What is the last GREAT theme?

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm thinking along the lines of Jerome Moross' BIG COUNTRY, John Williams' E.T.: THE EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL and Horner's TITANIC.

Big iconic pieces of movie music which transcend the movie itself and pass firmly into the realm of popular culture. Someone needs to remind me of whatever managed it, post Titanic, 'coz I've obviously forgotten already.

[Diego 21]

Hedwig's theme maybe?

[Quintus 5,399]

Close, but no cigar, imo.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Duel of the Fates.

[tharpdevenport 4]

Any of the fantastic themes from Gabriel Yared's rejected score to "Troy".

[Quintus 5,399]

Duel of the Fates.

When posting I thought of that as well, but if anything, DotF isn't a piece (main theme) which is instantly recognised as being part of Star Wars, but just something as being 'epic', or sensational.

The three examples I gave above are unmistakably known as music from the respective movie.

Lee - who just realised that the thread title probably should have read WAS and not IS. Oh well.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I thought of that as well, but if anything DotF isn't a piece (main theme) which is instantly recognised as being part of Star Wars, but as just something being 'epic', or sensational.

The three examples I gave above are unmistakably known as music from the respective movie.

I think it still retains its identity with TPM and as such is the "main theme" from that movie, mainly because of its use in the saber fight at the end. But then Star Wars is tricky, because in the same vein, The Imperial March is essentially the main theme of ESB, and - like with DOTF and TPM - on your average "blockbuster compilation", while the title will say "The Empire Strikes Back", it'll always be The Imperial March.

Other than that, who knows.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, it's a bit fiddly to organise, but you get my point, I assume. It's been a long, long time since we had a theme of such stature. Maybe film music is dead after all.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Yeah, it's a bit fiddly to organise. But you get my point, I assume.

It's been a long, long time since we had a theme of such stature.

Maybe film music is dead, after all.

I wouldn't say dead, I just don't think people outside of the enthusiasts really care about it anymore. More often than not films are represented in the mainstream by the songs packaged with them, written for the movie or not, it's been going that way since GHOST and ROBIN HOOD: PRINCE OF THIEVES. There have been some incredible themes written in the last decade or so, but the majority of them haven't managed to worm out into "the real world" as it were. The glory days that Star Wars opened up with the mainstream accepting film scores probably died with GLADIATOR or ROTK. Speaking of LOTR, some of the themes from those movies were amazing, and better than at least one of the original examples you've given. However, with the complexity of LOTR, there isn't necessarily one single main theme, at least dominant in a way that JAWS or STAR WARS or TITANIC's is, to latch onto.

Or it's all Hans Zimmer's fault.

[Diego 21]

If you're going by people recognizing music from film then my earlier choice of Hedwig's theme is very close. At least here in Mexico I've run into some people that think of it as the Harry Potter theme.

[ChuckM 1]

You all are going to hate me for this, but based on the description given, I would have to say "He's a Pirate."

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I think you'd have a better chance of people recognizing the score to Titanic than POTC, DOTF or Harry Potter. People WOULD recognize those, but not as many as Titanic, partly because of that Celine Dion song that used the melody. Everyone knows that damn music.

[ChuckM 1]

I would be shocked to find anyone who keeps up with movies in the slightest yet doesn't recognize "He's a Pirate." That piece is everywhere in pop-culture today.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It sounds like generic NFL football music to me.

"Do you recognize this theme?"

*plays "He's a Pirate"*

"Yeah, that's the Monday night football music!"

"How about this..."

*plays "Rose" from Titanic*

"That damn Titanic!"

[Melange 446]

Hmm, perhaps not a big 'theme' as such.

But Powell's motifs for the Bourne movies really stand out and are strongly tied to the character and movies for me.

They were movies where the music really plays a large part indeed.

2:15 onwards from "

" in Supremacy for example.

I reckon if you grabbed a random male aged 12-30 and let him listen to that,he'd know what it was from immediately.

[King Mark 3,631]

I would be shocked to find anyone who keeps up with movies in the slightest yet doesn't recognize "He's a Pirate." That piece is everywhere in pop-culture today.

to be honest I wouldn't recognise it specifically from PotC .

Definately Hedwig's Theme .It's as recognisable as Star Wars or Indiana Jones

[Hlao-roo 389]

"Hedwig's Theme" has definitely penetrated the public consciousness. We can argue about how much artistic merit had to with it, but it has made its mark.

"He's a Pirate" is probably there, too, although, like KM, I'm not completely sure that everyone would immediately identify it with Pirates.

As much as I like Powell's Bourne material, popular culture hasn't yet embraced it.

[Wojo 2,453]

It does depend on who you talk to. And how long the theme has taken to permeate its way deep into the culture.

I never saw any of the Bourne movies or heard the music, so I wouldn't know the Bourne theme from a hole in the wall.

I have heard the PotC music played at sporting events, and it seems to have supplanted Gladiator as the most popular Zimmer music in pop culture. I've also heard the Fellowship theme from LotR in pop culture.

But neither Harry Potter nor Lord of the Rings are as old as Star Wars or Indiana Jones, and I would go so far as to say that Harry Potter are more of niche movies, while SW and Indy are more mainstream. I know I could find many people who wouldn't recognize Hedwig's Theme, not having seen any of the HP flicks. So while Hedwig's Theme is a great theme, I wouldn't put it up with those other ones yet in terms of social accessibility.

[King Mark 3,631]

Right now I'm trying to play the PotC theme in my head and I can't .I get a bunch of mixed up synth chords

Harry Potter niche movies??? That's Twilight not HP

[Diego 21]

"Pirates" sounds like something from a news alert report if I remember correctly.

[Wojo 2,453]

Stop looking at the world through rose-colored John Williams glasses. Not everybody out there loves the Harry Potter franchise. I hated it until somebody rather cute and sweet persuaded me to see otherwise. There are many out there who still hate it.

[King Mark 3,631]

HP is a big phenomenon regardless of Williams .

[Wojo 2,453]

Whatever you say.

[King Mark 3,631]

well they're building a theme park around it

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's just a section of a theme park.

[Wojo 2,453]

I think we're getting off topic, and I probably encouraged it.

The thread is about "what is a great theme." It is NOT about "what is a great RECOGNIZABLE theme."

If you live in a fantasy world, where every single piece of music you listen to in your daily life is prefaced or followed with Casey Kasem defining what you just listened to, then you are very lucky. If you already "know" what it is, or you only listen to your iPod and tune out the world of news, TV shows, sporting events, marching bands, and other places, well, I don't have an answer for that.

I remember a trailer for a show on PBS where they used the John Dunbar Theme, and I thought to myself, "gee that's a great piece of classical music, I wonder what that is." Years later, I was digging through my MP3 collection, popped in "Dances with Wolves," and realized "oh." That unfamiliarity is based on:

a) the announcer not saying what the music was,

b) the closed captioning not saying what the music was,

c) never having seen the movie,

d) not having enough Barry to recognize the style,

e) and going a rather long time before listening to the album.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the theme. It's a great theme.

[King Mark 3,631]

But Hedwig's theme is a great theme .What John Williams scores do you listen to Wojo? You said you don't put Star Wars or Indy on your ipod...do you listen to any JW scores at all? You always seem to be in a thread to point out how a great JW theme or score isn't really that great

K.M.Still baffled he has to "defend" a great JW theme on a JW message board

[Wojo 2,453]

You're putting words into my mouth.

I know what I did not write, and surely you don't think otherwise.

How would somebody know what Hedwig's Theme is if they never saw the movie or heard the score? Please explain that to me.

[King Mark 3,631]

maybe I misread your post then sorry

[Wojo 2,453]

There was a contest a few months ago, where everybody was ranking the great JW themes. The Blue Fairy theme from AI was in the running. I never saw the film, never listened to the score in its entirety, and I couldn't pick that theme out of a lineup if my life depended on it.

But it's in the running, so it's a great theme. Any JW fan here (other than ignorant lil me) would agree. What advice would you give me if I was required to recognize the theme on the spot? I'm pretty sure you could not.

And that's my point.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'm in the "Hedwig's Theme is JW's last great theme" camp. Don't care about how recognised it is, I still get goosebumps listening to it. Best part is that it's not something many people would write for a movie nowadays and it's a lot more complex and clever than it seems. The whole thing uses all 12 tones of the chromatic scale. But that's neither here nor there for most people.

[King Mark 3,631]

Well no because nobody saw A.I. and the score was mixed like crap in the film so you can barely hear it.

I thought Harry Potter was much more than a niche thing like Twilight. I mean every kid and most adults in the world read the books and the movies are the highest grossing franchise ever

I remember hearing the Teaser Trailer for HPSS and how amazing the music was

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Me too. That trailer pretty much got me into JW. I was a Potter fan before anything. That's a 12-year-old for you.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It sounds like generic NFL football music to me.

"Do you recognize this theme?"

*plays "He's a Pirate"*

"Yeah, that's the Monday night football music!"

"How about this..."

*plays "Rose" from Titanic*

"That damn Titanic!"

Nobody knows the music from Titanic.

[King Mark 3,631]

yes it's the music they played when they announced Avatar as best movie at the Golden Globes

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Your point being? They played "Roar!" at the Oscars last year, that doesn't mean everybody knows it.

[King Mark 3,631]

it was just a side remark that the theme from Avatar sounds like Titanic if played without the ethnic instrumentation

[Wojo 2,453]

I'm in the "Hedwig's Theme is JW's last great theme" camp.

I'll buy that. There are good themes in HP3, but Hedwig's is probably the most far reaching and seminal. I don't think anything in KotCS holds a candle.

Don't care about how recognised it is

That was a tangent somebody started, and I continued. It doesn't have to be recognized to be great. And what counts as recognition? Knowing what it is, or just that you have heard it before, and it sounds like other stuff you've heard? I would say that the PotC theme is very well recognized, does that make it great?

The whole thing uses all 12 tones of the chromatic scale. But that's neither here nor there for most people.

Never knew that. I learned a long time ago that the complete scale is 12 tones, because that's an octave in Cakewalk transposition.

Well no because nobody saw A.I. and the score was mixed like crap in the film so you can barely hear it.

I never saw AI because it never appealed to me, and nobody I knew said "let's go see AI" or "I rented AI, let's watch it" or "ooh, AI's on, turn off that football game." As for hearing it, the mix of the score in the film is irrelevant as long as you can hear an ethereal theme for the Blue Fairy, buy the soundtrack on CD, and hear it there.

I thought Harry Potter was much more than a niche thing like Twilight. I mean every kid and most adults in the world read the books and the movies are the highest grossing franchise ever

You underestimate the purchasing power of the romantic teenage/20-something girl with low self-esteem and suppressed sexual needs. HP may be more appealing, with its solid stories, excellent cast, and slick look, but it is still high fantasy and those are long movies, and the books are longer. It's not something everybody can or wants to get into. Not every kid in the world read it. Like I told you, some individuals hate it.

Highest grossing franchise ever? Not yet. According to Box Office Mojo, the Star Wars franchise (7 films, counting the Clone Wars) has grossed $1.918 billion, while the Harry Potter franchise (6 films) has grossed $1.713 billion. After that comes James Bond (22 films) at $1.608 billion.

Now if you do the math, Harry Potter is on pace to become the highest grossing franchise, because its average per movie is the highest of the three franchises. Additionally, three of those Star Wars movies were re-released two decades later, which gained them more money, but I would consider them to be different movies. HP's box office strength is on first-run of six movies, which gives it momentum.

At least those numbers are all adjusted. Otherwise I would contend that HP is so high grossing just because ticket prices keep going up. Someday the Avatar franchise will sit on top, but only because of all those millions of 3-D ticket sales.

Nobody knows the music from Titanic.

Walk up to a stranger and start humming softly "every night in my dreams, I see you, I feel you." If they don't recognize it and groan, you found a deaf person.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The song, sure. Horner's score? Doubtful.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Your point being? They played "Roar!" at the Oscars last year, that doesn't mean everybody knows it.

I did not know that! When was it played? Is there a video of it somewhere?

[Wojo 2,453]

The "song" is simply Horner's score with lyrics.

The album was very popular back in the day.

[King Mark 3,631]

mostly girls bought it

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Your point being? They played "Roar!" at the Oscars last year, that doesn't mean everybody knows it.

I did not know that! When was it played? Is there a video of it somewhere?

It was played several times, actually, but just snippets. I don't know of any videos that contain it.

[Wojo 2,453]

mostly girls bought it

Girls bought it for the song, but soundtrack fans bought it because it was Horner at the top of his game.

It's on my iPod. My brother will never admit he bought the CD.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Your point being? They played "Roar!" at the Oscars last year, that doesn't mean everybody knows it.

I did not know that! When was it played? Is there a video of it somewhere?

It was played several times, actually, but just snippets. I don't know of any videos that contain it.

That makes sense, Giacchino was music director at the last ceremony wasn't he? I don't watch award shows...

[Red 75]

Probably Hedwig's theme. If you whistle that in public everyone is going to know what it is and where it came from. The "He's a Pirate" theme is very popular, but I don't think it has as much instantaneous familiarity.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Haha, I think I'm going to stay away from the "recognition" aspect of this, after the last time I got involved...

[Datameister 2,044]

For Williams, Hedwig's Theme. Easily. And I suspect that will remain his last truly great theme, though I don't want to belittle the hours of other material he's written since 2001 that still blow most other composers' work out of the water.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Your point being? They played "Roar!" at the Oscars last year, that doesn't mean everybody knows it.

I did not know that! When was it played? Is there a video of it somewhere?

It was played several times, actually, but just snippets. I don't know of any videos that contain it.

That makes sense, Giacchino was music director at the last ceremony wasn't he? I don't watch award shows...

Yes he was. It was awesome.

[Ollie 1,059]

The song, sure. Horner's score? Doubtful.

Well since the score is comprised of that theme, that Horner composed and was responsible for the song, I'd say you're somewhat off.

That makes sense, Giacchino was music director at the last ceremony wasn't he? I don't watch award shows...

Actually he played a bunch of great film music that night. It was a great deviation from the same tired music selections from every other Oscar telecast.

I don't think there has been a true great theme in some 20-30 years.

There have been some very good ones and whether people like it or not, the POTC theme is recognizable to the public.