Why is orchestration not taught better/more ?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yeah kids these days.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Why do us old people have to be so....old fashioned? Why do we claim we are superior despite history teaching us time and time again that we're not?! WHHHHYY?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yeah we should just say the hell with and let everything go.

I'll just keep letting my kids make the same mistakes I made and not try to steer their life in a positive direction.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Yeah we should just say the hell with and let everything go.

I'll just keep letting my kids make the same mistakes I made and not try to steer their life in a positive direction.

It's a good plan.  Not my fault my kids were born stupid.  

[Ollie 1,059]

I just blame their mother.

There are certain JW peices that would work for a marching band; 1941, Midway, The Imperial March.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

We played staples like JP, Raiders, and ET in our show, but it also included a really powerful arrangement of Far and Away, which was my first exposure to the score.

Ray Barnsbury

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Far and Away

Best Williams score of the 90's....and most underrated and unheard round these parts.

[Ollie 1,059]

I enjoy listening to it. It's been awhile since I've had it in my rotation.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

The album is one of the best ones Williams has produced...

Not only does the music move and change within individual tracks, but so does the entire score from one end of the album to the other, going from Irish to Western.

[Red 75]

Underrated? Most definitely. Best of the 90's? No.

[Morlock 11]

Underrated? No. A Bit overrated, maybe. Depends which circles you're in.

It's a good score. Great, concidering the movie it is from. A bit too showy for me to listen to too often (Not that I don't love many JW showy scores, but I have a hard time connecting with showy when I know the film it was written for doesn't deserve to be shown, much less to have a score of this caliber).

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I enjoy listening to it. It's been awhile since I've had it in my rotation.

Ditto.

I should probably listen to it again, but I have a ton of other stuff to get through now.

[tuneman_21 0]

Sorry, but Total Recall is to me a PERFECT example of what I mean. It's not a hard theme, it's very basic and DEFINITELY more about the percussion and other sounds around it, than it is about the theme. I think Goldsmith style of composition is much more about beauty in its simplisty.

That isn't to say Goldsmith didn't come up with some deceptively hard themes. The "Enterprise" theme from Star Trek is a great example. It sounds easier than it is. But I don't think in the end Goldsmith was all about complexity in theme as he was in orchestration. JW is much more the thinking man's composer.

I haven't seen crap like this since day after I ate 3 Donner Kebabs with garlic sauce and sambal!

With many Goldsmith scores, or most actually the music is build using the themes as a basis, in many cases Jerry composes a few themes and motives and crafts the entire score from them.

The reason why Goldsmith doesn't sound complex to you is because he doesn't attempt to create musical chaos, like Elfman usually does with his rhytmic writings, or Williams with his action music of the last decade or so.

With Goldsmith, everything, every section of the orchestra complement each other instead of trying to make each other heard while the other sections are playing at their loudest.

Even with his most loud and dense action scores, Total Recall and First Blood: Part II, you never get the sense thast it's just 100 instuments randomly playing against each other, everyone is working together.

Jerry Goldsmith's best music is like a finely crafted Swiss Watch.

That's what I like. Say I don't know my arse from a hole in the ground, then prove my point. Way to go!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, but we arrived at different conclusions, you say Goldsmith's music is not very complex. I happen to believe it is. It far more difficult to write a wholy cohesive score then all that chaotic, rhytmically confusing and thematically vague rubbish that passes for "complexity" to the ignorant amongst us.

I'm sorry but you clearly don't know your arse from a hole in the ground!

[tuneman_21 0]

We played staples like JP, Raiders, and ET in our show, but it also included a really powerful arrangement of Far and Away, which was my first exposure to the score.

Ray Barnsbury

Very few JW things work for the marching band, although Far and Away is one that does. Back in my day - and it's sad I can say that - a rival high school did Far and Away for their half-time show one year and it worked well. There's just enough variety in it thematically and musically, that you can design drill that fits it well. Unfortunately, most of JW's music doesn't fit that too me.

Star Wars show's are a problem only because you will never make everyone happy with it. There are sooo many leitmotif's that people are familiar with that you'll always have someone saying "Why didn't you play this guy's theme or that guy's theme?" Although, I guess if the only audience you're worried about making happy is the football crowd, thats not much of a worry.

Personally, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter, Far and Away, Hook and even The Mission Theme, I have found to work well.

I would pay good money to see someone do a marching band show to an exact transcription Adventures on Earth. That show would rock!

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Now Stefan is pointing out the merits of well-structured, "classical" music... what is the world coming to?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I do not remember classical music having a lot of synthesisers in it like most of Goldsmith's big action scores do.

Nice try though.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Synthesiszers are an important factor in writing a cohesivevly structured work now?

Your comments are all good and true, they just seem to prove even more than you intend.

Legend

[tuneman_21 0]

Synthesiszers are an important factor in writing a cohesivevly structured work now?

Your comments are all good and true, they just seem to prove even more than you intend.

Legend

Yeah. It seesm to be proving who really doesn't know their musical arse from a hole in the ground

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Synthesiszers are an important factor in writing a cohesivevly structured work now?

Your comments are all good and true, they just seem to prove even more than you intend.

Legend

Yeah. It seesm to be proving who really doesn't know their musical arse from a hole in the ground

Which is why I didn't start arguing with someone who implies Jerry Goldsmith's body of work is devoid of complex themes.  

[tuneman_21 0]

Synthesiszers are an important factor in writing a cohesivevly structured work now?

Your comments are all good and true, they just seem to prove even more than you intend.

Legend

Yeah. It seesm to be proving who really doesn't know their musical arse from a hole in the ground

Which is why I didn't start arguing with someone who implies Jerry Goldsmith's body of work is devoid of complex themes.  

That's not what I said. What I said was that Jerry's primary concern was orchestration and new sounds and that complex themes and rhythms came second. YOU and others INFERED that I was ripping on his compositional style which I'M NOT! In fact, I LAUDED him for what he did - showing what a great example he was a truely great orchestrating technique - and I'm RIDICULED!! Of course, what should we expect from someone who probably thinks the 1812 Overture would sound just as grand played on a kazoo as it would played by the Chicago Symphony. I guess, as far as you people are concerned, truely informed and researched insight doesn't me squat if it doesn't agree with your opinion.

[Red 75]

What's an arse?

Rabbit--breaking the tension

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

What's an arse?

It's....you know the rear end of an organism.  

[Ollie 1,059]

I love it when newbies start slamming veteran members. Brings out some excitement to the mundane happenings here.

[John Crichton 4]

What's an arse?

Rabbit--breaking the tension

Watch some more British TV. Then you'll know the meaning of both that and what the loo is.

[Ollie 1,059]

I figured he would get it by the way it was used.

Kids these days.

[Red 75]

I'm not that stupid. But apparantly, you didn't know that.

Rabbit--also knows what loo means

[AI 0]

To an extent Stefancos is right, Goldsmiths' music is much like a Rolex. A perfect machine. But Williams action music is not chaotic, it never has been.

As far as orchestration being taught, well all composers of note have learnt it by studying the scores of others, that's how it has always been done. Bach went blind by transcribing the music of other composers, by moonlight.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think a lot of his modern action scoring is, stuff like Coruscant Chase, which has the orchestra going in 10 different directions with really ever arriving anywere.

[pi 0]

Orchestration is best learned by yourself through years of diligent study. Teachers can direct you what to study, but you must study often and an in what you are most interested and least interested. 1 or 2 classes in university will do very little beyond telling you the basics. The best method I found was grabbing scores and going to sit through orchestra rehearsals.

[tuneman_21 0]

I love it when newbies start slamming veteran members. Brings out some excitement to the mundane happenings here.

Well, after reading Stefan's other posts on this board, I realize now I shouldn't put any stock in anything he says. He's just a self-absorbed, know everything about everything, hack of all trades bully.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm not actually.

I'm a friendly soul, a bit shy and quiet.

[Lurker 5]

Well, after reading Stefan's other posts on this board, I realize now I shouldn't put any stock in anything he says. He's just a self-absorbed, know everything about everything, hack of all trades bully.

Hey, that's a half truth!

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well, I am a bit self absorbed, I guess. But if you were me, so would you be....

[Lurker 5]

Well, I am a bit self absorbed....

So is the left side of you bed, as I understand it.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hahaha....nice catch.

[Ollie 1,059]

I love it when newbies start slamming veteran members. Brings out some excitement to the mundane happenings here.

Well, after reading Stefan's other posts on this board, I realize now I shouldn't put any stock in anything he says. He's just a self-absorbed, know everything about everything, hack of all trades bully.

And that's why we all like Steef.

[Morn 8]

I don't think John Williams is the only composer who's doing fanatistic orchestration lately. What about Joe Hisashi or Marco Beltrami (listen to flight of the phoenix).

Orchestration is a very fine art. It's like the difference between being in a fast box. And a speedy comfortable sports car. Presentation. And it's really vital part of music and all the more better and interesting with unique and complex textures.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I wouldn't say that so loudly... around this place such blasphemy is like dripping blood in a river of piranahs.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Yes, but we arrived at different conclusions, you say Goldsmith's music is not very complex. I happen to believe it is. It far more difficult to write a wholy cohesive score then all that chaotic, rhytmically confusing and thematically vague rubbish that passes for "complexity" to the ignorant amongst us.

Amen to that.

[Marcus 390]

Complexity has many facets.

In terms of textural complexity, Goldsmith tended to opt for fairly simple simple, not very multi-layered textures for the last ca. 10 years of his creative life. Which makes sense, considering the usually "flat" films he scored. I think that Goldsmith´s complexity was more in terms of his analytical/intellectual approach, and his musical "reduction" of a film, and I think his brilliance in this respect remained undiminished.

Williams is a very different type of composer, though both are very much "thinking man´s" composers. Both have a cerebral and a visceral dimension to their scoring approach.

Now, there are many types of busy textures, but I would say that what separates Williams´textures from those of lesser, untrained non-classical composers, is precisely the logic of construction and execution. Williams doesn´t write chaotically or randomly layered music. In fact, some of his most cerebrally sober moments are precicely the ones that sound the most daunting and dizzying.

It is very easy to mount the types of textures found in the scores of Elfman or Beltrami and others, -from a technical point of view, you don´t need so much skill, because the mucis is still very harmonically simple, and there´s no real, structured counterpoint, only counter-texture, which is designed to create one grand, total "effect". This is a viable approach, but simply undemanding from a writing point of view.

What Williams writes, and what Goldsmith wrote, especially in the 60´s, 70´s and 80´s, is entirely different, and could not be achieved by composers without a solid technique and a thorough training.

I remain deeply unimpressed by the writing of Hollywood composers in general today, simply because they are limited, not only in terms of technical chops, but also in terms of how they "see" a film (or should I say "hear"?). Everything is flat, streamlined and impersonal, it seems, and everything sounds like it was written on a 2 octave synth, just putting down some minimal midi mock-up... And the orchestrations of such music tend to sound like midi mock-ups for orchestra.

There is no longer the connection between composer and performer.

With Goldsmith, and with Williams, there´s also a whole other dimension of musical communication because for them, the orchestra, the players, are a whole additional factor greatly enhancing the score. Think about the sense of fun, the sense of playfulness in a cue like "Indy´s First Adventure"; the fact that the music is also fun to play adds to the comedy of the scene!

Williams´canon is full of such "meta-scoring", as was the canon of Jerry Goldsmith.

This dimension seems to be wholly lost in the work of most other composers currently working in Hollywood.

But then again, perhaps it is only fitting, considering the general lowering of standards found in Hollywood films of the past years.

Oh my, how old and grumpy I´ve become...

[Ollie 1,059]

No you're just stating the obvious.

[tuneman_21 0]

The vast majority of what you just said I agree with, although I would say the one thing that resounds throughout all of Goldsmith's career is his almost minimalist approach to, well, everything. Even in his early movie scores - Patton, Papillon - there's very little music for movies that are nearly 3 hours in length. In fact, the only musical thing we hear in Papillon in the opening of the film is a snare drum hit - that's it. But, that's really all we need for that, now isn't it?

I also agree that Hollywood composers of today are lacking, and I completely blame technology. We're literally at a point where you do not have to read music, understand theory, or anything else to be able to right music. Just plug your guitar or keyboard into a computer, record it, hand it to a copyist who will write it out, then an orchestrator who will orchestrate it and and a music contractor who will get the orchestra and conductor together to do the rest. Goldsmith actually complains about that in the autobiography that his daughter is writing about him. You almost get the sense that the industry is taking a nose dive in quality terms as far as Goldsmith is concerned.

But, think about the guys that Goldsmith and Williams learned from - Rodgers, Hermann, Korngold, Castleneovo-Tedesco, et al. These guys learned from the greats of European and American art music, so Williams and Goldsmith were, what, a only a generation apart from them? The new crop of music composers are coming from the pop/rock world, and no offense to the pop/rock world, there isn't quite the same beauty and understanding as there is the art music world. Not to mention, you don't need to be a fully functional musician to make it in the pop/rock world. And now, because of technology, you don't need to be one in the film scoring world either.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The new crop of music composers are coming from the pop/rock world, and no offense to the pop/rock world, there isn't quite the same beauty and understanding as there is the art music world. Not to mention, you don't need to be a fully functional musician to make it in the pop/rock world. And now, because of technology, you don't need to be one in the film scoring world either.

True, another group is the film-score-fan-turned-film-composer.

I think John Ottman is one of those.

An almost encyclopedic knowledge of film music, which prefents him to really bring anything new, or fresh into the mix.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Funny you mention that. On a slightly related note, I find it genuinely hard to pick the right fresh piece of music when I'm doing a film myself, because I so often listen to film music. It's really rather limiting if you want to do something that requires songs, or something that's not all-out bombast (my favorite kind of film score, but hardly appropriate for anything I'd do).

[Red 75]

You're a film composer?

That's something I just could not do, because it takes a certain instilled talent.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Film composer? Heck, no! I wouldn't know how to write music. I can read notes, but that's about it.

I have directed and edited, though.

[DarthHornPlayer 0]

In some resepects its more easier to compose to film. You already have a general direction to take. Absolute music

has really no direction except whats in the composers head. Its amazing that Brahms didn't need anything to start

composing. Mahler's symphonies also take an absolute approach.

Orchestration is somewhat of an aquired taste. Schumann was considered not the best, but could anyone really say

anything bad about a Rheinish symphony compared to what is churned out today? Someone mentioned Mussorsky

and all his "troubles" still not a bad mind. I would also consider Borodin....who composed on the side. His music is

just a refined as any composer of his time. There is not a person in this room who doesn't recognize the main theme

from the dances. Someone mentioned Ravel...yes a genius, and JW though so too as much of Hook attests to.

I would mention this on a higher level. Composers who could right for solo instruments and make them sound

different. Writing for piano perhaps...and don't forget those rare perfomers, who could bring out orchestral colors

from only a piano keyboard...truly amazing!

In my opinion, a real composer only needs one course in orchestration. Much comes in trial an error. Many times

things can be copied, but the true test will always be how one uses rhythm, harmony, and melody.

LOL..Ill take Stravinksy for rhythm, Debussy in harmony and Greig in melody!

DHP

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[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I'd just take Prokofiev and Holst.

[DarthHornPlayer 0]

Holst....a one hit wonder? Perhaps, but if you go to the record store the Planets section will be bigger than

Beethoven. Im not sure how we can call a composer great based on only one work....and if we take

away Mars and Saturn then what? Perhaps you know more Holst than I...is it good?

Its also funny that Holst not only wrote one of the most popular pieces of orchestra, but also for wind band. If that

makes him great I don't know.

Prokofiev was a genius....can you imagine a piano class with He, Rachminoff and Scriabin?? WOW. You only have to

listen to the first piano concerto to know this guy was genius. Too bad he died on the same day as Stalin...nobody

knew he was dead for 3 days because the paper didn't print it......such is the life of a Russian composer huh?

DHP

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