everyone needs to Strike Back at the Classical Purist

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Go to the news page and read the story. The woman makes a few intersting points, but her comments on Williams are way off.

Everyone on this board should take her to task. Simple read the report and then send a response. It will only take a few minutes. But it will let them know that John Williams is far more than that woman knows.

Be polite, don't be rude, but please respond to her.

[Luke Skywalker 1,798]

You agaisnt purists? :spiny:

Well i agree with you this time

[tpigeon 3]

i feel the same way, Joe. she made a lot of good points about film music and its importance, but saying that Williams' music all pretty much sounds the same is completely asinine.

Ted

[Luke Skywalker 1,798]

She is right when she says Film music is underrated so, but her remarks of JW only show that she doesn't mind his works. Instead she likes Michael Kamen, who she praises. It is not that she hates Williams , i think that since she is not a follower of his works, she doesnt know him. And with that she makes an example for her article.

(by the way isnt interesting she made the article after hearing Williams music? inside her she loves him )

[Miguel Andrade 1,265]

Joe, I understand you're upset... I'm upset! But for once, I won't reply to the lady's arguments... She don't like Williams music, so everything one may say will always be the opinion of a fanatic, defending is beloved one.

I've done this sort of thing before... even got a letter published here in Portugal a few years ago, but in most cases they really don't care for what you may say and may even get their speech harder next time.

I prefer to continue to spend my energies on divulgating Mr. Williams work on a more peaceful way, though my site, throuh my converstions with others, presenting them with his music, and helping others to know more about his unending art.

But I fully understant all of those who will run writting to this lady... But, as Joe asks, do be polite.

[Lurker 5]

She is right when she says Film music is underrated so, but his remarks of JW only show that she doesn't mind his works. Instead she likes Michael Kamen, who she praises. It is not that she hates Williams , i think that since she is not a follower of her works, she doesnt know him. And with that she makes an example for her article.

How many sex changes are there in this quote?

Neil

[MrScratch 294]

Here was my response to her...

It doesn't seem fair to base an opinion of Williams solely on two or three of his blockbuster movie scores. When a composer is hired he must write music for the film according to the directors wishes. If a director says, "I want something exciting like 'The Planets'" or maybe even, "I want something that sounds like 'Star Wars'" the composer either abides or looks for another film to work on. The Spielberg/Williams association includes many films, and not all of them action blockbusters. Schindlers List, for example doesn't use a single horn or trumpet in the ensemble. Its very delicate music with a Jewish influence. More recently, 'Minority Report' and 'A.I.' weren't very heroic scores and both have an individual sound. Lets not forget that Williams is also a composer of classical music. Having heard some of it I can honestly say that, had I not known, I would never have guessed that they were written by the same guy who wrote Star Wars. Writing music is not easy, especially when composing for a large orchestra and only having a matter or weeks or months to turn out a 90 or 120 minute musical score. Lets be fair to Williams, in 2002 he did FOUR big film scores: Harry Potter 2, Star Wars 2, Minority Report and Catch Me If You Can. Harry Potter and Star Wars do have the same musical approach (big and brassy), but they don't sound like the dark and atonal Minority Report nor do they sound like the light and jazzy Catch Me If You Can. If you are going to judge an artist, lets judge ALL of his works. One final note, regarding "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom"... yes, the film features plenty of Williams' trademark brass but there is also plenty of original ethnic music to depict the Indians and also a terrifying choral chant for the underground cult that I'm sure Williams had a blast writing.

[Ren 75]

so do i post at the site where she wrote?

in the post your opinion section?

[UCFKevin 0]

Why? What's the point? Is she going to read our responses, have a sudden epiphany, retract her comments and say, "WHOOPS, I was clearly wrong, I changed my mind,"? I'm sure she's very well aware of Williams' HUGE fanbase who disagree with her vehemently.

There's a mantra that I like to say every now and then, I'll share it all of you here: "To each their own."

Some people will dislike the things we like. Some people, even here, think Superman The Movie is a stupid child's movie, which of course I couldn't disagree with more, but it's just something that I've accepted. It's the way things go, it's human nature.

[Trumpeteer 302]

Schindlers List, for example doesn't use a single horn or trumpet in the ensemble.  

The cue "Schindler's Workforce" starts off with French horns. But yes, the rest is woodwinds and strings.

Anyway, I like how she contradicts herself when she mentions how much she loved music from "Hook." That alone should have been the point where she should have decided to omit any Williams bashing, since she proved herself wrong.

As a young writer, I find her article/commentary to be very disjointed. No clear examples to back up her points.

So I take her comments with nothing larger than half a grain of salt.

[Ren 75]

it's like saying,

"what's the point of voting" vote doesn't really count.

everything makes a difference no matter how small

it's not like a HUGE deal but all in all, i think the more people that tell her about her writing flaws, the more she'll think about it next time

if not, at least you tried and you can have peace of mind.

[MrScratch 294]

Why? What's the point? Is she going to read our responses, have a sudden epiphany, retract her comments and say, "WHOOPS, I was clearly wrong, I changed my mind,"? I'm sure she's very well aware of Williams' HUGE fanbase who disagree with her vehemently.  

There's a mantra that I like to say every now and then, I'll share it all of you here: "To each their own."

Some people will dislike the things we like. Some people, even here, think Superman The Movie is a stupid child's movie, which of course I couldn't disagree with more, but it's just something that I've accepted. It's the way things go, it's human nature.

I agree, everyone does have an opinion. But, I feel that if you have an opinion you should be able to back it up intelligently. She said something to the effect of "all williams' music sounds the same" and we all know that is clearly a false statement. Whether she reads it or not, I want to voice my opinion. This website probably has a lot of readers who don't know much about Williams or film music. So, I want to get the facts straight to either the author of that article or to those reading it or both. Williams has written like 80 or 90 film scores and not all of them sound like Star Wars or Indiana Jones, contrary to what she was implying.

[Ren 75]

that must be why i had such a hard time writing a response

i thought all her thoughts were just jumbled up

[Miguel Andrade 1,265]

If you really want to show her that not every Williams score sounds the same, you should send her a copy of Images... Otherwise she may not notice the diferences. I've learned in the past, that just as we might be stubborn, defending Williams, she, and other like her, will be stuborn refusing your points. Most of the times is just a lack of time, I sorry to say.

Nevertheless, as Ren points out, every line you write her should make a diference... Lets hope that, in fact, all that makes some diference.

[UCFKevin 0]

Ah, but on the other hand, it can be said and it HAS been said that to many layperson, in truth, Williams' music DOES sound the same.

Only problem is, she ain't a layperson. Oh well.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why take her seriously?

She's into classical music for God sake. :roll:

Stefancos- who would sooner trust a reviewer of Countrymusic Monthly's opinion of Williams.

[Ollie 1,059]

Apparentley she must be somewhat deaf as she failed to recognize Micheal Kamen's recycling of Die Hard in Lethal Weapon, using most of the same material in all 3 Die Hards and all 4 Lethal Weapons. Basically those scores sound all the same. Listen to the main titles for Robin Hood and then the Main theme for From The Earth To The Moon.

[Guest]

I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about that article, it's so vague, innocuous and subjective it has absolutely no critical or journalistic value whatsoever.

Kamen's a hack. She's a hack (writer). Hacks mutually scratch each others backs, it keeps the big wheels of economy turning. And she sings his praises due to her personal "pride in identification" factor, since he hangs around her area in Summer, or some such silly thing.

I think Ricard posts some of these more obscure "news" items with tongue firmly-in-cheek.

[IrishCal24 0]

It's really hard to take this woman seriously when she belittles Williams's work but praises Kamen. Kamen's a decent composer, but he'd rather be a rock star and he's certainly not in the same caliber as Williams.

I agree with your assessment of the article Joe, but I don't think I'll dignify it with a response.

[ChrisAfonso 188]

Schindlers List, for example doesn't use a single horn or trumpet in the ensemble.  

The cue "Schindler's Workforce" starts off with French horns. But yes, the rest is woodwinds and strings.

Still not completely true, there are horns all over the score, but mostly in the background (even "Remembrances" and "Theme" have horns, and in the middle section of "Making the List" (great cue BTW) the horns are featured quite prominently)

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I don't get this. There is absolutely no structure in this article. What is her point, really? That Kamen received two Oscar nominations? Well, Williams has received FORTY-TWO, so big deal. And since when is E.T. a big, brassy, bombastic score? Please woman, get your sources right!

- Marc, ticked off.

Rose from Titanic

[Luke Skywalker 1,798]

She is right when she says Film music is underrated so, but his remarks of JW only show that she doesn't mind his works. Instead she likes Michael Kamen, who she praises. It is not that she hates Williams , i think that since she is not a follower of her works, she doesnt know him. And with that she makes an example for her article.

How many sex changes are there in this quote?

Neil

Two, and well, sorry. Do i shoot myself or something?

[Uni 306]

Uni's Response....or:

How crass would an average article be without a basic comprehension of its subject?

I had to grin while I was reading this. There's really nothing to get that worked up over; it's a simple case of ignorance, coupled with the sort of self-congratulatory nepotism that comes with too many summers at Lake Wobegone-wherever sharing marshmallows and cocoa with a famous person. Shortly after leaving the realm of the ludicrous (saying that all Williams scores sound alike), we enter the realm of the hilarious (praising Michael Kamen for his ingenious command of variety). I mean, of all the composers to personify the gauntlet of originality thrown at Williams's feet--Michael Kamen?

To apply the same litmus test she seemed to think so revealing: Listen to Robin Hood; then take a sampling of The Three Musketeers. (While you're at it, spin a little Igor Stravinsky, and you'll discover the fountain of Kamen's inspiriation.) Even while listening to a certain music teacher's Opus, I had to lean over and whisper to my wife: "Mr. Holland--Prince of Thieves." The Die Hard/Lethal Weapon connection's already been hit on....but then, we're well on the way to clearing things up anyway. And just how far does she expect to go in establishing her premise by setting an Oscar nomination counts and Olympic collaborations as the battlefield...?

Don't get me wrong; I do think Kamen's a respectable composer, and I like his work. But by attempting to add the "-angelo" to the end of Michael's name, she's done most of our work for us. Nobody with an ounce of filmusic understanding is going to buy what she's trying to sell.

But then, she seems to think she's the only one with any comprehension of the art form. To whit:

- The rest is history -- but I warn you, the history of music in film isn't a well-known topic. Can you come up with the name of last year's Oscar-winner for Best Score?

Actually, I can give you the last ten, if you'd like. I warn you in return that film music history is not quite the Illuminati-privileged subject you seem to think it is. (I'll choose to ignore the subtle insult to Howard Shore.)

- Can you name ANY composer who has received an Academy Award other than John Williams? (Hint: I've written about each of the last few Academy Award Winning composers in this column, well before they received their awards.)

Ibid. (Hint: Given the contents of your current article, I'll withhold my congratulations on your past eroicas until I see just what you wrote about them.)

And yes, that little bit about Hook was a screamer, demonstrating that she gave almost no forethought to the article before diving in (suddenly remembering an obscure point of reference she doesn't understand to begin with and that subsequently submarines her own point is kind of a dead giveaway).

This whole thing struck a particularly ironic chord with me, because I've recently been stuck on the second CD in the Williams Greatest Hits collection. While listening to it a couple of weeks ago, something about it just awed me; I was taken in anew by the vastness of this man's creative drive--and the astounding variety of sound and emotion he's able to accomplish. What I heard--and what this woman has never experienced for herself--was the gut-wrenching passion of Born on the Fourth of July, the towering triumph of Summon the Heroes, the piercing grief of Schindler's List, the graceful melancholy of Stepmom, the wicked power of Duel of the Fates, the epic gravity of Seven Years in Tibet, the quiet honor of Saving Private Ryan....and so on. To say that any of these is even a remote facsimile of any Indy score is....is the final condemnation of her own laurels as a conoisseur of the fine art and craft of modern film scoring.

Maybe if her research had extended beyond what lay in simple view of her glazed eyes....("There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your Saturday-afternoon matinee reruns....")

(While I had to comment, though--if for no other reason than the pure joy of it--I don't see any point in responding personally. I literally believe she's in no frame of mind to comprehend the central thrust of these concepts, let alone their finer nuances. Let well enough alone; no reason to ruin her future summer vacations.)

- Uni

[tpigeon 3]

This whole thing struck a particularly ironic chord with me, because I've recently been stuck on the second CD in the Williams Greatest Hits collection.  While listening to it a couple of weeks ago, something about it just awed me; I was taken in anew by the vastness of this man's creative drive--and the astounding variety of sound and emotion he's able to accomplish.  What I heard--and what this woman has never experienced for herself--was the gut-wrenching passion of Born on the Fourth of July, the towering triumph of Summon the Heroes, the piercing grief of Schindler's List, the graceful melancholy of Stepmom, the wicked power of Duel of the Fates, the epic gravity of Seven Years in Tibet, the quiet honor of Saving Private Ryan....and so on.  To say that any of these is even a remote facsimile of any Indy score is....is the final condemnation of her own laurels as a conoisseur of the fine art and craft of modern film scoring.

Very well put, Uni.

Ted

[Ren 75]

holy shit uni.

brilliant

[King Mark 3,631]

well,in the article it shows she doesn't really know what she's talking about.But it didn't offend me as much as the hatefull article that Norman Lebretch guy wrote a while back.

K.M.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

You agaisnt purists?    

Well i agree with you this time

This time around Luke he is not talking about SW purity. Which has been coompletely obliterated like Alderaan.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

God, that lady is so stupid.

You can quote me on that. Her ignorance speaks volumes.

Here is my reply to her (that I wrote with little sleep, and yet it STILL makes more sense then her Williams-bashing tirade):

Judith White is a Clifton Park resident and a classical music enthusiast. Her column is published the second Sunday of each month.  

 

©The Saratogian 2003  

Reader Opinions  

 

Be the first person to voice your opinion on this story!  

 

Perhaps the most notable thing in your article is your obvious ignorance of John Williams' music. You name a handful of 1980's adventure/fantasy films and make the immature conclusion that all of his music sounds alike. Williams has composed for movies of nearly every genre in the past few decades. Can you say that Schindler's List sounds like Cinderella Liberty? Can you say that The Cowboys sounds like Images? Can Stepmom be compared to Fitzwilly or Jane Eyre? Or The Fury to The Reivers? How about any of them against of his very own concert works? Oh, they all sound alike and don't create a 'new sound', eh? If you blab your opinion to the world, shouldn't you at least know what you are talking about? Perhaps you should stop being such a 'homer' and realize that maybe people don't know much about Kamen because MAYBE his music isn't as noteworthy as your ignorance? Hmm... just something to ponder...  

-Chris Chrushercomix  

I also note that it didn't get posted. So far, nobody's has. Typical of a person of her intellect. Only wants to hear who agrees with her, never willing to debate, or admit when she's wrong when someone points it out. Clearly a sign that she is not as smart, wise, or knowledgeable as she THINKS that she is.

I bet if I wrote a reader's comment where I was in total agreement with her, they'd put it up. I hate people like that. She's as dishonest as she is ignorant.

And you could forward that to her if you want.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

PS- That is what I like to call a "GOOD DESTRUCTION!"