John Williams- Best Composer for Film now?

[David Coscina 4]

Notice that I worded this as best composer for film not best film composer. The reason I phrase it this way is that, of all the current people writing for the film medium, I do believe Williams has got the strongest grasp of music composition. He might not be the best composer for underscoring film in the narrative sense of music/image cohesion but his music in of itself is pretty solid. in fact, I don't hear anyone close to being as accomplished as Williams at the art of composition [currently writing for film].

I think it boils down to the methods and technical compositional devices he uses that reveals this. Those who are musically literate on this forum know of what I speak. Having studied a few Williams conductor's score, I can tell this guy writes at another level. the orchestration alone is as dense as Strauss in places, his harmonic methods as effortless as Mahler, and his energy on par with Prokofiev's most manic symphonic moments. And I haven't even touched his jazz material (I studied jazz composition in university).

What's more impressive is the other film composers I have interviewed or spoken to all have the highest respect for Mr. Williams. Because they know he's the real thing.

Okay, that's enough of the adoration. Just wanted to share those thoughts with like-minded folks.

[Miguel Andrade 1,286]

Notice that I worded this as best composer for film not best film composer. The reason I phrase it this way is that, of all the current people writing for the film medium, I do believe Williams has got the strongest grasp of music composition. He might not be the best composer for underscoring film in the narrative sense of music/image cohesion but his music in of itself is pretty solid. in fact, I don't hear anyone close to being as accomplished as Williams at the art of composition [currently writing for film].

I think it boils down to the methods and technical compositional devices he uses that reveals this. Those who are musically literate on this forum know of what I speak. Having studied a few Williams conductor's score, I can tell this guy writes at another level. the orchestration alone is as dense as Strauss in places, his harmonic methods as effortless as Mahler, and his energy on par with Prokofiev's most manic symphonic moments. And I haven't even touched his jazz material (I studied jazz composition in university).

What's more impressive is the other film composers I have interviewed or spoken to all have the highest respect for Mr. Williams. Because they know he's the real thing.

Okay, that's enough of the adoration. Just wanted to share those thoughts with like-minded folks.

Do I even need to agree?

[Luke Skywalker 1,818]

'John Williams- Best Composer for Film now?'

One word:

Fcourse.

[Richard Penna 3,797]

:cool:

[Romão 2,277]

Duh. No one even comes close.

[AI 0]

He is the best, now.

He is not indisposabale though.

[ChuckM 1]

Best musical composer ever. Period.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Other candidates: John Corigliano, Elliot Goldenthal (student of Corigliano)

[Miguel Andrade 1,286]

Duh. No one even comes close.

No one even comes close to my heart... but there are better composers

Actually... there is one person that comes close to my heart, but I would have a better chance in a date with John Williams. :cool:

[Jeshopk 8]

I can't say I have heard other composers for film in present day who have mastered both the technical aspects as well as the emotional effects of music. Usually one is given up for the other in a composer's brain, I suppose. I've heard quite emotional music that could have been written by a hobbyist, and very technical music that has half the impact of Williams'.

[Red 75]

He's my favorite.

[Pieter Boelen 741]

As good as the music from other composers might be, I find that John Williams is simply the best. He (almost?) always manages to write music that is 100% appropriate for the scenes and films and greatly helps the film. His music works great in the films (provided it is not cut to pieces), but also on album. He manages to put in excitement, enthusiasm and emotion in his music with apparent ease. And one of the most impressive things about John Williams is that he is consistent. I have never heard anything from John Williams that is not good and he has written an incredible amount of truly excellent scores. Other composers might write the occasional excellent score, but John Williams does it virtually all the time. *Is impressed*

[indy4 155]

John Williams was THE best musical artist that ever walked this earth, he is THE best musical artist that ever walked this earth, and he will forever be THE best musical artist that ever walked this earth.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

John Williams was THE best musical artist that ever walked this earth, he is THE best musical artist that ever walked this earth, and he will forever be THE best musical artist that ever walked this earth.

That's even bolder than that last statement you made sometime ago.

[Miguel Andrade 1,286]

Williams ins't the best living composer. And surelly isn't the best ever!

He is a pretty good one, and in writting for film, he is among the very best ever.

And I feel pretty confortable saying this, as I have only some 500 CDs with his name on it...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I agree with every single word.

Now in reference to your 500-something John Williams CD's, do you own all the compilation CD's of his as well? I'm quite sure he's only composed music for around 100 films. I have most of them, except the rare and expensive ones (i.e. The Accidental Tourist, SpaceCamp, Earthquake, Dracula...)

[scissorhands 16]

Other candidates: John Corigliano, Elliot Goldenthal (student of Corigliano)

Corigliano isn't writing for film now. His 3 soundtracks are an exception in his career.

[John Crichton 4]

Yeah, he's pretty good.

[Strilo 0]

John Williams sucks. Most other composers for film now are better.

[indy4 155]

tell me that was a joke.

[ChuckM 1]

John Williams sucks. Most other composers for film now are better.

And you joined his fan board why?

[Strilo 0]

So I could post sarcastic jokes that gullible fools would take seriously...

[indy4 155]

when written rather than pronounced clearly, sarcasm can be hard to detect.

[ChuckM 1]

That's not sarcasm, IT'S BLASPHEMY!

[Romão 2,277]

He's the best film composer currently working and that is as objective as an opinion can get.

[Henry B 51]

This thread is retarded, and there's no such thing as objectivity when it comes to music.

[David Coscina 4]

I had hoped to get more of a dialogue as to why I made this assertion but it's clear that either people want to make smart ass quips rather than engage in musical ideas. Sorry for wasting your time.

And for the record, anyone who says there cannot be any objective discussion of music is obviously musically uninformed. Or perhaps uneducated. Either or in my books.

[indy4 155]

Okay, here goes:

I think the reason JW defeats all composers (in the film genre at least) is because he is the most varied. He has written scores as diverse as The Terminal, Catch Me If You Can, and as main stream as the Star Wars saga. Back in 1977, when Star Wars came out, do you think anybody would have suspected that the same man who wrote the big, bold, brass marches of Star Wars would be responsible for the delightful, spirited score of Home Alone? Now, there are certain other composers that are varied (Alan Silvestri, John Debney), but they still aren't to the extent of JW. And there scores, as FABULOUS as they are, are not up to par with good ol' Johhny.

It is clear to me that JW is the best composer in the film genre, but I guess I'm not qualified to make the statement above stating that he's the best of ALL genres. Although I strongly belive this, I haven't heard enough classical to make that sort of statement with good evidence to back it up. So I can logically say why I think he's the best film composer, and I can proudly say that I think the best overall composer, althoguh I can't argue the latter very well.

[Strilo 0]

when written rather than pronounced clearly, sarcasm can be hard to detect.

Yes but... come on. I post on a JW fan site. And I have for years, if one looks at the members info thread. And in my sig the number one score track was written by John Williams. I just think it's silly to come into a John Williams forum and ask if John Williams is the best film composer and expect actual discussion. Let me go into the Chicago Cubs forum and ask who the best baseball team is. Surely I will get an objective and interesting discussion!

[publicist 4,643]

I think the reason JW defeats all composers (in the film genre at least) is because he is the most varied.

Is that so? Well, i'm rather anxious to hear his takes on the Bourne films, 'Crash' or 'Black Hawk Dawn'.

Thus, he is, at best, the epitome of the ideal composer of the archetypical films soundtrack-geeks like best (fantasy/epic with heavy orchestral backing, maybe an Award-winning drama for the elevation of the own hobby, seldom things which really move too far away from the well-worn formulas). Apart form that, Williams is at his age (understandably) neither able nor willing to dabble in postmodern musical language as represented by the most popular 'modern' musicians (say experimental Thomas Newman, Remote Control, Powell and whatnot).

[Jeshopk 8]

I think the reason JW defeats all composers (in the film genre at least) is because he is the most varied.

Is that so? Well, i'm rather anxious to hear his takes on the Bourne films, 'Crash' or 'Black Hawk Dawn'.

Thus, he is, at best, the epitome of the ideal composer of the archetypical films soundtrack-geeks like best (fantasy/epic with heavy orchestral backing, maybe an Award-winning drama for the elevation of the own hobby, seldom things which really move too far away from the well-worn formulas). Apart form that, Williams is at his age (understandably) neither able nor willing to dabble in postmodern musical language as represented by the most popular 'modern' musicians (say experimental Thomas Newman, Remote Control, Powell and whatnot).

If you don't think he's been dabbling in more post modern sounds lately you're not listening to very much of his latest work!

[publicist 4,643]

If you don't think he's been dabbling in more post modern sounds lately you're not listening to very much of his latest work!

Dear God, is that really so hard to grasp? Williams isn't fit to write 'American Beauty' or 'Black Hawk Dawn' - at least not in the way they were succesfully scored. And now don't you come me with 'War of the Worlds' and stuff like that. That's still orchestral music very much rooted in Strawinsky.

I just wanted to stress the fact that todays' cinema, whatever you think of it, and Williams' sensibilities are not in exact synch, although there are exceptions, of course. No wonder, in an industry built on exploiting short-living trends.

That is no good/bad thing, Goldsmith, in his lifetime, also was deemed old-fashioned by Jerry Bruckheimer, of all people. Make of that what you want.

[Miguel Andrade 1,286]

Now in reference to your 500-something John Williams CD's, do you own all the compilation CD's of his as well? I'm quite sure he's only composed music for around 100 films. I have most of them, except the rare and expensive ones (i.e. The Accidental Tourist, SpaceCamp, Earthquake, Dracula...)

I collect it all: Concert works, works as performer/conductor/arranger, compilations, cover recordings...There's much more to Williams than just film scores.

This thread is retarded, and there's no such thing as objectivity when it comes to music.

I beg to disagree.

And for the record, anyone who says there cannot be any objective discussion of music is obviously musically uninformed. Or perhaps uneducated. Either or in my books.

My feelings exactly.

I think the reason JW defeats all composers (in the film genre at least) is because he is the most varied. He has written scores as diverse as The Terminal, Catch Me If You Can, and as main stream as the Star Wars saga. Back in 1977, when Star Wars came out, do you think anybody would have suspected that the same man who wrote the big, bold, brass marches of Star Wars would be responsible for the delightful, spirited score of Home Alone?

Anybody who had listened to his pre-Star Wars scores would have seen those later scores coming.

I think the reason JW defeats all composers (in the film genre at least) is because he is the most varied.

Is that so? Well, i'm rather anxious to hear his takes on the Bourne films, 'Crash' or 'Black Hawk Dawn'.Thus, he is, at best, the epitome of the ideal composer of the archetypical films soundtrack-geeks like best (fantasy/epic with heavy orchestral backing, maybe an Award-winning drama for the elevation of the own hobby, seldom things which really move too far away from the well-worn formulas). Apart form that, Williams is at his age (understandably) neither able nor willing to dabble in postmodern musical language as represented by the most popular 'modern' musicians (say experimental Thomas Newman, Remote Control, Powell and whatnot).

He's music is rooted on another idiom, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't fit those films as well. And Williams has been quiet experimental early on.I still believe that he is better than his younger colleagues, simply because he understand and writes on musical terms, not in filmic ones.He is not a film composer. He is a composer who writes for film, and tries to sinch his music to the picture. But he writes music.The only other composer that shares a such a position would be Morriconne.

[Jeshopk 8]

If you don't think he's been dabbling in more post modern sounds lately you're not listening to very much of his latest work!

Dear God, is that really so hard to grasp? Williams isn't fit to write 'American Beauty' or 'Black Hawk Dawn' - at least not in the way they were succesfully scored. And now don't you come me with 'War of the Worlds' and stuff like that. That's still orchestral music very much rooted in Strawinsky.

Sir,

Are you kidding me? I am not talking about WOTW, which does have much more modern stuff than the Stravinskyisms anyway. Just listen to the following tracks in their entirity and tell me again Williams has not been dabbling in Post Modern sounds...

POST MODERN sounding Williams tracks (yes, as modern as American Beauty):

Pre-Crime to the Rescue (Minority Report)

Forward to Time Past (Azkaban)

The Raid in Tarifa (Munich)

Becoming a Geisha/Brush on Silk

The Mecha World (AI)

Gupta's Deliverance (Terminal)

Palpatine's Teachings/Padme's Ruminations (Revenge of the Sith)

Of course, I expect the presence of orchestral composing chops in these to throw you off, but the same orchestra plays in the music you mentioned, just not as well written! Have we really reached the point that modernism can't be detected as long as the composer also knows how to write for orchestra well enough?

[Marcus 390]

If you don't think he's been dabbling in more post modern sounds lately you're not listening to very much of his latest work!

Dear God, is that really so hard to grasp? Williams isn't fit to write 'American Beauty' or 'Black Hawk Dawn' - at least not in the way they were succesfully scored. And now don't you come me with 'War of the Worlds' and stuff like that. That's still orchestral music very much rooted in Strawinsky.

I just wanted to stress the fact that todays' cinema, whatever you think of it, and Williams' sensibilities are not in exact synch, although there are exceptions, of course. No wonder, in an industry built on exploiting short-living trends.

That is no good/bad thing, Goldsmith, in his lifetime, also was deemed old-fashioned by Jerry Bruckheimer, of all people. Make of that what you want.

"War of the Worlds" rooted in Stravinsky? Oh, I see, the pulsating rythms and the off-beat accent="Rite of Spring"?

That's very, very ahistoric and incorrect. If you must, try Penderecki; it is a more natural reference.

Thank God Williams doesn't dabble with post-modern trends (Now, exploiting them and adapting them is another matter)!

And why would he? He is a grown-up, and far better than the dabblers anyway...

Modern Hollywood cinema, at an all-time low, is plagued by much greater sense of fatigue than any neo-romantic orchestral composer!

[TownerFan 4,992]

I had hoped to get more of a dialogue as to why I made this assertion but it's clear that either people want to make smart ass quips rather than engage in musical ideas. Sorry for wasting your time.

And for the record, anyone who says there cannot be any objective discussion of music is obviously musically uninformed. Or perhaps uneducated. Either or in my books.

My feelings exactly. I too am sorry it's hard to engage a more rounded and insightful musical discussion here, trying to argument the ideas and confronting the opinions more on the music side. The idea on this thread makes a fine coupling with an other recent one started by Marcus, who asked if in the future John Williams will be considered on par with classical composers.

Here's my two cents: I too agree with Fiery Angel about Williams being the best composer for films, at least among the living ones. In various discussions I had with music educated people who aren't film music aficionados, they all agree about John Williams' artistic integrity and his amazing technical skills as a composer. If you look at his written scores, you'll see why: his writing is so polished, well-organized and finely crafted. His orchestrational abilities are top-notch and he's so damn good at writing themes and melodies.

I'm pretty sure his music will be much more studied and analyzed by music teachers and students in the future. And his music will be considered among some of the finest produced in the second half of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st. I'm confident many of his scores, both for film and concert hall, will be more regularly performed by symphony orchestras around the whole world and put in the same league of the music of the best 20th century composers as Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Walton, Korngold, Lenny Bernstein and Copland.

[Richard Penna 3,797]

I just think it's silly to come into a John Williams forum and ask if John Williams is the best film composer and expect actual discussion.

My thoughts exactly. Quite what else there is to talk about I'm not sure, but it just exites the fanboys around here when someone asks how great JW really is.

[Jeshopk 8]

It's not just fanboys who think Williams is the best film composer. He's the most well known and successful film composer, whose scores over decades are beloved the world over.

[TownerFan 4,992]

I just think it's silly to come into a John Williams forum and ask if John Williams is the best film composer and expect actual discussion.

My thoughts exactly. Quite what else there is to talk about I'm not sure, but it just exites the fanboys around here when someone asks how great JW really is.

Well, I disagree. The fact is Fiery Angel posed what could seem an obvious statement in an articulate and intelligent way, so that it can inspire discussion without being completely fanboy-ish, as me and other people tried to do. However, this kind of discussion seems to actually interest very few people, so let this topic fade away and keep talking about when JW will die or do the umpteenth poll about Top 5 lists of this or that.

[Henry B 51]

I had hoped to get more of a dialogue as to why I made this assertion but it's clear that either people want to make smart ass quips rather than engage in musical ideas. Sorry for wasting your time.

And for the record, anyone who says there cannot be any objective discussion of music is obviously musically uninformed. Or perhaps uneducated. Either or in my books.

Damn! Showed me up.

You know that "objective" means based in fact, right? So how can it possibly be proven as fact that Williams is the best orchestrator in film today, that he writes the most engaging melodies, etc.?

To clarify, of course somebody can objectively say that Williams often writes in the lydian mode or often orchestrates battle music with syncopated glockenspiel strikes. That is totally different from empirically defining his music as "best."

[Marcus 390]

So here are my thoughts:

Williams is, very obviously, the best composer writing for films today.

If he is also the best composer for films, depends on what we want from a film, and how we view current trends in film.

I personally find little of interest in trends per se, and therefore, the question for me isn't so much if Williams is the right composer or not to match a current aesthetic, but rather, if the score is a worthy musical reflection of its film.

With Williams, the question should most often really be reversed.

This is unsurprising: Williams is a deep, thoroughly reflected artist, and will typically respond more thoughtfully and beautifully to the subject at hand, than do most modern film-makers.

Some contemporary film composers have become admirably adept at translating a certain visual style into music (Thomas Newman comes to mind, who also captures a certain 90's flavor of slightly detached urban lyricism. "American Beauty" is a great example, and a most fitting score for this quintessential turn-of-the-century film).

On the other hand, a supremely crafted, classical (in the truest sense) score will always be valid.

Newman will forever sound like late 90's/ early 00's. Which is fine. But John Williams will sound less dated 50 years from now.

If we think about the whole "Zeitgeist" concept, there's always "Zeit" (time), but around it, always elusive, and always relevant, is "Geist" (spirit).

It then becomes a question of scoring a film from a contemporary perspective, and nailing it, which Newman has done so well, as has James Newton Howard at times, or scoring it from a classical perspective, which is to say the perspective of posterity.

[indy4 155]

POST MODERN sounding Williams tracks (yes, as modern as American Beauty):

Pre-Crime to the Rescue (Minority Report)

Forward to Time Past (Azkaban)

The Raid in Tarifa (Munich)

Becoming a Geisha/Brush on Silk

The Mecha World (AI)

Gupta's Deliverance (Terminal)

Palpatine's Teachings/Padme's Ruminations (Revenge of the Sith)

Yes, I agree. But don't forget "The Moon Rising"

[AI 0]

Fiery Angel,

sorry to poop on your thread with my flippant early post, but I, for one, have made a lot of very long posts about this subject in the past.

Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, do it again?

[Luke Skywalker 1,818]

POST MODERN sounding Williams tracks (yes, as modern as American Beauty):

Pre-Crime to the Rescue (Minority Report)

Forward to Time Past (Azkaban)

The Raid in Tarifa (Munich)

Becoming a Geisha/Brush on Silk

The Mecha World (AI)

Gupta's Deliverance (Terminal)

Palpatine's Teachings/Padme's Ruminations (Revenge of the Sith)

Yes, I agree. But don't forget "The Moon Rising"

if you refer to the techno part, it could be composed by his soon. or at least co-composed. Or was it just the vocals?

[indy4 155]

if it was, it wasn't mentioned on the liner notes.

[John Crichton 4]

Williams' son composing the techno parts in AI is one of those "unofficially confirmed" rumors.

[Henry B 51]

So here are my thoughts:

Williams is, very obviously, the best composer writing for films today.

If he is also the best composer for films, depends on what we want from a film, and how we view current trends in film.

I personally find little of interest in trends per se, and therefore, the question for me isn't so much if Williams is the right composer or not to match a current aesthetic, but rather, if the score is a worthy musical reflection of its film.

With Williams, the question should most often really be reversed.

This is unsurprising: Williams is a deep, thoroughly reflected artist, and will typically respond more thoughtfully and beautifully to the subject at hand, than do most modern film-makers.

Some contemporary film composers have become admirably adept at translating a certain visual style into music (Thomas Newman comes to mind, who also captures a certain 90's flavor of slightly detached urban lyricism. "American Beauty" is a great example, and a most fitting score for this quintessential turn-of-the-century film).

On the other hand, a supremely crafted, classical (in the truest sense) score will always be valid.

Newman will forever sound like late 90's/ early 00's. Which is fine. But John Williams will sound less dated 50 years from now.

If we think about the whole "Zeitgeist" concept, there's always "Zeit" (time), but around it, always elusive, and always relevant, is "Geist" (spirit).

It then becomes a question of scoring a film from a contemporary perspective, and nailing it, which Newman has done so well, as has James Newton Howard at times, or scoring it from a classical perspective, which is to say the perspective of posterity.

Marcus, your argument brings to mind an unsettling contradiction: Williams has been known to write in a contemporary style from time to time. Presumed Innocent? Very much a score of its time. Since Williams is absolutely correct in every decision he makes, how could he have crafted a score that is clearly written from a contemporary perspective and thus will not stand the test of time?

I myself would argue that classically-approached symphonic music is not the only timeless form of music, but that is, of course, a lie.