Scores composed before the film starts shooting!

[filmmusic 1,843]

This is a matter that concerns me a lot lately, after talking with upcoming directors or seeing news on the net about upcoming movies.

Many don't know how music works in a film, and think that a composer just composes music, and then they take it and put it in the film, editing , cutting etc.. (usually that concerns music composed by bands etc. and rarely classical orchestral)

the other day, I was trying to convince a director, that I can't write the music in advance, before I see anything, and then to give it to him to place it in the film.

(and I'm really sure he felt afterwards that I was being snobbish, or that I thought I'm a great composer or something)

How do you feel about that? Do you agree?

Because to me it seems totally unprofessional and ignorant.

The thing I know is that a score is composed AFTER the film is shot and is totally synchronized with the film ..

Every cue has a structure as does the whole music for a film from beginning to end.

of course there are some rare exceptions as I've read about Williams composing some pieces for JFK, before seeing the film..

(and I'm not talking about films which require just a collection of songs or something e.g American Graffiti, but films that require a dramatic score)

[Melange 446]

It depends. If the composer already has a good sense of the subject matter (read a prior novel of the story, or the script) then what he/she conjures up in 'advance' could potentially be close to what he/she will come up with later in the process once the film making is in process. One example of that could be Gabriel Yared and his score for Troy which I believe he researched and worked on for up to a year, before they decided not to use him for the movie? (and he was NOT happy).

Another could be something like the overture for SuperGirl by Jerry Goldsmith. One commenter on a YouTube video of that thinks this was the theme that Jerry probably came up with for Superman years previously when he was considered to score Superman but was busy with other commitments (I don't know if that story is true or not). For themes it may be more realistic to come up with a theme for a certain character based on what the character conjures up just from description.

When it comes to the detailed scoring of scenes though, (true composition of William's calibre and not just ambient soundscape kind of stuff that gently accompanies) I doubt a composer could realistically score the whole thing in advance before the director has begun, although there is that case where I believe Spielberg turned off the footage of the 'goodbye' scene in E.T, then let John score it from the heart and then Spielberg would alter the scene to 'fit' his music.

[filmmusic 1,843]

yes, you're talking more about the themes.

i have no disagreement in that. Usually one tries to make up themes based on the script etc. I'm perfectly fine with this.

But I am talking stictly for the detailed scoring as you say afterwards..

I don't believe Yared composed the whole score, without seeing the movie..

For one thing, how could he know the timings etc..

if i write the music (based just on the script) for a scene, let's say a man opens the door and closes it and i assume this takes 40 seconds.

And in the final film this is 3 seconds.

How the director can take my music and trim it to 3 seconds? It won't make any sense, because when i wrote it, it had a start, a middle and an end.

[Melange 446]

I'm not sure the situation with Yared's Troy really. I think he spent a lot of time getting together a certain 'sound' he was hoping to use, though.

In that way he jumped the gun because in the previews I hear the previewers felt the sound was archaic and stood out too much.

[nightscape94 965]

Gustavo Santaolalla wants to send you a copy of his award winning score to "Brokeback Mountain", where should it be sent? Home, work? Maybe two copies, one for each?

[tharpdevenport 4]

You know what the sad thing is? I can think of half a dozen scores done that way, but can't recall the name of any of them!

[filmmusic 1,843]

Gustavo Santaolalla wants to send you a copy of his award winning score to "Brokeback Mountain", where should it be sent? Home, work? Maybe two copies, one for each?

Sorry? You mean it was composed prior to seeing even one scene from the movie?

[Hedwig 5]

I'm going to write music for a film soon as well, the time is very limited for scoring once the film is shot so I have written the main thematic idea already. I think you can get a theme for a film before seeing it but really for the music to work its best it should be scored with the composer having seen it. The film can often inspire things that you woud not have thought of

[nightscape94 965]

Yes, Lee wanted music written and recorded to be used on set. My comment, however, was merely jokey, I wasn't intending to come off as not agreeing with you.

I guess I like to think of "film music" and "score" as different things. There can be music used in the film just to create atmospher, but isn't necessarily written to the beats of the scene, like in "There Will Be Blood", which used previously available music, or the beginning of The New World, which used the beginning of Wagner's Das Rheingold, or something like that. Things that are written outside the film, either by commission, or borrowed.

And score, which is purposefully, and carefullly crafted or sculpted to the movie by a composer.

Both can be used to good effect, depending on what the director is looking for.

Tim

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Any Morricone-Leone collaboration already had music even before the film started principal production. Such a wonderful collaboration team.

[tharpdevenport 4]

"2001: A Space Odyssey"

Music composed far, far, FAR in advance.

;-)

How about hiring a composer before a film is even shot? That's what happened on "Ghostbusters".

[filmmusic 1,843]

"2001: A Space Odyssey"

Music composed far, far, FAR in advance.

I think that is different concerning the use of classical pieces.

But to ask from a composer to write an original score without seeing anything (and again, I'm not talking about the themes, but the actual score) which must follow the action, comment, give the feelings etc, well, I think it's ignorance on the director's behalf..

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

POTC: On Stranger Tides was composed before the film was made.

[nightscape94 965]

I think your point is completely valid, because that's your personal peference with working in music and film. The director of this film shouldn't be put off by your request, it's perfecly standard.

He/She is obviously trying to achieve a certain effect by having you go purely based on a general idea or emotion than something that is taylored to the film exactly. If that doesn't sit well with you, then that's fine. Maybe they want to be inspired by your music to create the scene.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

"2001: A Space Odyssey"

Music composed far, far, FAR in advance.

;-)

How about hiring a composer before a film is even shot? That's what happened on "Ghostbusters".

That's hardly 'news'. A composer could very easily be hired before the film starts shooting. It's when they start writing that matters.

I believe JNH writes the themes for M.Night movies before shooting starts.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

the other day, I was trying to convince a director, that I can't write the music in advance, before I see anything, and then to give it to him to place it in the film.

(and I'm really sure he felt afterwards that I was being snobbish, or that I thought I'm a great composer or something)

The guy is a cunt! (unless it's Roald)

[tharpdevenport 4]

"2001: A Space Odyssey"

Music composed far, far, FAR in advance.

I think that is different concerning the use of classical pieces.

But to ask from a composer to write an original score without seeing anything (and again, I'm not talking about the themes, but the actual score) which must follow the action, comment, give the feelings etc, well, I think it's ignorance on the director's behalf..

There's a little winking eye under the comment...

[filmmusic 1,843]

I think your point is completely valid, because that's your personal peference with working in music and film. The director of this film shouldn't be put off by your request, it's perfecly standard.

He/She is obviously trying to achieve a certain effect by having you go purely based on a general idea or emotion than something that is taylored to the film exactly. If that doesn't sit well with you, then that's fine. Maybe they want to be inspired by your music to create the scene.

yes, i was talking more generally and rhetorically when I made the previous statement, not for the particular occassion.

by the way, can anyone think of a successful score in a film that was composed that way (before the composer sees anything at all?)

(I don't mean a compilation of classical pieces, or songs etc.. Neither just the themes, nor pieces that were created for another purpose and used eventually in a film.

I mean a complete original dramatic score)

[SF1_freeze 131]

To ask from a composer to write an original score without seeing anything (and again, I'm not talking about the themes, but the actual score) which must follow the action, comment, give the feelings etc, well, I think it's ignorance on the director's behalf..

You are right and wrong at the same time. What if he director wants to cut and shoot a sequence in his movie in accordance to the score you have provided. You would know the time, the setting the mood and the story. That should be enough to get creative although it will be harder without the rythmic of scenes and cuts and may take many revisions till the director is satisfied. And he would only have mockups.

In the end i think this approach creates more problems than it solves and you are right that it is not very professional in most cases (but not in all, depends on the director and his sense and understanding of music)

I also think writing a concert suite / showpiece of a theme before watching a first cut is a good idea. You can (or cannot) show the director a mockup of the theme and you also have an original end credits piece. It also makes it easier to deal with very short timetables.

[Thor 7,521]

It's interesting you should ask that, as Zimmer talked about the same thing in regard to his collaboration with Chris Nolan at the press conference in Ghent this weekend. I shot his answer here:

[Morn 8]

Just tell the director that unless he's willing to cut the film to the music, the music should be written after so it can be a cohesive whole and not a cut up and looped mess.

"2001: A Space Odyssey"

Music composed far, far, FAR in advance.

;-)

Nope, Alex North wrote it after the film was made. Shame it was cut out of the film.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I disagree Morn, Kubrick made the right choice.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

by the way, can anyone think of a successful score in a film that was composed that way (before the composer sees anything at all?)

(I don't mean a compilation of classical pieces, or songs etc.. Neither just the themes, nor pieces that were created for another purpose and used eventually in a film.

I mean a complete original dramatic score)

Inception

[Thor 7,521]

by the way, can anyone think of a successful score in a film that was composed that way (before the composer sees anything at all?)

(I don't mean a compilation of classical pieces, or songs etc.. Neither just the themes, nor pieces that were created for another purpose and used eventually in a film.

I mean a complete original dramatic score)

Inception

Exactly. Didn't you see my Zimmer clip above?

[filmmusic 1,843]

I can't believe how is this totally true.

So, you're saying that he composed e.g. a 9 minute chase music and then the director took it and cut it here and there to synchronize with the picture?

[nightscape94 965]

That might not be true for every cue. It's possible that for certain scenes he began writing thematic material, or very particular cues, in advance to give Nolan something to work around (this is sorta what I had mentioned earlier). But for other cues, like a segment of detailed action, this might have been written to the exact beats of the scene. Maybe they have both approaches.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

That's typically the case with most of Zimmer's scores. For Batman Begins, for instance, he composed the tumbler chase scene in bits and pieces so the editors could edit the picture without being constricted by the music.

It's kind of the opposite these days, where music is really not supposed to synch up exactly with the picture for every little moment. I personally prefer it that way, mickey mousing doesn't work well in live action films.

With Inception though, Zimmer did not see the movies until after the score was finished. He "handed" the music to the sound editors and they did everything else. He wrote based off the script and talks with Nolan.

[filmmusic 1,843]

It's kind of the opposite these days, where music is really not supposed to synch up exactly with the picture for every little moment. I personally prefer it that way, mickey mousing doesn't work well in live action films.

well, i don't think it has to be mickey mousing if you want to synchronize with the picture. i didn't mean that.

Even with a drama film, let's say Schindler's list, the scene for which "I could have done more" track was composed.

I personally would like to have the scene and score it accordingly second by second, to see when there is dialogue, when i have to have a climax, when i have to slow down, when I have to put the theme etc.

If someone wrote a score for that scene, without seeing it or timing it, it wouldn't have the same effect.

And it's not a mickey-mouse scored scene..

[Elmo Lewis 6]

This is a matter that concerns me a lot lately, after talking with upcoming directors or seeing news on the net about upcoming movies.

Many don't know how music works in a film, and think that a composer just composes music, and then they take it and put it in the film, editing , cutting etc.. (usually that concerns music composed by bands etc. and rarely classical orchestral)

the other day, I was trying to convince a director, that I can't write the music in advance, before I see anything, and then to give it to him to place it in the film.

(and I'm really sure he felt afterwards that I was being snobbish, or that I thought I'm a great composer or something)

How do you feel about that? Do you agree?

Because to me it seems totally unprofessional and ignorant.

The thing I know is that a score is composed AFTER the film is shot and is totally synchronized with the film ..

Every cue has a structure as does the whole music for a film from beginning to end.

of course there are some rare exceptions as I've read about Williams composing some pieces for JFK, before seeing the film..

(and I'm not talking about films which require just a collection of songs or something e.g American Graffiti, but films that require a dramatic score)

Sometimes, the exceptions are mentioned so much (because they are exceptions and therefore more interesting than the norm) that they start to feel like the adequate way to go. I sure hope this is not the case with film music and the anecdote you describe is a rarity.

Music and visuals share the same visceral power. They both hit our guts in ways we don't need to understand necessarily. This is why they both need to be in perfect tonal conjunction. Writing music from a script will only result in cues that focus on the narrative aspect of film -- you throw this leitmotif here because this character shows up, you add a few sad chords because the script says the character is crying. This is simplistic film music. A score can, and should, underscore whatever emotions/atmosphere/texture the images convey. It's there for the visuals, not for the story. It's certainly not there for the script either (that's why theater doesn't need music). A composer can't and shouldn't create his own images to compose to. It's not about timing or other issues, it's about exploiting the possibilities.

Even if Seurat wasn't aiming for photorealism, he still went to the park every Sunday to paint his Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte. The fact that it is technically possible doesn't mean it has to be done that way.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Using pre-recorded music is nothing new. In fact for the longest time in TV it was the modus operandi, also in the USA.

All these TV shows from back in the day, Star Trek, Mission Impossible, The A-Team, Battlestar Galactica would have a certain amount of scenes scored, but the rest of it was done by tracking in music not actually written for the scene, over and over again.

I believe it wasn't until the 80's that a union strike put an end to this in the US, and it's still happening in many other countries. Doctor Who for instance, almost every episode is filled with tracked music.

[filmmusic 1,843]

Well, in the end I think it depends on the movie.

I watched today Little Miss Sunshine.

I don't know if the score was composed before or after the composer saw the film, but it sure looked like it could be composed before..

I guess it's what the film requires.

If you want a film with strong sense of musical structure and connection between visuals and music then it should be done the traditional way.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

If you want a film with strong sense of musical structure and connection between visuals and music then it should be done the traditional way.

That's your prerogative. I redirect you to any of Leone's films as proof.

Great composers have directors editing their movies to the music, not the other way around.

[Faleel 5,360]

Star Trek The Motion Picture had "The Enterprise" I believe it was "scored" before the model shots were finished

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Williams scored Tintin before it was finished too.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

yes, and no. What he scored was most likely a fully and nearly fully assembled cut of the film, but just with much cruder animation. Meaning the story beats, the tempo, the emotions were already their for him in more or less finished form.

[KK 3,307]

Hans Zimmer was supposed to compose the score without seeing the film for Inception due to Nolan's request (he didn't want anybody to really see the full film? not sure...). He then worked with the sound guys to synchronize the BOOOMs in accordance with the different levels of the dream. The result? Not really a great score.

On the other hand, Zimmer wrote hours of music for The Thin Red Line prior to viewing the film I believe. The end result? A poetic score of great beauty, one of my favourites from the man.

Do I agree with this method? Nope. While I'm ok with composers composing themes based off the script alone, or developing the general sound and atmosphere of the score. But to compose action cues/chase music and such prior to the film just makes it then becomes stock music. Thats why we have temp music for.

- KK

[indy4 155]

Do I agree with this method? Nope. While I'm ok with composers composing themes based off the script alone, or developing the general sound and atmosphere of the score. But to compose action cues/chase music and such prior to the film just makes it then becomes stock music. Thats why we have temp music for.

- KK

I disagree. The emotional context of a scene can still be interpreted even if the script is the only thing that exists. There is plenty of music that is based on books, poems, etc., and it works wonderfully. In fact, by composing the music beforehand the composer is free from the sometimes restricting editing decisions.

For me, as some one who cares more about music than film, the best case scenario is when the composer writes the music beforehand and the director edits the film to go with the music. And often times, if the isolated music is a superior listen than it would be otherwise, I don't mind if it's hacked up in the film in order to fit the picture.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Great composers have directors editing their movies to the music, not the other way around.

What a dumb aphorism.

[KK 3,307]

Zimmer mentions how he writes the score before the film's completion (I believe specifically for Nolan's films).

http://www.filmmusicsite.com/titles.cgi?go=composertalk&lang=en

- KK