KK 3,307 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 "We shall befriend the dragon!""I'm not even supposed to be in this story!"The guy who voiced Smaug is pretty epic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Sheeran imitation was spot on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,372 Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 Ha, that was great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,359 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 "Actually Dragons are misunderstood..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 lol!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Favourite Line:YOU. HAVE. BIRD POO!I saw that too. I love how they still used the Misty Mountain theme (well a rip off version to avoid copyright) over the title.The guy who writes the music for these videos often tries to mimic the music of the film. A nice tip of the hat. Even in this video, you can hear him trying to parody the Mordor music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 What a looser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,372 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Was that on purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Was that on purpose?Sigh...Question.Sorry if this subject has been discussed before, but i have been away from this thread fro a while and have NO intention of slogging through pages of content.In DOS the importance of the Arkenstone has been elevated when compared to the book. So much that it actually becomes the reason for The Quest of Erebor (obtaining the Arkenstone would legitimize Torin's claim as leader of the Dwarrow and allow him to assemble an army to take on Smaug)Is this actually in many ways not an improvement over the book?A bunch of Dwarves a wizard and a Hobbit go to a mountain with a dragon in it to...do what? Burgle some gold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I would say it is a better or more logical reason for a film for adults than for a children's book of course.I just don't understand the stone's significance to the whole 7 houses of Dwarves and this vow they have taken over it for some reason. It is never explained in the film, just thrown into the discussion. It has become something else than the great heirloom of the Dwarves of Erebor and changed into the main goal of the Dwarves so they can trigger some kind of Dwarven oath, which we never saw anyone taking or discussed beyond the few lines in DoS. It might have been better if they had not kept this goal in the dark until DoS and established this from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I assume TABA will make it clearer. I think they are building to it.AUJ featured the Arkenstone without ever hinting at it's significance. DOS gave some background on it. The pay off should be in TABA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I assume TABA will make it clearer. I think they are building to it.AUJ featured the Arkenstone without ever hinting at it's significance. DOS gave some background on it. The pay off should be in TABA.They really should have given it prominence from the beginning. It feels somehow odd to have this central item of their quest kept so secret for the whole first film. As a somewhat believable plot device to have the Dwarves go after it is not half bad actually. Needs more exposition though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,222 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Is it just a symbolic object, and Dwarves consider the Dwarf who has it as their leader, but he still has to send a message to the armies for them to come? And how do they then know he really has it? Does the messenger also bring a drawing of a grinning Thorin holding the Arkenstone in one hand and today's newspaper in the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,372 Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 The Arkenstone doesn't mean much to me from seeing the two films. I have no idea what they need it for, just that they want it like they want the gold. Also it comes with good music.Pay more attention to the dialogue in the opening scene of DOS next time you see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,207 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 The bunnies of Doom were physical Earthly vessels created to carry Illuvatar himself. So yes, they predate the Ainur. So they're one level above the Eagles? In DOS the importance of the Arkenstone has been elevated when compared to the book. So much that it actually becomes the reason for The Quest of Erebor (obtaining the Arkenstone would legitimize Torin's claim as leader of the Dwarrow and allow him to assemble an army to take on Smaug) Is this actually in many ways not an improvement over the book? A bunch of Dwarves a wizard and a Hobbit go to a mountain with a dragon in it to...do what? Burgle some gold? I think it weakens too many other things to be considered an improvement. Yes, it gives focus to an otherwise rather fuzzy quest. But it also takes away from the concept of the Dwarves, at least combined with the Ring-like power of seduction it seems to have in the film. In the book (and in Tolkien's writings in general), Dwarves inherently lust for gold and gems and will go to extreme lengths for them (see their war with the Elves, although that ultimately came about because the Elves became greedy as well). Even the most decent Dwarf will be in danger of losing (!) his moral compass if too much treasure is involved. Now when Bilbo finds the Arkenstone, Thorin hasn't even told him about it yet. He just finds it so beautiful that he decides to keep it to himself, as his full 14th share, even though he has a suspicion that they might not be ok with that. It's only afterwards that Thorin claims the stone for himself and has the company actively look for it. Ultimately, Bilbo's decision to give the stone to the enemy as a bargaining token pushes Thorin & Co over the edge, and it always seemed to me that Bilbo giving away treasure to the enemy was at least as important a reason for that as the fact that he actually betrayed the company. Tolkien also takes care to point out that some of the more considerate Dwarves do have sympathies for Bilbo, so there's various grades to their control over their natural greed. In the film, it's simply a magical item that has Thorin completely blinded and acting beyond his own personality (when in the book his actions are very much his own). I'm not even sure yet if Bilbo is lying about the stone simply because he's intimidated by Thorin or if he himself is affected by the stone's power. It's all a bit too simple and deus ex machina for me. Another thought about the Necromancer confusion: However it plays out, these films seriously undermine Sauron's most important character trait: His patience. This is a guy who was happy to stay captive in Numenor for decades (centuries?), slowly corrupting the kings and not chancing anything until his plan was complete. The white council found out about his plans in Dol Guldur when he wasn't ready yet, but he was prepared enough to secretly flee to Mordor. Even his attack on Gondor in LOTR was premature (compared to his own designs), for fear of having someone claim the Ring for himself. And now in the film we have someone who assembles an army to apparently assault a mountain full of Dwarves and thereby completely ruining his own careful, century old plans for world domination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Doesn't the thrush inform the other dwarves that Erebor is under attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 In the book, if I remember correctly, yes.In the movie, no chance this will happen like that.We have talking spiders, a talking dragon, but a talking thrush is pushing it?You do know that Radagast already communicated with a bird in AUJ, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 The Arkenstone doesn't mean much to me from seeing the two films. I have no idea what they need it for, just that they want it like they want the gold. Also it comes with good music.Pay more attention to the dialogue in the opening scene of DOS next time you see it.I was thinking that. I've only seen DOS once and so won't have picked up on everything. But if it was a big thing I would have noticed it the first time.Dude, it was the most important idea behind the prologue! It basically defined the purpose of the entire quest. It was a big thing Yes, so? I never said a talking thrush was pushing it. It's just that the way Jackson is telling the story, I just don't see him using that device. So far, there was zero indication that the thrush will turn out to be something important or that the Dwarves understand the thrush "language".There was a lot of emphasis on the thrush in AUJ. Little hints and nods, (Radagast talking to a thrush, the dwarves mentioning, the thrush tapping against the mountain at the end). I'm not sure if it'll be used, but it is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Another thought about the Necromancer confusion: However it plays out, these films seriously undermine Sauron's most important character trait: His patience. This is a guy who was happy to stay captive in Numenor for decades (centuries?), slowly corrupting the kings and not chancing anything until his plan was complete. The white council found out about his plans in Dol Guldur when he wasn't ready yet, but he was prepared enough to secretly flee to Mordor. Even his attack on Gondor in LOTR was premature (compared to his own designs), for fear of having someone claim the Ring for himself. And now in the film we have someone who assembles an army to apparently assault a mountain full of Dwarves and thereby completely ruining his own careful, century old plans for world domination? But... But... It gave us a cool scene with lot of black smoke... and Azog... and it was cool, right? Right?Isn't the idea that Sauron has been 'patient' in regaining his strength in Dol Guldur. He's forced to act more quickly by inquisitive wizards and the news of dwarves trying to kill the dragon.So, Sauron learns that thirteen Dwarves went to Erebor to try to kill Smaug, and he sends an entire army to stop them? OK... Sauron is easily scared, it seems.In the book, if I remember correctly, yes.In the movie, no chance this will happen like that.We have talking spiders, a talking dragon, but a talking thrush is pushing it?You do know that Radagast already communicated with a bird in AUJ, yes?Yes, so? I never said a talking thrush was pushing it. It's just that the way Jackson is telling the story, I just don't see him using that device. So far, there was zero indication that the thrush will turn out to be something important or that the Dwarves understand the thrush "language".But Bilbo communicated with spiders through the ring, Radagast was talking to a bird, Gandalf is talking to moths, who says either of them won't send the thrush, and PJ changes that part of the story?With all the wild fantasy stuff PJ included in these films, what on earth makes you think he will hold back on talking birds?Who says PJ will use anything to summon the dwarves? They could appear in the nick of time because Dain reconsidered Thorin's plea for help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Well they're making out Sauron wants to use the Dragon. So firstly he'll need to stop the Dwarves killing the dragon, if theres 13 dwarves he's learnt of doing this plot he would be concerned they would get others to help. Hold up. When he found out that the One Ring of Power, the key to his dominion over all of Middle-Earth, the one thing that determines his very existence, was in the Shire, he sent the Nine to fetch. But when he discovers that the dwarves are going to attack a dragon, one who swears alleigance to no one (so Sauron doesn't even know if the dragon will help), he suddenly sends out an entire army? That's some great logic from someone whose supposed to be one of the most cunning antagonists in Middle-Earth.Also, how does Sauron even know about the dwarves' plan anyway? Azog? But what makes him thing these dwarves are even slightly capable of slaying Smaug?Secondly and more importantly, it's unlikely that the dragon would willing give up its mountain to fight for Sauron. Kind of like the chained up troll in FOTR, they'd need to trap him or force him to work for them.Seems a little excessive to send an army. This is where PJ's films look more and more like stupid fan-fiction, than intelligent forays into Middle-Earth (which the Hobbit films never were anyway). And again, why send an army, when you can send the Nine? I mean you did resurrect them for a reason right?Maybe there was a reason Tolkien was always vague about the details of this Quest. I wish PJ didn't touch it, because right now, he isn't doing a good job at bringing it to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 What are you trying to say? "You won't ever enjoy the films if you think they're not good"?Actually, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,207 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 In the book, if I remember correctly, yes. In the movie, no chance this will happen like that. I may be misremembering, but I don't think the Dwarves talk to the thrush. They do talk to Roac the raven, and the thrush introduces them. Roac then tells them that the thrush has been listening to their conversations and has brought word about Smaug's vulnerability to Bard (I think it does talk to Bard). The dwarves then tell Roac to dispatch some ravens with news to Dain, which he doesn't support but agrees to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Ah, yes, correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Did the Raven say "nevermore!"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I agree with SUH.This bashing of every single bit of minutia is a bit tiring.These arent the prequels afterall! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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