Jeremy Soule on "Hook"

[publicist 4,643]

I have listened to post-tonal music, and I find it to be a real turn-off. The works of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern, and others after them are made using math, not music theory, and my musical world revolves around tonality.

Thank god that people like Goldsmith (and even Williams) didn't have this attitude some odd 50 years before. The intellectual stimulus of such concepts (as serial music or 12 tone) doesn't include that now all music forever will be like it, but more that it sets free creative impulses.

Techniques of atonal and non-tonal composition are now a part of most composers vocabulary and lots of musical works, especially in something as eclectic film music, profit from it.

[RedBard 71]

You have hours of research into it. Fine. I have about 15 years. With all due respect, you do have some musical growth ahead of you. I know I had more than one period of thinking I had it all figured out. I really, really urge you to give ear to music that doesn't speak to you - especially that music. Taste and understanding don't always develop from one experience, one impression.

Was it really 15 years (i.e. over 100,000 hours of research), or was it in periods of research like myself? Because I can then easily say I have at least 10 years of research. I'll catch up. ^_^

If it's any indication of musical growth to you (or what qualifies it as such in your eyes), I have also composed in early modern styles while in university and in leisure, including twelve-tone and serialism. I will say, though, that it's nowhere near as good as my tonal work.

And with all due respect, I have listened to music that doesn't speak to me, and do you know what happens? It gives me unnecessary internal anxiety and occassionally stress that I'd rather not have.

And I really, really urge you to at least appreciate where I'm coming from. It doesn't hurt to look into a mirror once in a while.

But Koray is right. You can not expect to have much success in scoring if you maintain that stylistic rigidity.

Who says my style is rigid? I compose in romantic and early modern styles as well, including twelve-tone, serialism, and some atonal and non-tonal. Hint: It's not as good as my tonal work.

You can't see the future any more than I can, so don't say that I'm not going to have much success. Success is 99% failure and depends on how determined you are to succeed.

I am very, very determined to succeed.

... there's no point in elaborating. News flash, essentially no one is going to want classical-style music for film, TV, or games. Hope you're willing to write in a style you know nothing about because they're gonna ask you for it.

Newsflash: You couldn't be more wrong about me. Or should I elaborate more on what I just said?

What can man do against such dismissiveness?

Personally, I ignore the words of those who confuse dismissiveness with personal preference.

I think Koray means Classical as a period, not an overarching designation.

Ah, that's where the confusion lies. I think Mikhail was using it for the Common Practice Period (which he extends to Stravinsky and Prokofiev, which is a pretty liberal definition of the term IYAM - if you recall Agon or the Requiem Canticles).

Prokofiev? I extend it all the way to Copland under the Modern umbrella.

And I differentiate the Common Practice period from the Modern period.

Thank god that people like Goldsmith (and even Williams) didn't have this attitude some odd 50 years before. The intellectual stimulus of such concepts (as serial music or 12 tone) doesn't include that now all music forever will be like it, but more that it sets free creative impulses.

Techniques of atonal and non-tonal composition are now a part of most composers vocabulary and lots of musical works, especially in something as eclectic film music, profit from it.

Like I said earlier, my style is not rigid.

I also compose in romantic and early modern styles as well, including twelve-tone, serialism, and some atonal and non-tonal. In all honesty, it's nowhere near as good as my tonal work.

=====================================================================================================================================================

We're done here. I don't know about others who feel the need to gang up on one person for having an opinion that differs from theirs (next thing I know, I'm gonna be branded an academic or musical elitist, and don't get me started on it), but I'm sticking to the topic of the thread.

So about Soule's article on Hook...

[publicist 4,643]

It's a DISCUSSION forum, so if you post opinions not widely shared, that's what you get. Alternately you can always talk to your mirror reflection - reduces the stress of actually discussing things.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

My definition of musical maturity is that you feel entirely confident in your language and its ability to fulfill whatever your musical goals are. I've not questioned that you seem to have reached that point - but as I said, and I can only speak from my own experience (though observe the common phenomenon of different "periods" for composers' outputs), you might find your "mature" language evolving over time. You may hit a wall.

As Pub said, this is a discussion forum. I doubt any of us are attacking you. But you must expect that there will be differences of opinion and resultant discourse. I wouldn't take any of it personally.

[RedBard 71]

It's a DISCUSSION forum, so if you post opinions not widely shared, that's what you get. Alternately you can always talk to your mirror reflection - reduces the stress of actually discussing things.

There's a fine line between discussion and simply harassing someone for having an opinion different from your own, and you're walking that line.

You're not obligated to descend on my differing opinion like all the others. And leave my mirror reflection out of this; he didn't do anything wrong. ^_^

My definition of musical maturity is that you feel entirely confident in your language and its ability to fulfill whatever your musical goals are. I've not questioned that you seem to have reached that point - but as I said, and I can only speak from my own experience (though observe the common phenomenon of different "periods" for composers' outputs), you might find your "mature" language evolving over time. You may hit a wall.

As Pub said, this is a discussion forum. I doubt any of us are attacking you. But you must expect that there will be differences of opinion and resultant discourse. I wouldn't take any of it personally.

Thank you for saying that. And yes, I am confident in my musical ability. Otherwise, I wouldn't have composed a 12 minute tone poem.

If and when I do hit a wall in the future, then I'm confident that I'll be ready to break through it. I'm always learning new things about composition, and this discussion has helped.

As for any resultant discourse.... well, there is such a thing as Silver and Golden Rules in terms of dialectics and discussion.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Is there? Welcome to the Internet.

[RedBard 71]

Is there? Welcome to the Internet.

Ah, the old "if you can't beat 'em, lower yourself to their level" internet mentality. What else is new?

P.S. You're fifteen years late with that welcome banner.

So about Soule's article on Hook...

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I just think you should lower your expectations and not get your feathers ruffled when people challenge you.

[steb74 53]

There's a fine line between discussion and simply harassing someone for having an opinion different from your own, and you're walking that line.

Harassment? Come on man, you're too old to play childish card games like that, put the dummy back in eh .....

There's another member here who also tries to pull that crap whenever his opinion is challenged by a differing one.

If you want people to respect or at least give your opinions the time of day, you need to also do the same by accepting the perhaps more often than not, somebody somewhere is going to disagree with you ........and that is not harassment.

[Faleel 5,350]

Wow.

A page worth of pissing contests.

[publicist 4,643]

It might have something to do with getting PC'ed for 30 years now that we have become rather precious when our own important opinions are concerned and it has influenced public willingness to let people speak their mind - there's hardly any engaging debate in german tv that even tries to move beyond polite agreements when in reality there's anything but.

I'm not saying that i need flamewars in every thread, just that i sometimes think that not all we talk about here is so terribly important in the grand scheme of things.

[RedBard 71]

I just think you should lower your expectations and not get your feathers ruffled when people challenge you.

I've been doing that years, and the results have always been the same: it ends up looking worse than it wouldn't have been if people just stepped up and learned to respect the opinions of others instead of calling them dismissive or narrow-minded. You're better than that.

Harassment? Come on man, you're too old to play childish card games like that, put the dummy back in eh .....

There's another member here who also tries to pull that crap whenever his opinion is challenged by a differing one.

You're not the one who disparaged me for having different musical tastes, so this doesn't apply to you.

I respect the musical tastes of other people. That doesn't mean I agree with them, let alone call them narrow-minded and dismissive.

It's easy to disagree with other people because they have different musical tastes than others, but it doesn't hurt to look into a mirror once in a while.

What are your musical tastes?

Wow.

A page worth of pissing contests.

Liar. I never said that.

It might have something to do with getting PC'ed for 30 years now that we have become rather precious when our own important opinions are concerned and it has influenced public willingness to let people speak their mind-

I'm not saying that i need flamewars in every thread, just that i sometimes think that not all we talk about here is so terribly important in the grand scheme of things.

Thank you. I hate being PC, but not to the point of being a hate-filled bigot (note: I am not calling anyone here a hate-filled bigot; from what I can see, everyone here is the farthest from it they can be)

Yes, I am narrow-minded and dismissive in terms of musical tastes. What are you gonna do about it? Call me names?

I'm keeping my signature quote, and I stand firmly behind it.

==================================================================================================================================

I love my taste in music, and I love Flight to Neverland. I never get tired of listening to it. I bought the friggin' score of it, I love it so much.

In fact, I am confident enough to say that my analysis of Flight to Neverland is objectively more substantial than Soule's article (if it can even be called that)...

"Chromaticism, counterpoint and the scherzo orchestration textures"? That's all?

[Faleel 5,350]

Wow.

A page worth of pissing contests.

Liar. I never said that.

Of course you didn't! I did!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I'm sure you don't intend to appear dismissive of the tastes any of us possess - but when you back up your own taste by claiming a basis on hours of intense research, what can the rest of us feel but a little "looked down" on?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Look into the mirror, TGP, and tell me what you see.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I see myself holding a pair of thick woolen socks. One can never have too many socks.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

YOU LIE! GIVE ME THE STONE!

[RedBard 71]

Wow.

A page worth of pissing contests.

Liar. I never said that.

Of course not!

I did!

How much of the internet have you seen?

More than you have, liar. Trololololol. Lighten up. It's a beautiful day outside.

I'm sure you don't intend to appear dismissive of the tastes any of us possess - but when you back up your own taste by claiming a basis on hours of intense research, what can the rest of us feel but a little "looked down" on?

It's not my intention to "look down" on anybody. I'm just being honest with where I base my opinions and musical tastes on; my conservatory training and music education.

Why create a social penalty for honesty when none exists?

As for feeling looked down on, I give you these quotes with a little humor attached:

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Maybe or maybe not Eleanor Roosevelt (based on current research by the Quote Investigator)

Do what you feel in your heart to be right — for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be "damned if you do, and damned if you don't." ~ Definitely Eleanor Roosevelt

YOU LIE! GIVE ME THE STONE!

Now, now. Another Christmas has come and gone and TGP didn't get a single pair. People insist on giving him books.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I admit I didn't feel that and am mostly just carrying on for the sake of carrying on at this point. Hey, I had an argumentative start here - just trying to get you acclimated!

[Incanus 5,715]

I'm not saying that i need flamewars in every thread, just that i sometimes think that not all we talk about here is so terribly important in the grand scheme of things.

I hope you do not think that the things we say here are important in the grand scheme of things, with or without arguments and flame wars. Because that would be rather presumptous. Rather.

[RedBard 71]

I admit I didn't feel that and am mostly just carrying on for the sake of carrying on at this point. Hey, I had an argumentative start here - just trying to get you acclimated!

Well, thanks for taking me up to Base Camp on Mount JWFan. Now for the hard part: the actual climb.

[Incanus 5,715]

We must take the Pass of Caradhras!

[RedBard 71]

During a blizzard? With Saruman uttering an enchantment in Quenya from the top of Orthanc in Isengard to prevent us from crossing the mountain by causing massive boulders to plummet down from the mountain and lightning to strike the mountain, sending a mass of snow cascading down and possibly burying us?

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

Okay.

[Incanus 5,715]

I am more afraid of an ambush in the pass by TheGreyPilgrim, The Shark, publicist and BloodBoal...

[Faleel 5,350]

Their arms would have to have grown long to reach us here.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I am more afraid of an ambush in the pass by TheGreyPilgrim, The Shark, publicist and BloodBoal...

Me? Why me? Come on, I'm no traitor, you can trust me...

[RedBard 71]

An enchantment would be much easier, imo.

[Incanus 5,715]

Their arms would have to have grown long to reach us here.

Oh their arms are pretty long, like on a gorilla.

[KK 3,307]

That's right. They're still primitive beasts, behind in evolution, forced to rely on suspensory locomotion over bipedalism.

The question is, whose the silverback of the lot?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Oh all of you shut up!

[RedBard 71]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Fuck, what is this thread? Entering this for the first time.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Fuck, what is this thread? Entering this for the first time.

Just some fellows bonding over their affection for John Williams's music.

[gkgyver 1,645]

That's completely unheard of in these parts!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

This one is just for you Sharky. More Facebook antics from this guy. Commenting on a link to this article...

http://www.policymic.com/articles/90713/9-brilliant-contemporary-composers-who-prove-classical-music-isn-t-dead

...Soule has this to say.

What a bunch of trite garbage. "Contemporary" must be a code word for music the public doesn't want to hear. And yet if we dare question the dimwitted academics behind this morass, we will be hectored with furrowed brows and worse... We might be labeled as "simpletons". To hell with all of this. Where is the respect for human aesthetic in any of this? This crap sounds exactly the same as it did in 1920.

He seems to have become, among other things, quite the anti-"atonal" raver lately. Disappointing, considering how lovely some of his output is.

[publicist 4,643]

He will receive consolation by re-listening to 'Arrival of Tinkerbell' again and again...the pinnacle of musical respect for the human aesthetic.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

This one is just for you Sharky. More Facebook antics from this guy. Commenting on a link to this article...

http://www.policymic.com/articles/90713/9-brilliant-contemporary-composers-who-prove-classical-music-isn-t-dead

...Soule has this to say.

What a bunch of trite garbage. "Contemporary" must be a code word for music the public doesn't want to hear. And yet if we dare question the dimwitted academics behind this morass, we will be hectored with furrowed brows and worse... We might be labeled as "simpletons". To hell with all of this. Where is the respect for human aesthetic in any of this? This crap sounds exactly the same as it did in 1920.

He seems to have become, among other things, quite the anti-"atonal" raver lately.

Not really surprising when you consider how harmonically conservative and reactionary his scores are. I love the insipid buzzwords he throws around i.e. 'human aesthetic.' As opposed to what, 'manatee aesthetic?' And God, do I hate the collective 'we.'

Really getting the urge to punch this fucker in the face. If only he had an equivalent of Uwe Boll's boxing matches.

[KK 3,307]

Talk about a bloated statement...I thought most composers these days were too smart to be saying stupid stuff like that.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Maybe it's "old fart" syndrome. Even the once open-minded, acid-dropping Adams has said some dumb shit recently.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Where?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

That thing you posted recently about the "corrupted" nature of film music. 1997 isn't exactly recent, but there was something else that set me off just last year. I'll look for it.

Found what I was thinking of but it was far less polemical than I remembered. At least he's still clear-headed, even if Soule is descending into madness.

[Uni 306]

This one is just for you Sharky. More Facebook antics from this guy. Commenting on a link to this article...

http://www.policymic.com/articles/90713/9-brilliant-contemporary-composers-who-prove-classical-music-isn-t-dead

...Soule has this to say.

What a bunch of trite garbage. "Contemporary" must be a code word for music the public doesn't want to hear. And yet if we dare question the dimwitted academics behind this morass, we will be hectored with furrowed brows and worse... We might be labeled as "simpletons". To hell with all of this. Where is the respect for human aesthetic in any of this? This crap sounds exactly the same as it did in 1920.

He seems to have become, among other things, quite the anti-"atonal" raver lately. Disappointing, considering how lovely some of his output is.

God, what a pretentious airbag. (He really is a good composer, though. . . .)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Can an airbag actually be pretentious?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

This one is just for you Sharky. More Facebook antics from this guy. Commenting on a link to this article...

http://www.policymic.com/articles/90713/9-brilliant-contemporary-composers-who-prove-classical-music-isn-t-dead

...Soule has this to say.

What a bunch of trite garbage. "Contemporary" must be a code word for music the public doesn't want to hear. And yet if we dare question the dimwitted academics behind this morass, we will be hectored with furrowed brows and worse... We might be labeled as "simpletons". To hell with all of this. Where is the respect for human aesthetic in any of this? This crap sounds exactly the same as it did in 1920.

He seems to have become, among other things, quite the anti-"atonal" raver lately. Disappointing, considering how lovely some of his output is.

God, what a pretentious airbag. (He really is a good composer, though. . . .)

His Elder Scrolls stuff is truly excellent. What little I've heard beyond that, however, seems like retreading of that material, over and over, with far less heart.

[Uni 306]

Can an airbag actually be pretentious?

I think Soule just proved they can. . . .

His Elder Scrolls stuff is truly excellent.

Definitely. Skyrim is as good as most stuff on the film circuit these days.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Even though Morrowind is the most musically colorful/fresh sounding of the three, I think Skyrim is my favorite.

[Wojo 2,453]

Doesn't Skyrim also just recycle a few of the best tracks from Morrowind?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

No. The main theme is preserved, as always, and the tune from Morrowind called Silt Sunrise is given a revamp as The Jerall Mountains, as it was in Oblivion as Through The Valleys.

In the Dragonborn expansion, all of the "explore" cues from Morrowind are brought back since it takes place on Solstheim, but they only play when you're there.

[Wojo 2,453]

Oh.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Can an airbag actually be pretentious?

If it gains sentience, yes.