Star Wars is better than everything

[GerateWohl 4,482]

As a movie series Star Wars, and the Skywalker Saga in particular is something between Lord of the Rings or The Hunger Games (a 3-4 movie story ark with consistent look and feel) and on the other end Alien or Terminator (one good movie idea, that is ridden to death by different directors and producers over decades because they had one good sequel).

[Nick1Ø66 4,873]

36 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

As a movie series Star Wars, and the Skywalker Saga in particular is something between Lord of the Rings or The Hunger Games (a 3-4 movie story ark with consistent look and feel) and on the other end Alien or Terminator (one good movie idea, that is ridden to death by different directors and producers over decades because they had one good sequel).

 

Terminator and Alien both had one good sequel that genuinely added something to the story and moved it forward in a fresh way (especially in the case of Aliens). After that, it was seriously diminishing returns. I'd add Jurassic Park to this list, except that it really had no essential sequels.

 

You can only tell the same story so many times.

[Chen G. 4,036]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

As a movie series Star Wars, and the Skywalker Saga in particular is something between Lord of the Rings or The Hunger Games (a 3-4 movie story ark with consistent look and feel) and on the other end Alien or Terminator (one good movie idea, that is ridden to death by different directors and producers over decades because they had one good sequel).

That’s exactly it: it’s half-way between a cycle (one story told across several films functioning as chapters, e.g. Lord of the Rings) and an anthology (standalone vignettes in each film, e.g. Indiana Jones).

 

If you look at Lucas earliest ideas for sequels: Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, The Star Wars Holiday Special and the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back, they’re all separate adventures in the style of Indiana Jones. Even after Lucas made the switch, obviously Star Wars remained part-anthology in nature.

[Schilkeman 1,013]

9 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

But Disney wouldn't let the words of George Lucas stand in their way, I'm sure the Rey solo film will reveal her daughter to be the true chosen one. 

I bought the Skywalker Saga box set, but I will not partake. The Bantam era EU, for all its warts and foibles, is much better at showing us the true rebuilding of the Republic, and does so without character regression, or turning the Force into a toy.

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Plot elements don't cohere: Anakin performs a huge massacre not halfway through Episode II, but then in the second half of Episode III, the audience is asked to say: "Oh, he killed Younglings!? ANAKIN!?! O THE HORROR!!"

Well, while we could sympathize to an extent with Anakin's murderous rage over the death of his mother at the hands of the Tusken Raiders, we just couldn't get on board with him dispatching younglings who trusted him. There was a "subtle" shift there...

 

[JTN 2,245]

13 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

This is how I feel about it. I just watched 1-6 recently, and, especially in SE form, they flow together very well. I don’t really care about how well it was planned. I care about the final, finished version, which is not the notes, outlines, scripts, or even the first versions of the films.
 

What George wanted to say evolved greatly over time, and it took him a while to say it the way he wanted, but I think he got there in the end. I know a lot of people don’t, and that’s their prerogative, but for me, what Star Wars has to say about the destructive nature greed, violence, and unhealthy attachment, and the restorative nature of compassion and selflessness, is profound, and has had a great influence on my life and how I view the world. 
 

I agree. And that's why the Star Wars Cinematic Universe should have ended with RETURN OF THE JEDI. Lucas told the story he wanted. Star Wars was always the story of the Skywalkers, Anakin and his children. With Luke and Anakin destroying The Emperor (Palpatine) and the Empire, the story was complete. The End. 

 

The sequels and everything else Disney has been doing is just milking something that was perfect and complete as it was when they purchased the rights to them. And in a way I also blame George Lucas for not realizing it. He wanted to tell the third trilogy, but didn't want to spend 9 years of his life making them, so he gave the keys to his empire to the Mouse thinking that his "woman", KK will be protecting his legacy. Little did he know that Iger had other plans. It's ironic how life imitates art. Lucas' world was turned into an "empire" and his legacy got destroyed, turning one of the greatest cinematic franchises into endless "content" of mediocre streaming shows hardly anyone watches or cares about. Gone is the feel of exclusivity, the feel of something special, extraordinary. Star Wars has become just another fantasy product that you consume then forget a week later and move onto the next content. 

 

Lucas should never have sold his ownership of Star Wars, Indiana Jones and Willow. He could've hired writers and directors to develop his story for the third trilogy and make it for him, with him still owning the franchise. What he did was an act of total abandonement that I strongly believe he now regrets, but can't do anything about it. He's just let it go and moved on with his life, while Disney is continuing to systematically destroy the legacy of Star Wars. It's a very sad story.

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

I'm sure he regrets it, and feels betrayed. He might say he's "moved on," but I bet it enters his mind all the time. It's his legacy they've tampered with, and maybe he was a little naive about what would happen after selling it. But they should have in good faith used his story to conclude the Skywalker Saga, and then moved on to new things and central characters. It still pains me to think about what might've been, and the Luke-Han-Leia (and Lando!) reunion we never got. But it's spilled milk now.

 

[Schilkeman 1,013]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Well, while we could sympathize to an extent with Anakin's murderous rage over the death of his mother at the hands of the Tusken Raiders, we just couldn't get on board with him dispatching younglings who trusted him. There was a "subtle" shift there...

 

I agree, I don’t think it was out of nowhere at all. This is all an extension of Anakin’s inability to accept change and loss, and it happens in a matter of degrees. The Tusken slaughter is meant to shift us into “oh no” territory, but it’s also meant to set up that he had no problem killing children if he felt sufficiently justified.

 

Such a tremendous reaction from the child actor in that shot. Kids dying in movies hits a thousand times harder if you have kids yourself. It gets me every time.

[Tallguy 3,540]

18 minutes ago, JTW said:

Star Wars was always the story of the Skywalkers, Anakin and his children.

 

Star Wars (1977) is absolutely not the story of the Skywalker family.

[GerateWohl 4,482]

39 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Well, while we could sympathize to an extent with Anakin's murderous rage over the death of his mother at the hands of the Tusken Raiders, we just couldn't get on board with him dispatching younglings who trusted him. There was a "subtle" shift there...

 

That is something, that is visible in such kind of action movies since a long time. There are these people that can actually be killed and it doesn't matter much. Because they are evil or inferior  in some way, like stormtroopers or children of sand people. And with others you are really crossing a border if you just hurt them. The moral compass in action movies is still a two class one, at least two class.

 

[JTN 2,245]

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

Star Wars (1977) is absolutely not the story of the Skywalker family.

To Lucas it is. And I'm talking about STAR WARS, not 'Star Wars' a.k.a. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, but the STAR WARS SAGA.

[Schilkeman 1,013]

19 minutes ago, JTW said:

Lucas should never have sold his ownership of Star Wars, Indiana Jones and Willow. He could've hired writers and directors to develop his story for the third trilogy and make it for him, with him still owning the franchise. What he did was an act of total abandonement that I strongly believe he now regrets, but can't do anything about it. He's just let it go and moved on with his life, while Disney is continuing to systematically destroy the legacy of Star Wars. It's a very sad story.

I think his experience on Clone Wars taught him that he was never going to be able to give up control without the art turning into something he didn’t want. His vision is too singular. I think he knew he’d have to sell it and be done with it forever, but I think it was around the time of the “white slavers” interview where he realized this in clarity.

[JTN 2,245]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

But they should have in good faith used his story to conclude the Skywalker Saga, and then moved on to new things and central characters. It still pains me to think about what might've been, and the Luke-Han-Leia (and Lando!) reunion we never got.

I agree. Disney should have made Lucas' third trilogy based on his story treatments that were part of the deal of the purchase. Iger ignored this and even admitted it in his book. So in a big way Lucas was betrayed by Iger, he was led to believe that his story treatments were going to be used for the sequel trilogy. And they weren't. Lucas must have felt awful upon learning that he got tricked. But he couldn't and can't do anything but to accept it and let it go. So should we the sad fact that, as you mentioned, we'll never see Luke, Leia, Han and Chewbacca reunite. But we, as fans and as an audience, should never forget and forgive those responsible for it, because then nothing will ever change and Disney will keep on butchering and bastardizing Lucas' Star Wars. We have to reject the content approved by those who approved the sequel trilogy, until a new leadership comes that will truly honor what George Lucas created. 

10 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

it was around the time of the “white slavers” interview where he realized this in clarity.

Yes, that was a brutally honest interview, Lucas didn't hold anything back, even to the point where Disney could have sued him for defamation. But Lucas will be Lucas, and said FU, he can say whatever he wants. I've always admired him for standing up to the big studios and never letting them bring him down. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

5 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

There are these people that can actually be killed and it doesn't matter much. Because they are evil or inferior  in some way, like stormtroopers or children of sand people.

I thought that might enter the conversation. I suppose we might feel less empathy towards the sand people because a) they're faceless, and b) in the movies they're portrayed as rather nasty customers (never mind The Book of Boba Fett), and the aforementioned c) Shmi died as their captive. But even so, I felt some shock and horror when Anakin said he indiscriminately killed the women and children too.

 

7 minutes ago, JTW said:

...we'll never see Luke, Leia, Han and Chewbacca reunite.

Sorry, I forgot poor Chewy! Just like when he was ignored and not given a medal in A New Hope... Must be evidence of that two-class mentality.

[JTN 2,245]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Just like when he was ignored and not given a medal in A New Hope... Must be evidence of that two-class mentality.

Funny, I never ever wondered why he didn't get a medal. To me, as a kid, he wasn't human, but more like a smart animal, like a very smart dog. So it was perfectly fine for me that only the humans got medals, and Chewie didn't (He didn't seem to mind that much. But perhaps his last roar at the end means "FU and your effin medal!"). But maybe I just didn't realize that he didn't get one. Those were more simple times, without any political correctness whatsoever. ;-)

[Tallguy 3,540]

In both the novel and the comic Chewie gets a medal. In the novel she gives Chewie the medal, in the comic she does not because "few space princesses are that tall".

 

Clearly the medals are for rescuing the princess. Because otherwise why isn't Wedge there?

 

34 minutes ago, JTW said:

To Lucas it is. And I'm talking about STAR WARS, not 'Star Wars' a.k.a. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, but the STAR WARS SAGA.

 

Now. But it wasn't then. And it wasn't until he was writing / making the end of The Empire Strikes Back. Presumably. Because until that moment Darth Vader was absolutely not Luke Skywalker's father. And at that point he wasn't Leia Organa's father either. So it didn't become "Anakin Skywalker's family" until, what? 1982?

[GerateWohl 4,482]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Sorry, I forgot poor Chewy! Just like when he was ignored and not given a medal in A New Hope... Must be evidence of that two-class mentality.

And even worse, how he was ignored by Leia at the end of episode 7 after Han had died and she just embraced Rey, who she hardly knew.

[Nick1Ø66 4,873]

On 19/11/2023 at 4:33 PM, Mr. Hooper said:

I'm sure he regrets it, and feels betrayed. He might say he's "moved on," but I bet it enters his mind all the time. It's his legacy they've tampered with, and maybe he was a little naive about what would happen after selling it. But they should have in good faith used his story to conclude the Skywalker Saga, and then moved on to new things and central characters. It still pains me to think about what might've been, and the Luke-Han-Leia (and Lando!) reunion we never got. But it's spilled milk now.

 

 

I think he probably does regret it a little. Not that he actually wants to run Star Wars day to day again, or even that he'd actually make movies. More like when you really don't want to be with your ex anymore, but it still stings a little when you see her with someone else. And you really don't like how the guy she's dating is treating her.

[JTN 2,245]

13 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

So it didn't become "Anakin Skywalker's family" until, what? 1982?

Vader became Luke's father during the writing process of Empire Strikes Back. It's in the film, released in 1980. ;-)

So Lucas "only" knew Vader was Luke's father since 1978-1979-ish, so Star Wars has only been about the Skywalker Family for 44-45 years. :-)

[Tallguy 3,540]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

Star Wars was always the story of the Skywalkers, Anakin and his children.

 

Children. Plural. So Jedi, not Empire.

 

And when cameras started rolling on Empire Darth Vader was not Luke Skywalker's father. That was another fellow.

 

35 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

And even worse, how he was ignored by Leia at the end of episode 7 after Han had died and she just embraced Rey, who she hardly knew.

 

"Hardly"? That was the first time they met!

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

In both the novel and the comic Chewie gets a medal. In the novel she gives Chewie the medal, in the comic she does not because "few space princesses are that tall".

He could've bent or knelt down to accept it. I call bullshit! 
 

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

Clearly the medals are for rescuing the princess. Because otherwise why isn't Wedge there?

I always thought they were for saving the whole galaxy from tyranny (for a spell, until the Empire regrouped and struck back). Wedge wasn't there because if Wedge was there, all the surviving pilots would have to have been there, and it would've been a long ceremony. So to keep it short, and the focus on the main characters, Lucas only rewarded Luke and Han. Chewy was subhuman so he got nothing. lol

 

46 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

And when cameras started rolling on Empire Darth Vader was not Luke Skywalker's father.

Really? That dinner party at which Marcia Lucas said someone joked that Vader was Luke's father happened after principal photography had begun, and George said "Eureka!" and got on the phone with Irvin Kershner in England? I thought it was at least decided before they loaded any film.

[Chen G. 4,036]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

So Lucas "only" knew Vader was Luke's father since 1978-1979-ish, so Star Wars has only been about the Skywalker Family for 44-45 years. :-)

 

Sometime in April 1978, to be exact.

1 hour ago, JTW said:

Disney should have made Lucas' third trilogy based on his story treatments that were part of the deal of the purchase.

 

My own understanding is Lucas only really worked on a plot for Episode VII. Episodes VIII and IX were not expanded upon in his notes, ergo there wasn't really much for Disney to follow there.

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

My own understanding is Lucas only really worked on a plot for Episode VII. Episodes VIII and IX were not expanded upon in his notes, ergo there wasn't really much for Disney to follow there.

I thought he had this whole story worked out that would center on Leia.

[Chen G. 4,036]

Just now, Mr. Hooper said:

I thought he had this whole story worked out that would center on Leia.

 

That's what he said...after Episode VIII was already out...smacks of apocrypha to me...

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

Star Wars history is a tangled web!

[Chen G. 4,036]

That's what makes it so fun for the art historian to rummage through! 

[Jurassic Shark 12,240]

You're an art historian?

[Chen G. 4,036]

Just now, Jurassic Shark said:

You're an art historian?

 

No. Political historian.

 

But I do art history as a hobby. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,873]

15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

No. Political historian.

 

But I do art history as a hobby. 

So sort of like how George Lucas is an anthropologist.

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

I guess you were among the few who enjoyed the political maneuvering in the prequels. lol

[Chen G. 4,036]

6 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

So sort of like George Lucas is an anthropologist.

 

Hey, at leasy my degrees are in the right field! 

 

Also, seeing as how Michael Kaminski is just a cameraman, and he wrote a book on Star Wars...

[Jurassic Shark 12,240]

7 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

So sort of like George Lucas is an anthropologist.

 

C'mon, you know he's busy making art movies.

[Chen G. 4,036]

Like the ones he made in college...except not really! (Yes, I've been through Lucas' student films)

[Jurassic Shark 12,240]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Also, seeing as how Michael Kaminski is just a cameraman, and he wrote a book on Star Wars...

 

Actually, most camera men (and women) can read.

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Like the ones he made in college...except not really! (Yes, I've been through Lucas' student films)

What's the prevailing thread you noticed in his student films?

[Chen G. 4,036]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

What's the prevailing thread you noticed in his student films?

 

Lucas made eight or nine non-feature-length films, of which 3 are narratives, 3 are documentaries, only 2 are actually "tone poems", and one is some homework in animation that was later entered into his oeuvre as a short film. He also has at least one unfinished mockumentary.

 

So, he was more a documentary filmmaker than some high falutin, abstract montagist.

[Jurassic Shark 12,240]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

He also has at least one unfinished mockumentary.

 

The making of the prequels, you mean?

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

But in terms of the narratives, was he leaning towards sci-fi stuff even then?

[Chen G. 4,036]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

was he leaning towards sci-fi stuff even then?

 

Lucas did an undergraduate in film, and then a term in graduate school (although I don't believe he got a graduate's diploma). His undergraduate films tend to be more social: images of protests, people on the run from what looks like east Germany...that kind of stuff. To be expected of a film student in the 1960s.

 

Then in graduate school, I believe he was fired up by Godard's Alphaville and he started doing more non-realistic films: Everyone Lived in a Pretty [How] Town is about a photographer whose camera magically makes people disappear into the polariod, and then there's his student-film version of THX...

 

Lucas was imaginative at an early age: we have a short story of his from the Third Grade, and we do know he loved comics and movie serials (it was the 50s: what kid didnt?). So he definitely had an interest in the genre from an early age, although I personally believe most the sources for Star Wars were things he wasn't really aware of until he started his research in late 1972: Burroughs, EE Smith, Tolkien and all that.

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

For others who haven't seen it...

 

 

[Chen G. 4,036]

FYI: "Electronic Labyrinth" was added to the title later. Lucas being Lucas...

 

Same with "LOOK at LIFE." As originally submitted to his animation class, it was "LOOK at LIFE, Kinestasic project by George Lucas." At some later point it was souped up to say "LOOK at LIFE, a short film by George Lucas."

 

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,984]

And now for something completely different...

 

For those who forgot to mark their calendar, November 17th marked the 45th anniversary of the Star Wars Holiday Special.

 

Enjoy.

 

 

[Chen G. 4,036]

Ah, memories of Carrie Fisher cracking on the high notes...

[greenturnedblue 372]

On 18/11/2023 at 1:09 PM, Chen G. said:

But at least I guess its a nice paradigm for the "symbiont" relationship between the Naboo and the Gungans that runs through the film.

 

I really like this aspect of TPM! Quote from John Kenneth Muir:

Quote

 

The first film [The Phantom Menace] much more intriguing and success- ful than many other reviewers claim or viewers consider. Virtually every key relationship in the film is defined in part or completely by Lucas's concept of symbiont circles-the idea that people and their fates are connected. This is the idea that such symbiont circles involve connections that aren't always seen (hence the "phantom" of the title). Sometimes the real symbiont circles are merely hinted at, or only partially detected. Lucas's leitmotif of symbiont cir- cles allows him to reach beyond the binary "light side" / "dark side" dichotomy of the original trilogy and aim for some fascinating material.

For instance, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan attempt to convince Boss Nass, on Naboo, that their fate will be the same as that of the humanoids under Fed- eration rule, because they share the same planet. Later, Amidala also presses this concern with them. The fate of Naboo is one that is shared, because the Gungans and the humanoids are linked. The underwater chase, with the big fish eating the smaller fish (which is attempting to eat Qui-Gon's sub) also suggests this kind of symbiont circle. Certainly, in more familiar territory, the dominance of the Jedi has caused the fall of the Sith. But the arrogance of the Jedi has also given the Sith room to plot in secret and reassert themselves. Again, a symbiont circle. I don't think I've ever read any analysis of the film that points out this theme or acknowledges how it runs through the film's drama.

 

 

[Chen G. 4,036]

20 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

For instance, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan attempt to convince Boss Nass, on Naboo, that their fate will be the same as that of the humanoids under Fed- eration rule, because they share the same planet. Later, Amidala also presses this concern with them. The fate of Naboo is one that is shared, because the Gungans and the humanoids are linked.

 

You can build a big philosophy around it if you want, but ultimately that's just Edgar Rice Burroughs' A Princess of Mars: John Carter proves himself to the "green" Tharks and their leader Tars Tarkas, and leads them together with the humanoid Heliumites against Zodagna... Same as the Ewok story in Return of the Jedi, too.

 

Also from Burroughs: A desert planet with two moons, a damsel-in-distress storyline, a lot of Frazetta-esque visuals (so, basically the entire Jabba short), crumbling, earthen cities (the "used" look of Tatooine) and, in name, Banthas (Banths), Sith, Padwaans (Padwar), Jedi (Jed)...You get the picture...

[greenturnedblue 372]

 Another quote from Ray Morton on the mythical elements of the prequels:

Quote

Menace (and the prequel trilogy in general) does not draw as much upon the classical tropes and archetypes of the world's myths, legends, and fairy tales as the original trilogy did. There's not as much of the mystical or of "serious" fantasy in these new films, and the only element from the universal myth prominent in the prequel narrative is the notion of a "Chosen One," which unfortunately is one of the hoariest and most clichéd concepts in fantastic literature. The prequel trilogy did lean more into religious elements than the earlier trio, most notably with the notion that Anakin's birth had been a virgin one (although using a concept so closely associated with the Christ story for a character destined to become a mass-murdering monster seems an odd choice), as well as the design of Darth Maul, which was meant to evoke biblical images of the Devil.

 

[Chen G. 4,036]

Hmm...

 

I did a very penetrating review of any "mythic" or "fairytale" elements in Star Wars, and they're almost all squarely from Edgar Rice Burroughs (the damsel-in-distress storyline), JRR Tolkien (The everyman hero, the wizard and the underlying "don't judge a book by its cover" moral) and the fable-like construction of the original film around Ben's "Trust your feelings," a patently 1970s message.

 

I do agree that by the time the prequel trilogy came about, Lucas left the fairytale elements (which he got out of his system with Willow and its forebearer, The Ewok Adventure, the most fairytale-tinged of all of Lucas' films) well behind, using instead the shorthand of Hollywood costume dramas. However, Revenge of the Sith is the exception to the rule: Lucas' main "scholarly" portal into the realm of fairytale was Bruno Bettelheim's The Uses of Enchantment, and being a Freudian, Bettelheim provides a brief synopsis of Oedipus Rex, which we know Lucas took notice of, because he talked about it, and we know he had it on his mind just before Sith, because he literally called the Jedi librarian in Attack of the Clones Jocasta...

 

So I would say Revenge of the Sith (and, to a lesser extent, The Empire Strikes Back) are the most mythological in Lucas' oeuvre; The Ewok Adventure, Star Wars and to a lesser extent Willow and Return of the Jedi are the most fairytale like; The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones are more costume drama-like. Primarily, of course, they're all just space opera yarns, basically Lensmen visiting Barsoom.

[greenturnedblue 372]

9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

"mythic" or "fairytale" elements in Star Wars

No mention of The Hero with a Thousand Faces?

 

Also, you're in Israel? Hope you're doing good

[Chen G. 4,036]

17 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

No mention of The Hero with a Thousand Faces?=

 

I went right through Campbell'sThe Hero With a Thousand Faces, Myths to Live By and some of The Masks of God, and through every draft, every bundle of notes, every outtake or deleted scene, every interview of Lucas or his colleages that I could get a hand on, every storyboard or concept art, and I've yet to find something concrete that I can point to and say: "Lucas got THIS from Campbell." Mind you, Campbell's book (which has all the academic value of Heidi, by the way: Campbell having been a thorough dilletante) is an extremly difficult, nigh-impenetrable read. Its the kind of pseudo-Jungian psychobabble that today would be the stuff of parody.

 

Lucas was surely aware of Campbell's work, but actually trudging through it? Nah, I don't buy it. Lucas was never much of a book worm, and in spite of his protestation, never majored in anthropology. He may have heard of it via Arthur C. Clarke's diaries, which were published in the 70s. Clarke record that Kubrick showed him Campbell's book. Much the same is true for Lucas' suggestion that he gave The Golden Bough a look: I don't for a second believe he read through it, and I can't find any paper-trail leading from Lucas' writing back to it.

 

Whereas the correspondces with Bettelheim's book - while entirely superficial by way of an influence on Lucas' films - are staggering. For one thing, Lucas' notes often quote entire passages from Bettelheim verbatim, and whenever Lucas is talking about myth and fairytales and whatever in interviews, you can usually find that he's paraphrasing on something to be found in Bettelheim's book, a far lighter read (though no less vacuous, academically) than Campbell.

 

For instance, Bettelheim:

 

Quote

[...] children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy. [...] It seems particularly appropriate to a child that exactly what the evildoer wishes to inflict on the hero should be the bad person’s fate [...] At this age, from four until puberty, what the child needs most is to be presented with symbolic images which reassure him that there is a happy solution to his oedipal problems

 

Lucas' notes:

 

Quote

Children are innocent and love justice. While most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy … Need symbolic images which reassure them that there is a happy ending, solution to the Oedipal problems … What the evildoer wishes to inflict on the hero should be the bad person’s fate.”

 

An interview of Lucas:

 

Quote

If I ever consciously used anything that I read, it was to make the story more consistent with traditional fairytales. For example, if there was a part in which Luke had two trials, I would try to make it three, because three is more consistent with hero myths. But if adding a third trial jeopardised the story, I wouldn't do it.

 

A passage from Bettelheim's book:

 

Quote

The number three in fairy tales often seems to refer to what in psychoanalysis is as the three aspects of the mind [...] Goldilocks encounters the three dishes, beds, chairs – for three separate efforts mark her entrance into the Bears’ dwelling. [...] three encounters with the man, three exchanges of a cow for a magic object, three nights with the princess.

 

There are other "scholarly" sources that, again, have direct correspondeces with Lucas' notes (although little by way of detectable influence on the films), mostly Carlos Castaneda's (yet another fraud) The Road to Ixtlan and Tales of Power: again, we have direct references in Lucas drafts (The third draft synopsis literally says Obi Wan can "do magic like Don Juan", the character in Castaneda's book), lines quoted verbatim, including Yoda's: "Luminous beings are we", etc...

[greenturnedblue 372]

Odd, I seem to recall you saying at some point Lucas ripped Luke's journey straight from Campbell's concept of a heroes journey

 

What does Kaminsky make of SW's mythical/biblical/fairytale elements?