Do you sometimes or regularly listen to classical music?

[Wojo 2,453]

The classical music that I enjoy the most definitely "goes somewhere." By their very nature, this includes overtures, symphonies, and ballets.

[Henry B 50]

Yeah, I'm sure Cage spent his entire life laughing his ass off as he scribbled random notes and threw them at musicians. He must have been completely aware at all times that he was a fraud and was just scamming arts societies for grants. After all, since you don't find meaning in his music that means no possible meaning could exist for anyone else.

Sometimes, I think was aware at all times that he was scamming arts societies and the government for grants. I like Joey225's definition. He didn't write music, he created "sound art." And, no, I don't think there is meaning in 4'33" worth of tacet.

No, not if you compare it to a Beethoven symphony or a Beatles song. Cage simply didn't understand that idiom. His brain seemed to be wired in a wholly different way. Not many of us are like him, but I can at least appreciate where he was coming from.

[Joe Brausam 214]

If you wish I can send to you (and other people who are interested) a CDR with the Heroic Song and I could throw in the Schoenberg piece also.

I'd be interested!

[Williamsfan301 11]

Yeah, I'm sure Cage spent his entire life laughing his ass off as he scribbled random notes and threw them at musicians. He must have been completely aware at all times that he was a fraud and was just scamming arts societies for grants. After all, since you don't find meaning in his music that means no possible meaning could exist for anyone else.

Sometimes, I think was aware at all times that he was scamming arts societies and the government for grants. I like Joey225's definition. He didn't write music, he created "sound art." And, no, I don't think there is meaning in 4'33" worth of tacet.

No, not if you compare it to a Beethoven symphony or a Beatles song. Cage simply didn't understand that idiom. His brain seemed to be wired in a wholly different way. Not many of us are like him, but I can at least appreciate where he was coming from.

His brain wasn't wired right. That much is certain.

[Henry B 50]

Yes, it wasn't wired "right." After all, there is only one correct way to appreciate music. Didn't you say Debussy's music is boring? Well, since your opinion is fact, I guess I should just throw out all my Debussy recordings!

[Datameister 2,044]

You gotta admit, though, Williamsfan301 - the melody of 4'33" sure has a lot of...symmetry.

- Datameister, whose reaction to Cage is typically laughter, a shake of the head, and a distinct lack of contempt for anyone who enjoys it more than I do.

[Henry B 50]

By the way, having attended my college's orchestra concert I can now add Shostakovich's fifth symphony to my list of all time favorite pieces. Holy hell, it's amazing.

[MSM 126]

By the way, having attended my college's orchestra concert I can now add Shostakovich's fifth symphony to my list of all time favorite pieces. Holy hell, it's amazing.

It is. Along with his 9th and 10th symphony some of the best he has written.

If you wish I can send to you (and other people who are interested) a CDR with the Heroic Song and I could throw in the Schoenberg piece also.

I'd be interested!

Please PM me your address and I'll see what I can do (it can take a little while though ).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Yes, yes I do. Regularly.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Yeah, I'm sure Cage spent his entire life laughing his ass off as he scribbled random notes and threw them at musicians. He must have been completely aware at all times that he was a fraud and was just scamming arts societies for grants. After all, since you don't find meaning in his music that means no possible meaning could exist for anyone else.

Sometimes, I think was aware at all times that he was scamming arts societies and the government for grants. I like Joey225's definition. He didn't write music, he created "sound art." And, no, I don't think there is meaning in 4'33" worth of tacet.

No, not if you compare it to a Beethoven symphony or a Beatles song. Cage simply didn't understand that idiom. His brain seemed to be wired in a wholly different way. Not many of us are like him, but I can at least appreciate where he was coming from.

Quite right. Actually the man was part composer, part philosopher. Guess which part was dominant when he wrote 4'33". Don't judge Cage's entire output based on that one piece. Check out his pieces for prepared piano, they are really cool! I could do without Litany: Song of the Whale though. (Yawn)

By the way, having attended my college's orchestra concert I can now add Shostakovich's fifth symphony to my list of all time favorite pieces. Holy hell, it's amazing.

It is. Along with his 9th and 10th symphony some of the best he has written.

Don't forget the 7th and 8th also! Movement 3 of the 8th is amazing!

[Joe Brausam 214]

By the way, having attended my college's orchestra concert I can now add Shostakovich's fifth symphony to my list of all time favorite pieces. Holy hell, it's amazing.

The first movement has a great low horn part too - it's actually a standard audition excerpt for the big league orchestras.

We're doing Rimsky-Korsakov's Cappriccio Espagnol, Dvorak's 8th, and Saint-Saens' 2nd(?) piano concerto.

[Williamsfan301 11]

Yes, it wasn't wired "right." After all, there is only one correct way to appreciate music. Didn't you say Debussy's music is boring? Well, since your opinion is fact, I guess I should just throw out all my Debussy recordings!

I never said Debussy was boring. I said it made me sleepy. Now, if you want to go toss all your Debussy recordings, that's your business.

I know because you're in college, you want to sound all "enlightened" like your "enlightened" professors, so I forgive you.

You gotta admit, though, Williamsfan301 - the melody of 4'33" sure has a lot of...symmetry.

- Datameister, whose reaction to Cage is typically laughter, a shake of the head, and a distinct lack of contempt for anyone who enjoys it more than I do.

Cage's popularity among the "musical elite" is a perfect example of people not wanting to appear uncool to their friends.

[Marian Schedenig 8,208]

By the way, having attended my college's orchestra concert I can now add Shostakovich's fifth symphony to my list of all time favorite pieces. Holy hell, it's amazing.

It is. Along with his 9th and 10th symphony some of the best he has written.

Don't forget the 7th and 8th also! Movement 3 of the 8th is amazing!

I like the... 12th I think it was. Dark, brooding, timpani-heavy stuff that reminds me of the more inspired parts of AOTC.

[airmanjerm 78]

I feel bad for friends of mine that are sucked into the evil that is contemporary music..

Not all of it is bad, but some of it really stretches the definition of music. I prefer to call a lot of these pieces "sound-art" rather than music.

Ligeti wrote a bit of this kind of music as well. (Many of you non-"classical" fans may know his name as several of his works were used as score to the film "2001.")

One of his more "elaborate" works is titled "Poeme Symphonique for 100 Metronomes." In this work, 100 of those old-style metronomes are wound to a different tempo, and started at the same time. The "music" is the sound of hearing them as the individual metronomes wind down.

I also remember hearing of a performance where, just as the last one ticked its last tick, someone sneezed or coughed or stood up and let the chair flop, or something, ruining the last tick. (Ruining is, I suppose, a matter of opinion.) From what I understand, they wound up all the metronomes and let it go again, but I may be mistaken on that part.

Here's a video if you care to spend eight minutes of your life listening to a bunch of ticks (don't listen to this if you are prone to seizures! haha):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8v-uDhcDyg...feature=related

[Henry B 50]

Yes, it wasn't wired "right." After all, there is only one correct way to appreciate music. Didn't you say Debussy's music is boring? Well, since your opinion is fact, I guess I should just throw out all my Debussy recordings!

I never said Debussy was boring. I said it made me sleepy. Now, if you want to go toss all your Debussy recordings, that's your business.

I know because you're in college, you want to sound all "enlightened" like your "enlightened" professors, so I forgive you.

Yeah, sorry about the brusqueness; I'd had a few. My point stands, however. You're just taking everything you don't agree with and tossing it aside in the most condescending way. How can you claim to know what I'm thinking? I'm not trying to fit in with my enlightened professors or any of that. In fact, my professors have given little attention to Cage. They have a wide range of tastes and they don't shove any musical style down my throat. This isn't one of those schools where your grade depends on the orderliness and complexity of your twelve tone compositions. Nor do I think that you should like Cage; I certainly don't. I just think there's a legitimacy to his music, his sound art, his philosophy or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, even though he fails the Pythagorean test for objectively good music.

As for Debussy, you said he makes you sleepy. That seemed to me like a clear dismissal of the composer.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

As for Debussy, you said he makes you sleepy. That seemed to me like a clear dismissal of the composer.

Maybe he meant it in a hypnotic kind of way....

Speaking of hypnotic music, I now have the compulsion to listen to A.I. Man, I love those string arpeggios!

[Henry B 50]

Yes, I understand the hypnotic angle. There are composers that make me "sleepy" in a good way, including Debussy. That didn't seem to be what he was saying, however.

[airmanjerm 78]

WARNING to all my Jwfan.com friends: this may be the most boring, self-indulgent post EVER if you aren't familiar with academic composition programs...my apologies!

Yeah, sorry about the brusqueness; I'd had a few. My point stands, however. You're just taking everything you don't agree with and tossing it aside in the most condescending way. How can you claim to know what I'm thinking? I'm not trying to fit in with my enlightened professors or any of that. In fact, my professors have given little attention to Cage. They have a wide range of tastes and they don't shove any musical style down my throat. This isn't one of those schools where your grade depends on the orderliness and complexity of your twelve tone compositions. Nor do I think that you should like Cage; I certainly don't. I just think there's a legitimacy to his music, his sound art, his philosophy or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, even though he fails the Pythagorean test for objectively good music.

That is great Henry. I am glad your program actually has its students' interests in mind. You honestly may never know how lucky you are!

My experience in graduate school was completely the opposite. I was all but "shunned" because I preferred tonal music, and didn't spend my entire collegiate career working on some "rhapsody" for violin, banjo, and prepared trombone. (lol) I gave every possible bit of effort to "shake hands" with the atonal (etc) realm, but instead had it crammed down my throat the entire time. I took all of the advanced serialism and atonal music classes, read enough Heinrich Schenker to choke a donkey, and had a 4.0 GPA, only to be told - after completing all of my coursework and passing Comprehensive Exams - that I could not write a work for wind band as my thesis document.

Some of my non-composition friends (who knew our studio's reputation for being arrogant theorists who "taught" composition), said the composition faculty was "jealous" that I had much more writing experience and performance credit than they had (I had taken a leave of absence from the Air Force Band in order to finish grad school, so I had already spent a long time writing at that point). I don't know if I buy into the whole "jealousy" thing, I think that, honestly, they just didn't know how to listen to anything written between the harmonic languages of Mozart and the styles of the Second Viennese School. I compare it to a trumpet player being forced to only study Flugelhorn for his entire collegiate career.

I ended up taking the high road without creating a scene...I changed majors to Wind Conducting, did a summer and fall of coursework to graduate, and right after graduation accepted a commission from the department's Wind Ensemble to write an original work for them. Aside from the time I spent as a conducting student, I've considered that the only good thing about grad school was meeting my wife there.

I am glad to know that there are actually schools like yours that let their students excel at the type of composition they actually plan to write. If I could do it over again, I would have definitely chosen another school. (Other than meeting the wife there...! lol)

(Sorry if this is more about my life than anyone wanted to know, including my wife, parents, etc...ha!)

[Datameister 2,044]

some "rhapsody" for violin, banjo, and prepared trombone.

Oh, that's priceless. I'm trying piece together a mental image of prepared trombone...it's not working...but I like the direction it's taking me.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I see a Rube Goldberg or perhaps Dr. Seuss invention.

Hey, I am asking from curiosity when I ask: "How does one receive a commission to write something?"

[Williamsfan301 11]

That is great Henry. I am glad your program actually has its students' interests in mind. You honestly may never know how lucky you are!

My experience in graduate school was completely the opposite. I was all but "shunned" because I preferred tonal music, and didn't spend my entire collegiate career working on some "rhapsody" for violin, banjo, and prepared trombone. (lol) I gave every possible bit of effort to "shake hands" with the atonal (etc) realm, but instead had it crammed down my throat the entire time. I took all of the advanced serialism and atonal music classes, read enough Heinrich Schenker to choke a donkey, and had a 4.0 GPA, only to be told - after completing all of my coursework and passing Comprehensive Exams - that I could not write a work for wind band as my thesis document.

Some of my non-composition friends (who knew our studio's reputation for being arrogant theorists who "taught" composition), said the composition faculty was "jealous" that I had much more writing experience and performance credit than they had (I had taken a leave of absence from the Air Force Band in order to finish grad school, so I had already spent a long time writing at that point). I don't know if I buy into the whole "jealousy" thing, I think that, honestly, they just didn't know how to listen to anything written between the harmonic languages of Mozart and the styles of the Second Viennese School. I compare it to a trumpet player being forced to only study Flugelhorn for his entire collegiate career.

I ended up taking the high road without creating a scene...I changed majors to Wind Conducting, did a summer and fall of coursework to graduate, and right after graduation accepted a commission from the department's Wind Ensemble to write an original work for them. Aside from the time I spent as a conducting student, I've considered that the only good thing about grad school was meeting my wife there.

I am glad to know that there are actually schools like yours that let their students excel at the type of composition they actually plan to write. If I could do it over again, I would have definitely chosen another school. (Other than meeting the wife there...! lol)

(Sorry if this is more about my life than anyone wanted to know, including my wife, parents, etc...ha!)

I took a class once with Quincy Hilliard and I remember him going on a 1/2 rant about theorist taking over as composer-in-residence at major universities and not actual composers. He was soooooooo ticked. His feeling was, it is one thing to be a theorist, another thing to be a composer and that now composition students are getting screwed because all they're being taught is twelve tone math music and not real composition - development of themes and all that.

[airmanjerm 78]

I see a Rube Goldberg or perhaps Dr. Seuss invention.

Hey, I am asking from curiosity when I ask: "How does one receive a commission to write something?"

Hi Nick! We could discuss the commissioning process for days, but here's some general info:

To get a commission, normally a person in charge of a group knows your name and your music, and they feel that your style would work well for their group. Typically, the commissioning party also has an event or purpose in mind for the work: a memorial (very common), honoring someone's career, even dedicating a new band room at a school or something. There are also the "write whatever you want" commissions, which are fun in a way, but a challenge because you really don't get any direction.

After discussing the work with the composer, the composer sets a "commission fee" (the amount the composer gets), and often a contract is signed that includes the commission fee, a deadline, etc. If I am to conduct the premiere, there is an additional fee, because that is completely a separate "hat."

An important thing to learn if you want to be a composer who gets lots of commissions is the ability to show restraint in what you write, and not "over-write" a group. Anybody can write hard music, but if you can write a good middle-school or high-school band work that is interesting, has an identifiable form, and requires just the right amount of rehearsal time, then you are going to do well. It's okay to get into the harder stuff if you're writing for a college group, and sometimes I'll nearly kill the players in our Air Force Band (they can handle practically anything, I've decided), but just be careful with how many bizarre rhythms and double-tonguing licks and high-Cs in the Horns you write. It's good to challenge, but it's not good to frustrate.

Again, probably more than anybody wanted to ready about commissioning!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Very intriguing. Thank you for the information, airmanjerm!

[Williamsfan301 11]

An important thing to learn if you want to be a composer who gets lots of commissions is the ability to show restraint in what you write, and not "over-write" a group. Anybody can write hard music, but if you can write a good middle-school or high-school band work that is interesting, has an identifiable form, and requires just the right amount of rehearsal time, then you are going to do well. It's okay to get into the harder stuff if you're writing for a college group, and sometimes I'll nearly kill the players in our Air Force Band (they can handle practically anything, I've decided), but just be careful with how many bizarre rhythms and double-tonguing licks and high-Cs in the Horns you write. It's good to challenge, but it's not good to frustrate.

Again, probably more than anybody wanted to ready about commissioning!

That's very true. I can't tell you how many times I've pulled a tune and it was commissioned by a junior high group, only to put it in front of my high school and find out it's going to take alot more rehearsal time then I though - or have the exact opposite happen. Then again, there are some extraordinary middle school/junior high programs out there.

[Henry B 50]

That is great Henry. I am glad your program actually has its students' interests in mind. You honestly may never know how lucky you are!

My experience in graduate school was completely the opposite. I was all but "shunned" because I preferred tonal music, and didn't spend my entire collegiate career working on some "rhapsody" for violin, banjo, and prepared trombone. (lol) I gave every possible bit of effort to "shake hands" with the atonal (etc) realm, but instead had it crammed down my throat the entire time. I took all of the advanced serialism and atonal music classes, read enough Heinrich Schenker to choke a donkey, and had a 4.0 GPA, only to be told - after completing all of my coursework and passing Comprehensive Exams - that I could not write a work for wind band as my thesis document.

Some of my non-composition friends (who knew our studio's reputation for being arrogant theorists who "taught" composition), said the composition faculty was "jealous" that I had much more writing experience and performance credit than they had (I had taken a leave of absence from the Air Force Band in order to finish grad school, so I had already spent a long time writing at that point). I don't know if I buy into the whole "jealousy" thing, I think that, honestly, they just didn't know how to listen to anything written between the harmonic languages of Mozart and the styles of the Second Viennese School. I compare it to a trumpet player being forced to only study Flugelhorn for his entire collegiate career.

I ended up taking the high road without creating a scene...I changed majors to Wind Conducting, did a summer and fall of coursework to graduate, and right after graduation accepted a commission from the department's Wind Ensemble to write an original work for them. Aside from the time I spent as a conducting student, I've considered that the only good thing about grad school was meeting my wife there.

I am glad to know that there are actually schools like yours that let their students excel at the type of composition they actually plan to write. If I could do it over again, I would have definitely chosen another school. (Other than meeting the wife there...! lol)

(Sorry if this is more about my life than anyone wanted to know, including my wife, parents, etc...ha!)

Oh, wow. That's the kind of narrow minded, pretentious stereotype I'd like to believe isn't prevalent. I'm sorry to hear it. To be clear, my experience is that of a state school music program. It is, I feel, made up of many brilliant musicians and teachers, but it doesn't have the endowments of a prestigious conservatory. The composition program here is a little nebulous. Last semester we wrote brass quintets and string quartets, this semester we're writing percussion quartets and wind quartets, and it's anyone's guess what's coming next. I like that. We've also had a variety of guest composers speak at the school this semester; everyone from polyrhythmic musician-philosophers far removed from the Western tradition to unabashedly tonal composers. This was set up specifically to expose students to many different perspectives, which I feel is so important. Despite having not been pushed toward one style or the other, I've found my interests naturally expanding. I'm getting interested in tone rows and using them in both serial and tonal contexts.

I know I'll be looking for the same openmindedness when I apply to grad schools in two or three years.

[airmanjerm 78]

Oh, wow. That's the kind of narrow minded, pretentious stereotype I'd like to believe isn't prevalent. I'm sorry to hear it. To be clear, my experience is that of a state school music program. It is, I feel, made up of many brilliant musicians and teachers, but it doesn't have the endowments of a prestigious conservatory. The composition program here is a little nebulous. Last semester we wrote brass quintets and string quartets, this semester we're writing percussion quartets and wind quartets, and it's anyone's guess what's coming next. I like that. We've also had a variety of guest composers speak at the school this semester; everyone from polyrhythmic musician-philosophers far removed from the Western tradition to unabashedly tonal composers. This was set up specifically to expose students to many different perspectives, which I feel is so important. Despite having not been pushed toward one style or the other, I've found my interests naturally expanding. I'm getting interested in tone rows and using them in both serial and tonal contexts.

I know I'll be looking for the same openmindedness when I apply to grad schools in two or three years.

Yes, please do your homework before deciding on a school!

I went to a school that, aside from the theory/"composition" program, had a great faculty and a great music program. (I don't mind telling you that it was the University of Alabama.) The music program there really is excellent, and honestly the theory faculty are extremely talented at THEORY, they just have no business teaching composition.

I enjoyed everything about that university except for that, and met my wife there, so there was a lot of greatness in the experience; but if I had done my homework before going there I should have looked for a place like University of Texas at Austin, where Donald Grantham (a well-known composer in the wind band world) teaches; or, USC, where Frank Ticheli teaches.

So do your homework!

NOTE: My apologies to the starter of this thread...I think I've hijacked it without meaning to. Sorry!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I personally find your posts very informative, and I will be sure to keep them in mind when I become old enough to look for a music conservatory.

[Williamsfan301 11]

Yes, please do your homework before deciding on a school!

I went to a school that, aside from the theory/"composition" program, had a great faculty and a great music program. (I don't mind telling you that it was the University of Alabama.) The music program there really is excellent, and honestly the theory faculty are extremely talented at THEORY, they just have no business teaching composition.

I enjoyed everything about that university except for that, and met my wife there, so there was a lot of greatness in the experience; but if I had done my homework before going there I should have looked for a place like University of Texas at Austin, where Donald Grantham (a well-known composer in the wind band world) teaches; or, USC, where Frank Ticheli teaches.

So do your homework!

NOTE: My apologies to the starter of this thread...I think I've hijacked it without meaning to. Sorry!

Well, see, there's your problem. You went to Alabama. Had you written music for prepared banjo, you'd have been fine.

Seriously, Ticheli is one of my favorite band composers and my students love his stuff too. We've done Fortress, Shenedoah and Cajun Folk Songs II and they just can't get enough. I'm itching to do Blue Shades, but I need a good clarinetist first.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Blue Shades is an absolute beast!

I love his Shenandoah arrangement though.

[Saxbabe 28]

That is great Henry. I am glad your program actually has its students' interests in mind. You honestly may never know how lucky you are!

My experience in graduate school was completely the opposite. I was all but "shunned" because I preferred tonal music, and didn't spend my entire collegiate career working on some "rhapsody" for violin, banjo, and prepared trombone. (lol) I gave every possible bit of effort to "shake hands" with the atonal (etc) realm, but instead had it crammed down my throat the entire time. I took all of the advanced serialism and atonal music classes, read enough Heinrich Schenker to choke a donkey, and had a 4.0 GPA, only to be told - after completing all of my coursework and passing Comprehensive Exams - that I could not write a work for wind band as my thesis document.

Some of my non-composition friends (who knew our studio's reputation for being arrogant theorists who "taught" composition), said the composition faculty was "jealous" that I had much more writing experience and performance credit than they had (I had taken a leave of absence from the Air Force Band in order to finish grad school, so I had already spent a long time writing at that point). I don't know if I buy into the whole "jealousy" thing, I think that, honestly, they just didn't know how to listen to anything written between the harmonic languages of Mozart and the styles of the Second Viennese School. I compare it to a trumpet player being forced to only study Flugelhorn for his entire collegiate career.

I ended up taking the high road without creating a scene...I changed majors to Wind Conducting, did a summer and fall of coursework to graduate, and right after graduation accepted a commission from the department's Wind Ensemble to write an original work for them. Aside from the time I spent as a conducting student, I've considered that the only good thing about grad school was meeting my wife there.

I am glad to know that there are actually schools like yours that let their students excel at the type of composition they actually plan to write. If I could do it over again, I would have definitely chosen another school. (Other than meeting the wife there...! lol)

(Sorry if this is more about my life than anyone wanted to know, including my wife, parents, etc...ha!)

Oh, wow. That's the kind of narrow minded, pretentious stereotype I'd like to believe isn't prevalent. I'm sorry to hear it. To be clear, my experience is that of a state school music program. It is, I feel, made up of many brilliant musicians and teachers, but it doesn't have the endowments of a prestigious conservatory. The composition program here is a little nebulous. Last semester we wrote brass quintets and string quartets, this semester we're writing percussion quartets and wind quartets, and it's anyone's guess what's coming next. I like that. We've also had a variety of guest composers speak at the school this semester; everyone from polyrhythmic musician-philosophers far removed from the Western tradition to unabashedly tonal composers. This was set up specifically to expose students to many different perspectives, which I feel is so important. Despite having not been pushed toward one style or the other, I've found my interests naturally expanding. I'm getting interested in tone rows and using them in both serial and tonal contexts.

I know I'll be looking for the same openmindedness when I apply to grad schools in two or three years.

Wow...fascinating posts guys. As an aficionado of the wind band and its literature, I find this quite an interesting discussion. It cannot be denied that there are some guys making serious livings and names for themselves writing good creative tonal music for middle, high school and college bands - such as Ticheli, Eric Whitacre, and John Mackey. In Texas where bands are a super big deal they are definitely famous even! I think what they are doing is really important to get kids "hooked" on music for the future.

There is certainly still a BIG place in this world for tonal music, look at the success composers such as Jennifer Higdon and Michael Daugherty have had...Michael Torke, Richard Danielpour are two other excellent ones...they write music that readily shows its influences but it is so well-written and relatable to audiences that it is very worthwhile to listen to. Even John Adams, so hugely successful, as well is largely tonal.

What I defintiely do not understand is the double standard with much new tonal music criticized for being plagiaristic (Oh that just sounds like a mishmosh of *insert composer and composer here*) while much atonal new music is lauded for being so "fresh" and "innovative" - while usually it is also ripping off Boulez, Webern, Berio to some degree...

This is a subject I could go on about, but certainly some American university composition schools do not have their heads on straight about the issue of tonal vs. atonal new music. Good on you Jeremy for the commission, there is always a need for good new wind music. It is a shame the comp faculty could not let you express yourself in the way you wished for your thesis...but such is academia..

I am not a comp student myself, but love studying and performing new music. I was encouraged to do further study in wind conducting but am going to go the administrative route..band directing didn't seem quite the right fit for me. Hopefully someday I can do my part to advocate for more new music in the concert hall...in our area it is still far too rare!

As for schools...Univ. of Texas is a hotbed for wind music...my college band director did his Doctorate and Masters there with Jerry Junkin...he is the big poobah there who is much to credit for creating a veritable greenhouse in Austin for wind music. Besides the affliation with Grantham, they have had John Corigliano down for several of his recent wind works and they regularly premiere great new pieces. Besides composers, they are also turning out good young conductors in the band and orchestra world as well. I would not recommend it as much for undergrad based on some of my friends reporting feeling lost in the sheer number of people, for grad school music it is highly rated. University of North Texas is also an excellent music school for grad work (near Dallas), real conservatory type atmosphere with some very fine faculty.

[Joe Brausam 214]

A friend of mine who has been doing film composition at Eastman for his undergrad just got accepted to University of Northern Texas for composition. He's been writing some really great stuff, I wish I could share it with you guys!

[airmanjerm 78]

<!--quoteo(post=550642:date=Mar 15 2009, 08:34 PM:name=Saxbabe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saxbabe @ Mar 15 2009, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=550642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I defintiely do not understand is the double standard with much new tonal music criticized for being plagiaristic (Oh that just sounds like a mishmosh of *insert composer and composer here*) while much atonal new music is lauded for being so "fresh" and "innovative" - while usually it is also ripping off Boulez, Webern, Berio to some degree...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes that's definitely something I noticed as well, and it drove me up the wall!

Rant. Please excuse. <img src="http://jwfan.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Anyone who is a fan of John Williams knows that he's often ridiculed for sounding "like" somebody else, or flat out stealing. I've got news for the critics: there are only 12 different pitches, and they've all been written. All composers borrow, steal, etc. My undergrad composition teacher (Robert Jager) referred to any "borrowed" music as a Derivative (haha).

Robert Jager has also taught me something since beginning my job with the Air Force Band. I will wholly admit that JW is a big influence on my composition work, as are Jager, Chance, and Claude T. Smith. Someone told me once that something I had composed sounded a lot like a John Williams score. I mentioned this to Jager, who asked me "wouldn't you rather be compared to John Williams than somebody that nobody's ever heard of?"

Even more, lots of people don't understand that stealing and borrowing is MUCH more involved than exact melodies. I can't recall EVER writing a piece of music that didn't have some orchestration choices made because of my study of someone else's music. Voicing the fifth trumpet down an octave from the first was something Glenn Miller did almost all the time; John Williams loves to use Lydian scales for fast woodwind & string runs over static major chords (a very jazz-piano-player technique, lol). Jerry Goldsmith's music (and Danny Elfman's, because of his orchestrator Scott Smalley) often moves in mediant relations. Does this mean that any time I move in thirds that I am stealing? Or that if I voice a chord a certain way that I'm ripping off Glenn Miller? Academics and the know-it-alls act as if we sit around in dimly-lit rooms with a glass of gin, scheming up new ways to rip off Mozart or Haydn. There haven't been any good composers since Beethoven, until Schonberg, right? The academics would have you believe so.

The academics are a social club, and they only exist as "composition" teachers because, let's face it, they can't make a living actually COMPOSING music. I don't buy into "those who can, do, and those who can't, teach." I think that's crap. But in this case, it's accurate. Those composers like Ticheli and Grantham who teach while writing on the outside are the ones who really have their art down, and those of you looking into a composition program should seek out those type of teachers. If you can't name a single work that your composition teacher wrote then...why study anything from them?

Rant over. (Sorry!)

[Datameister 2,044]

No need to apologize. I find these sorts of posts very interesting. (And sadly accurate, as far as I can tell...)

[Wojo 2,453]

You had Robert Jager for teacher? Awesome! I absolutely loved the piece Esprit de Corps when I heard it at a district band festival as a high school student, so when I had the privilege of playing it in college, I was thrilled. The flute part is fun. I'll have to give it a listen when I get home.

[airmanjerm 78]

You had Robert Jager for teacher? Awesome! I absolutely loved the piece Esprit de Corps when I heard it at a district band festival as a high school student, so when I had the privilege of playing it in college, I was thrilled. The flute part is fun. I'll have to give it a listen when I get home.

Glad to hear it Wojo! Yes, Mr. Jager (and you do pronounce the 'J,' lol) was a very fun teacher. Esprit de Corps is definitely a fun work, I think a lot of JW fans who don't otherwise listen to "classical" music may like that one.

Fun moment: listen to the intro to "Esprit de Corps," then listen to the beginning of JW's "Over the Moon."

[Wojo 2,453]

I've been part in a few different concert bands over the past 12 years, including a community band for all of that time, and Jager's been a staple alongside Swearingen and others.

[Williamsfan301 11]

Blue Shades is an absolute beast!

I love his Shenandoah arrangement though.

We're working on Shenandoah right now. Rhythmically and pitch wise, very simple but SO musically challenging.

I've been part in a few different concert bands over the past 12 years, including a community band for all of that time, and Jager's been a staple alongside Swearingen and others.

Swearingen I've found is one of those composers that either you love him or you hate him. I like his stuff, but I know some band directors that when you say "Swearingen" they flip their lids.

[Wojo 2,453]

My band director can't get enough of the guy. We've done concerts where 50% of the material was Swearingen, and the rest consisted of Sousa/Fillmore marches, a pop/jazz/showtunes medley, and an obligatory Disney number.

But then again, I'm part of the community band that got "Flight of Valor" commissioned for Swearingen to write.

[airmanjerm 78]

Well, see, there's your problem. You went to Alabama. Had you written music for prepared banjo, you'd have been fine.

All too easy.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Blue Shades is an absolute beast!

I love his Shenandoah arrangement though.

We're working on Shenandoah right now. Rhythmically and pitch wise, very simple but SO musically challenging.

I've been part in a few different concert bands over the past 12 years, including a community band for all of that time, and Jager's been a staple alongside Swearingen and others.

Swearingen I've found is one of those composers that either you love him or you hate him. I like his stuff, but I know some band directors that when you say "Swearingen" they flip their lids.

I'm not a Swearingen fan at all, but that being said, I know kids tend to love him. He's just way too much of the same for me.

I did Jager's third suite I think(?) for my conducting class last semester. That was a workout!

[airmanjerm 78]

I'm not a Swearingen fan at all, but that being said, I know kids tend to love him. He's just way too much of the same for me.

I did Jager's third suite I think(?) for my conducting class last semester. That was a workout!

Yes I get that from Swearingen too, but his stuff is very accessible and he's good at making weaker groups sound more balanced.

Third Suite is my favorite Jager piece. Let me know if you want and sometime I can tell you about a few of the little background "easter eggs" in that one. His sense of humor is extremely prevalent in that work.

[Williamsfan301 11]

Yes I get that from Swearingen too, but his stuff is very accessible and he's good at making weaker groups sound more balanced.

Him and Ostrling too. They both make weaker or oddly instrumentated groups sound good. But, Ostrling too, he's another one where I say his name and band directors bounce off the walls in disgust.

Claude Smith, Frank Ticheli, W. Francis McBeth, David Holsinger and the classic band works (Holst, Vaughn Williams, Sousa, Fillmore) are who I tend to gravitate to alot. I occasionally do Robert W. Smith, but everything he writes sounds like "The Ascension." I save the Swearingen and Ostrling for years when I know I'm going to be out of balance or really young.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I have to say - the more exposure I get to 20th century music the more I'm starting to enjoy it..

[Maglorfin 196]

Do you listen to classical music sometimes or regularly? If you vote yes, tell me which are your favorite pieces/composers.

Definitely. Stuff by Bach, Holst, R. Strauss, Vaughan-Williams, Rimski-Korsakov, Mozart and many more. I also own a lot of full/study scores, since full score study is one of my hobbies.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I'll be going to see the Berlioz Requiem in Philadelphia in June - I highly recommend seeing it to anyone in the area. It's a positively terrifying piece at times!

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I have to say - the more exposure I get to 20th century music the more I'm starting to enjoy it..

Yes, it belongs to the youth but don't worry , you will get rid of that feeling.

[Melange 446]

Do you sometimes or regularly listen to classical music?

Regularly.

[Henry B 50]

I have to say - the more exposure I get to 20th century music the more I'm starting to enjoy it..

Yes, it belongs to the youth but don't worry , you will get rid of that feeling.

Wow, what the hell is your problem?