have you actually said or done anything positive on this Forum....ever?

Be gone, cur!

[robthehand 3]

I am so glad I'm not a soundtrack nerd.

So you are here..... why? <_<

Seriously though, anyone whose heard a large amount of orchestral music would be able to identify reversed stereo channels. Definitely if you have a pair of headphones, they don't even need to be good ones.

Listen to your favourite bit of music with your headphones on the wrong way round, and you'll notice the difference.

[Ollie 1,069]

How the hell do you even notice that channels were switched? And why would that bother you?

I am so glad I'm not a soundtrack nerd. The SE scores are awesome when you don't give a shit about such stupid things.

Yeah given how you want your soundtracks to sound exactly like it is in the film it's probably best you stay out of these in depths conversations and leave them to the "nerds" who know what they are talking about.

<_<

[Trent B 337]

<_< @ Demodex.

Seriously as Rob stated anyone who's been listening to film orchestra music for a long time will know such things. I do also wonder why you're here Demodex. Do you like being a troll or something?

[Lurker 5]

It sounds to me like they did these over some weekend and didn't really try.

You'd be surprised by what can get done in a weekend.

But the SE albums were not done over a weekend.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wasn't some of the mixing on TESB done under extreme time constraints?

[GoodMusician 56]

When I first joined here... I coudn't hear if the channels were swithced. I kept that to myself, but I did take note when pople would say "look...this track's channels are switched."

The more editing I did for my complete scores, the more I began to be able to pick up on things. I purposely was meticulous with them as far as performance went because I was searching for alternate takes.

In doing so, I developed an ear to hear the switches as well. Even now, I sometimes don't notice right away (unless it's the strings as I am a string player) but I will feel...weird... I won't be able to put my finger on it... I soon realize why though...

So I can understand the sentments... but at the same time... I just feel that if you are gonna do it...do it right.

And as steef just said, wasn't there some sort of time constraint?