Do scores need melody to be successful?

[Admiral Holdo 16]

Originally I was going to start this with "No, no it doesn't," but you know what? Let's have a real conversation about this.

The divisive response to Skyfall* has been making me think about this. Say what you will about Newman's effort, good or bad, but melody is not its strongest ingredient (and let's not confuse melody and motif with theme - they're frequently synonymous, but not always - though that's an argument for another day). But is immediate hummability a necessary attribute for what we listen to?

Honestly, no, I don't think so. And I'm going to use two fan favorites as examples - Total Recall and Die Hard Yes, there is melody present in both (as there is in Skyfall - listen to Severine and Modigliani and tell me otherwise), but they don't carry their respective scores the way John Williams' ones frequently do, and in the latter case the melody that comes closest wasn't even written by its composer. In both, the orchestra and electronics are largely used for rhythm and texture, and they're splendidly done, both in their films and on their own. Granted, it takes less effort to get into a score with melody at the forefront, but since when has instant gratification been a good thing?

So what do you think? Does it have to have a big obvious melody to be good music?

*Yes, I understand the argument that even on a rhythm and texture level, Skyfall is boring/underwhemling. I won't debate that, it's a valid opinion.

[publicist 4,643]

There is no reason that you can't be emotionally stimulated by a steamroller rhythm like in CLEVER GIRL or - indeed - Hans Zimmer's numerous efforts. Goldsmith once mentioned that rhythms are naturally to follow since they are similar to the human heartbeat in different - and sometimes dangerous - rates.

For traditionally romantic or 'uplifting' music, you need melody or the world stands on its head.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Few scores that lack "a big obvious melody" are commercially successful as a standalone product, and that at least says something about what people on the whole value in music.

--

In film music circles, we tend to talk about "functional" or "serviceable" scores in denigrative terms, but to the extent that a score makes a film more immersive for the average non-aficionado viewer, it is in fact good music in its context. And I think Zimmer largely accomplishes this in his assignments, even at the expense of strong melodic writing.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

Few scores that lack "a big obvious melody" are commercially successful as a standalone product, and that at least says something about what people on the whole value in music.

What about American Beauty? Oscar-nominated, spawned a very, VERY popular scoring style.

Then again, I don't know if the score album sold many copies, so I could be wrong.

[publicist 4,643]

There's more to popularity than sing-along melodies, sometimes it's a style or hybrid of different things that attracts (especially young) people. At least here in Berlin, there's an electronic music culture and i've heard DJ's and artists talk about certain stuff, sometimes Davis' THE MATRIX, sometimes 5TH ELEMENT etc, etc. where they do notice the music (i gladly supplied a friend of mine with 70's electronic scores and Herrmann and he had to refrain from listening to VERTIGO because it was too intense for him...and drug abuse may only partly explain it )

Even in my family i notice how the youngest girls want BELLA'S THEME from TWILIGHT and reject Desplat's more classical sound. So i think that balances the JOHN DUNBAR THEME-crowd.

[Quintus 5,399]

There's loads of gem scores which have nothing particularly special in the way of themes or recognisable melody, but are still peppered with great incidental underscore. From Shawshank to Dawn of the Dead, there are lots of cues in the likes of which which I find extremely enjoyable without either of them being interconnected by much in the way of unifying musical arc.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

To be successful? Probably. To be effective and thus great film music? Not at all.

[Datameister 2,055]

I have a hard time imagining myself fully enjoying a score that NEVER strays into (somewhat) conventionally melodic territory. Good melodies give my brain something memorable and accessible to latch onto. But there are certainly countless hours of fantastic material that don't involve a particularly overt melody, too.

Invariably, my favorite scores seamlessly blend both approaches into a cohesive whole. Too much explicit melody can start to seem repetitive, sing-song, or emotionally manipulative. Too little explicit melody just gets boring. One of the things I enjoy about Williams' music is the way it tends to avoid either extreme.

[Matt C 455]

For me, they have to, depending on the movie and what the director wants. I'm getting sick of the rhythmic chords permeating so much of the action, and the composers either ditch melody or don't know how to write proper ones.

That's what attracts me to Alexandre Desplat's work. His scores may sound too clinical or cold to you guys, but I love how his action music incorporates melody and flies in the face of most of the MV-influenced output.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'd argue that the RCP influenced output is the most melodic.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

To quote Finnish composer Einjouhani Rautavaara:

"Music without melody can be interesting, but so hopelessly untalented. Untalented? Yes, that's the exact word I mean. Everything else in music you can learn, and you can teach. With melody, you either have the talent, or not. And as long as melody comes to me, I will compose!"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nice words Pixie. You comfort me!

[A24 4,356]

Is melody the equivalent of story?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Why? Because if that's the case, then you're not interested in it?

[A24 4,356]

Can you answer the question?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I don't know!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'd say melody is the equivalent of dialogue. Though I'm not sure why you'd want to compare musical language to spoken language.

[A24 4,356]

I definitely can see parallels between different art forms. Melody and story are easily the most upfront and definable aspects of music and film or literature. I'm talking about how most people indentify, distinguish and appreciate these two art forms.

[Brónach 1,302]

Melody is the equivalent of nothing in narrative. Music is abstract.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I definitely can see parallels between different art forms. Melody and story are easily the most upfront and definable aspects of music and film or literature. I'm talking about how most people indentify, distinguish and appreaciate these two art forms.

True. Some people get turned of by a film if they feel it doesn't have a story. and as we can see here, if a score doesn't have strong themes or melodies, many don't find it anything worthwhile.

[Brónach 1,302]

That's powerful shit what you just said!

Nah, with the way Alex edited his post I can see what he meant now.

The similarity I would see is that melody and story tend to be ever present. Some music can have a string melodic ideas that never repeat themselves and I think it would be a melody even though many would prefer "melody" more like the concept of "theme". And narrative tends by definition to have stories. Even though sometimes they're simple, or difficult to detect as stories.

However in the great scheme of things, melody doesn't seem to be a direct equivalent of a story. Maybe a collection of different melodic ideas in the same work would be comparable. Or compare a melody with a recurrent "theme" or motif in a story that has more additional themes or motifs.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Melody is the equivalent of nothing in narrative. Music is abstract.

True, but literature can be abstract as well. They are both forms of storytelling and thus can be compared.

[Brónach 1,302]

See above!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Ah okay. Yeah I meant melody by the actual definition of it. Theme is different.

[A24 4,356]

I definitely can see parallels between different art forms. Melody and story are easily the most upfront and definable aspects of music and film or literature. I'm talking about how most people indentify, distinguish and appreaciate these two art forms.

True. Some people get turned of by a film if they feel it doesn't have a story. and as we can see here, if a score doesn't have strong themes or melodies, many don't find it anything worthwhile.

You get it, Steef.

Melody is the equivalent of nothing in narrative. Music is abstract.

True, but literature can be abstract as well.

Indeed, it can. For abtractness with words, see poetry.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I wrote a poem this morning.

[Brónach 1,302]

Melody is the equivalent of nothing in narrative. Music is abstract.

True, but literature can be abstract as well.

Indeed, it can. For abtractness with words, see poetry.

Naah, you don't even need poetry for that. I've encountered abstract enough passages in prose lol

[MSM 126]

Scores, yes. what else would be left of this second rank classical music? Classical music, no. See how brilliant Schoenberg, Berg, Lutoslawksi are. Unfortunately, film music is not of that quality, therefore it needs strong thematics.

[Brónach 1,302]

what else would be left of this second rank classical music?

Unfortunately, film music is not of that quality,

?????

[MSM 126]

what else would be left of this second rank classical music?

Unfortunately, film music is not of that quality,

?????

Film sores without melody...no they do not compare to the music of the masters of atonal music, although often they try to.

[Brónach 1,302]

They do not compare because they're film scores? What does being film scores have to do with anything?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Nice words Pixie. You comfort me!

A little comfort in dark times can be a wonderful thing. Like a stream of bat's piss, it shines out like a shaft of light when all around is dark.

[MSM 126]

They do not compare because they're film scores? What does being film scores have to do with anything?

They are not written to be art music.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Brónach 1,302]

They do not compare because they're film scores? What does being film scores have to do with anything?

They are not written to be art music.

Music is art.

[MSM 126]

They do not compare because they're film scores? What does being film scores have to do with anything?

They are not written to be art music.

Music is art.

All music?

So John Williams' music is not art (well, at least his film scores)?

Of course it is. But if you take out the melodies... It was a bit of a weird question to begin with IMO.

[p0llux 400]

Scores, yes. what else would be left of this second rank classical music? Classical music, no. See how brilliant Schoenberg, Berg, Lutoslawksi are. Unfortunately, film music is not of that quality, therefore it needs strong thematics.

jesus effing christ

[Brónach 1,302]

They do not compare because they're film scores? What does being film scores have to do with anything?

They are not written to be art music.

Music is art.

All music?

By definition. That's why it's music and not, let's say, sports, or science.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But what is your definition of art?

Can anything be art?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

But what is your definition of art?

Can anything be art?

Not that again!

What does being film scores have to do with anything?

They are not written to be art music.

So John Williams' music is not art (well, at least his film scores)?

Of course it is. But if you take out the melodies...

OK, I'm confused.

First you say that film scores aren't art, then you say they are (well, at least Johnny's scores)...

[Faleel 5,382]

I think he is saying that the melodies are art, but the dissonance's are not

[Brónach 1,302]

But what is your definition of art?

Can anything be art?

-Art is a human medium of expression of creative character, which through a variety of different techniques, produces a series of pieces that are singular and that have an aesthetic finality over a practical finality.

-More broadly, and by extension or tradition, art can be understood as a capacity, ability, talent, experience or knowledge to do something, such as "martial arts" and equivalent expressions.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But you say sports are not art?

If ballet is art, why is figure skating not art?

[Brónach 1,302]

Right now I'm sticking with that opinion. I can change my mind.

In the case of dancing: I dunno. Maybe it depends. I don't care much right now. I'll think about that when I'm not sleepy and I'll tell you back.

[Quintus 5,399]

Melody isn't story. That is a basic definition.

Melody becomes pathos.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Deep, but meaningless

[Quintus 5,399]

Depends on how much you are affected by music [and images] , I guess. Pathos in music is anything but meaningless, to me. In fact for me it's THE greatest thing about it.

[MSM 126]

I think he is saying that the melodies are art, but the dissonance's are not

well, the non-melodious underscores are not. In JW theres always thematics though, also in his underscores.

In classical music non-melodious music has a different meaning.

Scores, yes. what else would be left of this second rank classical music? Classical music, no. See how brilliant Schoenberg, Berg, Lutoslawksi are. Unfortunately, film music is not of that quality, therefore it needs strong thematics.

jesus effing christ

Did you choke in your rice?

[Wojo 2,453]

If ballet is art, why is figure skating not art?

Because even with heavy artistic components, at its heart, figure skating is a competition. Win the highest marks from the subjective judges and earn the gold medal. (Ok, sure, the pros will often stage non-competitive exhibition tours. If you want to call that "art," go ahead.) There is no competitive aspect in ballet, so it is all about telling a story through music and costume and human form.