Virtuosic Score Passages

[Musica42 0]

As I was searching through my collection looking for examples for another post I was struck by just how monumentally difficult a lot of John Williams' music is. That said, there are occasional passages that just make my jaw drop at how especially hard they sound to perform. These are usually found in fast action cues and the like and I was wondering if anybody here had come across such passages themselves and would like to share. The one that really got me going on this was The Mine Car Chase cue from Temple of Doom. Naturally this need not be limited to John Williams only. But I suppose at the end of this it'd be interesting to surmise which of our favorite composers has the most difficult body of life's work.

[Maglorfin 196]

- Trip to Earth from Superman the Movie

- Holiday Flight from Home Alone

[compos24 0]

When I return - I will elaborate on how some of these passages are made easier by player-conscious writing/orchestration.

[indy4 155]

"Chase Through Couruscant"

""Rescuing Sarah"

[Nick Parker 3,040]

My hands get really sore trying to play a lot of Danny Elfman's music (those arpeggios!).

[indy4 155]

I think almost all of Williams' modern action music would be very difficult to sight read.

[Musica42 0]

One of the things that I wish beyond wish I could see is video of the recording sessions for some of Williams' works. I'd love to see how he rehearses the orchestra for some of his more challenging cues.

Anyway, thanks for the contributions. A lot of these cues are ones I haven't particularly focused on in quite some time.

As for Elfman, I notice he tends to write very percussively and pianistic a lot of the time (certainly not always). And while there's nothing wrong with that approach it can result in some painfully unidiomatic writing for the orchestra players. Personally I've always been tucked back comfortably in the percussion section so I've never had much problem with those arpeggios

[Nick Parker 3,040]

And while there's nothing wrong with that approach it can result in some painfully unidiomatic writing for the orchestra players.

Really? I find a lot of his music very difficult to adapt to the piano well.

[Datameister 2,051]

When I saw this thread title, I immediately thought of the mine car chase as well. But the brass gets a better workout in the famed rolling boulder sequence from ROTLA's "The Idol Temple." I remember my mouth dropping the first time I heard those trumpet sixteenth notes outside the context of the film.

[Musica42 0]

Really? I find a lot of his music very difficult to adapt to the piano well.

Are you talking about making your own adaptations or playing pre-existing ones? Personally I find the majority of his piano adaptions pretty friendly to sit down and hammer out. Of course there's always the occasional odd arrangement. For example most of the piano arrangements in my Nightmare Before Christmas book are pretty playable (crazy key signatures aside), but I still can't pull off "What's This" because it's arranged so oddly. But I actually find the majority of his piano adaptions pretty piano friendly.

When I saw this thread title, I immediately thought of the mine car chase as well. But the brass gets a better workout in the famed rolling boulder sequence from ROTLA's "The Idol Temple." I remember my mouth dropping the first time I heard those trumpet sixteenth notes outside the context of the film.

I just gave that piece another listen and holy crap you're right. Great catch!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Are you talking about making your own adaptations or playing pre-existing ones?

I am talking of my own. Apparently, those official ones often lack the heart of the orchestral performances.

[Romão 2,274]

Anakin Defeats Sebulba

[Wojo 2,453]

I'd love to play the piccolo part to "Belly of the Steel Beast."

[Nick Parker 3,040]

If I were a saxophonist, the first thing I would try to play is "Recollections".

[Musica42 0]

I am talking of my own. Apparently, those official ones often lack the heart of the orchestral performances.

Well good piano arrangements of orchestral works are REALLY hard to do. I usually opt for 4 hand piano if I really want to do a score justice (and by usually I mean the single time I did a piano arrangement of a film cue

[Datameister 2,051]

Off topic, but I think it's often possible to come up with a pretty decent 2-handed piano arrangement of orchestral music, provided that music isn't too intensely polyphonic. Some stuff invariably gets lost in translation, but Williams' simpler cues can often be arranged for piano with very satisfactory results...satisfactory to me, at least.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well all his scores start from simple piano demos.

[Datameister 2,051]

Mmm...not exactly. The major themes seem to be presented to the director or whomever on piano, yes, and Williams has said that he composes at the piano. But that doesn't mean that Williams simultaneously plays every single instrument's part at the piano, or that the stuff he plays conveys the same feel as the end product. Some stuff simply cannot be effectively reduced to ten fingers on a keyboard.

But some stuff can.

[Musica42 0]

And I'll jump in and say that more than any other composer I've come across, except for maybe Goldsmith, Williams' music sounds the least like it's been written at the piano. Listening to Williams is like listening to Wagner or Richard Strauss for me, in that its so brilliantly conceived and elegantly laid out on the page that I have difficulty fathoming how a human mind could create such things. With the vast majority of other composers I tend to see how they write just by studying their manuscript scores but folks like Williams (and other brilliant writers like Goldsmith, Broughton, and Shaiman) I look at their music and I see no shortcuts taken. They seem to really have the music spring fully-formed out of their minds.

I guess my point being, that it's these sorts of composers that are very difficult to arrange for piano.

[Datameister 2,051]

Agreed. It's one of the attributes that elevates him above the competition.

[Marian Schedenig 8,223]

Anakin Defeats Sebulba

Unless you're talking about that brief bit at the end which is original to ADS... I don't know how virtuosic Escape from Naboo is to *play*, but it sure sounds like some virtuoso *writing*. Still makes my jaw drop everytime.

[TownerFan 4,991]

The woodwind writing in Hook is some of the most virtuosic Williams ever did. Just listen to the flute part in "The Lost Boy Chase": absolutely amazing and breathtaking, imho.

[Romão 2,274]

Anakin Defeats Sebulba

Unless you're talking about that brief bit at the end which is original to ADS... I don't know how virtuosic Escape from Naboo is to *play*, but it sure sounds like some virtuoso *writing*. Still makes my jaw drop everytime.

From 1 minute 57 seconds onwards it sounds pretty virtuosic to me (starting with some frenetic string playing)and the brass passages sound, although I'm far from being an expert, to be particularly challenging.

And I agree with you about Escape from Naboo

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I always imagined the flute solo in PoA's "Secrets of the Castle" would be a difficult part to do, not only technically, but also in capturing the energy of the bird. The few notes that the piccolo plays (as the melody gets too high for flute) seem flawlessly timed and transitioned too, that takes precision.

[Musica42 0]

I always imagined the flute solo in PoA's "Secrets of the Castle" would be a difficult part to do, not only technically, but also in capturing the energy of the bird. The few notes that the piccolo plays (as the melody gets too high for flute) seem flawlessly timed and transitioned too, that takes precision.

Any time my wife (who's a flute player) get's uppity I like to show her that passage and say "now go practice!"

...I spend a lot of nights on the couch.

[Kevin 22]

-The first 4 minutes of 'You Have The Power' from Dark City by Trevor Jones.

-The first 3-4 minutes of 'Ride of the Firemares' from Krull by James Horner.

[Datameister 2,051]

Excellent example, magical_me. I absolutely love that passage, and it's so brilliantly performed. No mean feat.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,597]

I suppose that, when it comes to technique, "The Mecha World" would be rather hard. To be honest, it is difficult to assess what is hard playing, and what is not, due to the fact that the orchestra could have as many takes of a piece of music as the composer wanted, and he/she would edit the best performances together. I believe that this is called "cheating". Any live performance, where the orchestra is truely "performing" will take its toll, which is why I both enjoy, and appreciate, the playing on the live recording of "E.T."; a remarkable feat, and one worhty of an ovation. I would pay good money to hear played live, some of the "action" music for "The Swarm" ("The Bees Arrive", "Bees Inside", etc.).

[BTR1701 59]

As I was searching through my collection looking for examples for another post I was struck by just how monumentally difficult a lot of John Williams' music is. That said, there are occasional passages that just make my jaw drop at how especially hard they sound to perform. These are usually found in fast action cues and the like and I was wondering if anybody here had come across such passages themselves and would like to share. The one that really got me going on this was The Mine Car Chase cue from Temple of Doom. Naturally this need not be limited to John Williams only. But I suppose at the end of this it'd be interesting to surmise which of our favorite composers has the most difficult body of life's work.

Speaking as a trumpet player, there are a few passages that are extremely challenging to all but the top preofessional musicians. They usually involve those amazing solo passages for brass that Williams loves to throw into his action cues.

For example, there's a nice little brass mini-fugue in "The Last Battle" from Star Wars, where all three trumpets are trading leaping arpeggios. (6:17 though 6:24) Very difficult to pull off correctly.

Then there's the amazing little brass choir that comes barreling out of nowhere in "The Duel" from Empire Strikes Back. (2:35 through 2:53)

And "Luke's First Crash", also from Empire. When Luke brings down the Walker, the trumpets are trading triplet flourishes with the horns and trombones that are bouncing all over the place. Not easy to play at all. (2:59 through 3:19)

And of course, "Battle in the Snow" is a bitch for just about everyone in the orchestra to play.

[Maglorfin 196]

And of course, "Battle in the Snow" is a bitch for just about everyone in the orchestra to play.

Damn right.

The solo percussion (especially the timpani) at the beginning of Buckbeak's Flight also sounds very "interesting" and the first half of FaceHuggers from Aliens (0:00-0:29) also contains some very difficult writing for most of the orchestra.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I suppose that, when it comes to technique, "The Mecha World" would be rather hard. To be honest, it is difficult to assess what is hard playing, and what is not, due to the fact that the orchestra could have as many takes of a piece of music as the composer wanted, and he/she would edit the best performances together. I believe that this is called "cheating".

But if they didn't do that, wouldn't the instruments get out of tune pretty fast given the energetic nature of most film music?

It's an honest question, I'm far from being a connoisseur.

[indy4 155]

I always imagined the flute solo in PoA's "Secrets of the Castle" would be a difficult part to do, not only technically, but also in capturing the energy of the bird. The few notes that the piccolo plays (as the melody gets too high for flute) seem flawlessly timed and transitioned too, that takes precision.

Wow, there's a piccolo in there? I never knew that.

I'll add "The Battle Rages On."

[Wojo 2,453]

Wow, that's a doozy of a flute solo to begin with, compounded with the one or two brief piccolo appearances. That'd be fun to play.

[Musica42 0]

But if they didn't do that, wouldn't the instruments get out of tune pretty fast given the energetic nature of most film music?

It's an honest question, I'm far from being a connoisseur.

Slightly tangential to what you've said:

I tend to favor recordings that are technically and sonically perfect. As long as the seams between various takes are hidden away I actually prefer things to be as pristine and precise as possible, no matter how many takes it involves - but then again I come from a recording and composition background. I tend to look at everything from the composer's point of view and not the performers'. I have plenty of friends who ARE performers that will argue with me until they're blue in the face that single-take live recordings with all their little spontaneous imperfections are what really make music "come alive" and multi-take recordings are comparatively cold and dull to them.

[Datameister 2,051]

The solo percussion (especially the timpani) at the beginning of Buckbeak's Flight also sounds very "interesting"

As a percussionist, I'd say that passage wouldn't be particular difficult. Loads of fun to play, yes, but not "interesting" in an unusually challenging sort of way. And the toms part would be harder than the timpani part, IIRC.

[Musica42 0]

The solo percussion (especially the timpani) at the beginning of Buckbeak's Flight also sounds very "interesting"

As a percussionist, I'd say that passage wouldn't be particular difficult. Loads of fun to play, yes, but not "interesting" in an unusually challenging sort of way. And the toms part would be harder than the timpani part, IIRC.

Actually I am (or I should say was) a percussionist as well. Williams has written some fantastic parts for percussionists over the years (that snare part to Midway March alone justifies his existence in my eyes) but I've never really heard anything that struck me as exceptionally hard to pull of. Marc Shaiman has written a few tasty extended xylophone licks in a couple of his scores (City Slickers II has some especially nice ones) but even those could probably be sightread but a college-level player or better. I guess it just takes a lot to stump a percussionist.

[Datameister 2,051]

Yeah, I've yet to hear any Williams percussion parts that would be truly difficult, though they are almost always extremely effective. I would think the timing in the outfreakingstanding percussion feature for the Tusken raiders in ANH would be tricky to fully master, but it's probably a lot simpler on paper than it is just listening to it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The whistling in Morricone's scores are pretty damn difficult to whistle. I don't know how Alessandro Alessandroni does it.

[Maglorfin 196]

The solo percussion (especially the timpani) at the beginning of Buckbeak's Flight also sounds very "interesting"

As a percussionist, I'd say that passage wouldn't be particular difficult. Loads of fun to play, yes, but not "interesting" in an unusually challenging sort of way. And the toms part would be harder than the timpani part, IIRC.

Does anybody have a sheet music part of it, I've always been interested to see how that introduction is written?

Koray, is this only a joke or is Alessandro Alessandroni really the "solo whistler" on Morricone's scores? Is he credited anywhere?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Koray, is this only a joke or is Alessandro Alessandroni really the "solo whistler" on Morricone's scores? Is he credited anywhere?

No joke, he's Morricone's whistler and is credited on all the CDs I have. They were childhood friends.