BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Ah it's that time of the year again apparently. But since John Williams in fact invented music other people have been stealing from him for eternity. The shame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I think he was quoting Stravinsky, who was probably quoting somebody else. Tale as old as time…….. ( see what i did there?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I think he was quoting Stravinsky, who was probably quoting somebody else. Tale as old as time…….. ( see what i did there?)Life is theft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 BLOODBOAL MESSENGER! I AM NOT TRYING TO ROB YOU, I AM TRYING TO STEAL FROM YOU! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE! NOT A LOT GRANTED BUT I AM SURE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE! Smeltington and WilliamsStarShip2282 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,556 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 JW? Plagarist? That's outragous!!!! JW doesn't plagarise, he borrows. I've never read such errant nonsense. Be ashamed; be very ashamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Tchaikovsky: Williams: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 It's a homage! A homage! WilliamsStarShip2282 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 John Williams only tastefully doffs his cap to composer colleagues. Borrowing or theft. Such crude words. Keep them away from this discussion! Away I tell you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 These threads always seem to get sidetracked with debates about the definition of plagiarism or homage, how Williams is not a thief, etc. Perhaps we could have a straight list of cues that have a "soundalike" quality (call them what you will), which would be useful as there are many of them in his work. But before posting, users must raise their right hand and repeat the following: I, the current user, hereby renounce the claim that soundalikes reduce or in any way devalue the quality and/or status of John T. Williams as the most excellent composer of film music in the history of the medium. I apply this tenet to all of Williams' film music of the past, present, and future, and it shall remain in effect in perpetuity or until I proclaim myself to longer be a JWFan, at which time I will replace all of my posts in this thread with the words "the utter nonsense of an ex-JWFan; please ignore" and remain in exile of this thread for the remainder of my account's existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,211 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Tchaikovsky: Williams: There's another bit from Swan Lake that comes up repeatedly in HA2, though I keep mixing up the titles. And let's not forget Schindler's Workforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I made a thread about it last year, if anybody is actually interested: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23371&hl=One that I only recently noticed was from Shostakovich's 10th Symphony and Jurassic Park. 7:03 sounds a lot like a some of the action music from JP (I think it's in T Rex and Finale) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgwlzo4oUsU From 3:11 onwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I'm shocked at the level of disrespect being shown here. JOHN is the REASON to be here on JWFAN. If you can't accept that he is a musical genius whose imagination exists in complete isolation from outside influence, then you are not a true fan and don't belong here. Seriously disgusting. And isn't it telling that all of these "plagiarisms" are minor incidents of underscore? Who cares about any of that anyway? Where John's heart really lies is in his brilliant populist fanfares and those are all GENIUS with not ONE NOTE misplaced and not a single second that doesn't merit extreme interest. In fact I just wish he'd give up on all the slow, boring stuff and just write big brassy tunes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I made a thread about it last year, if anybody is actually interested: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23371&hl=One that I only recently noticed was from Shostakovich's 10th Symphony and Jurassic Park. 7:03 sounds a lot like a some of the action music from JP (I think it's in T Rex and Finale) Ah, the DSCH motif. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,211 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Oh, and this of course: Ah, the DSCH motif. Dmitri Shostakovich, the original carnivore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,556 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 O.k., so he did lift the tertiary theme for "Superman" straight from Walton's "Crown Imerial", and "The Throne Room" from to "March To The Museum", and a piece from "Nixon", from "Heartbeeps", but so whaaaaaaaat? Plagarise, shmagarise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 O.k., so he did lift the tertiary theme for "Superman" straight from Walton's "Crown Imerial", and "The Throne Room" from to "March To The Museum", and a piece from "Nixon", from "Heartbeeps", but so whaaaaaaaat? Plagarise, shmagarise.He didn't plagiarize, he made them better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 It's not good to joke about it because classical elitists are dead serious about it when they talk about Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 So? Their loss. They're an endangered species anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Like Frank Ticheli? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Well, I fail to hear the plagiarism in the above examples, but then again I'm not musically trained. All I know is what sounds good to my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Well they're pretty loose examples. With the exception of the quotes/hommages in STAR WARS, you'd have a hard time proving any of these in court. Dixon Hill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 The Tchaikovsky one Ludwig posted is pretty obvious and convinced me that Williams is a complete fraud.I thought that was done intentionally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Vaguely like Lando's Palace and the tertiary theme from Superman. Pedal point + diatonic planing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Yeah a lot of it is the orchestration though. Even more vague in the organ arrangement, which I prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 We all know that JW is an unabashed plagiarist. He loves to steal other composers' works. He even takes pride out of it!I'll forever remember what he told me when I met him: "You know, Jake, the best way to become famous is to steal famous people's ideas." A sound advice by one of the most successful plagiarists in the world.So, I thought it could be a good idea to list his most plagiaristic cues, in order to help the composers on this forum become famous.So, come on, lads, help your fellow forum members! Tell us what are his most plagiaristic cues!Ah, yes. Another accusation of plagiarism committed by John Williams in his music. How do you he wasn't being sarcastic or sardonic when he said that to you?And you know what? When you're working in a medium like classical music, borrowing from other composers isn't an unheard-of practice.Hans Zimmer does it all the time. He even admitted to sampling a Gustav Holst piece on his score for Gladiator. If you're gonna hate on Williams for "theft", then you better show equal hate for the Zimmer.I'm not going to argue the semantics of borrowing vs. stealing (regardless of whether or not Williams committed such things) because of three simple factors:1) Any music in the public domain is fair game for the one seeking inspiration.This makes the argument for plagiarism and theft meaningless to argue. Tchaikovsky and Dvorak aren't making money off their work anymore, so what's the problem?2) You can't copyright an isolated set of notes (i.e. motif, theme, and especially a cue). If a composer came up with it before you, you can be creative enough to alter how those sets of notes are played. If not, then you're not cut out for film composing.3) Every artist learns through imitation, and Williams is no exception.Until you can achieve the level of compositional experience and reputation that Williams has WITHOUT copying anybody before you, don't throw down that accusation.And as an added bonus:4) Every composer has their musical influences, including yourself.It doesn't hurt to look in the mirror once in a while, especially when throwing down accusations. What was the last feature-length film you wrote the score for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Oh dear... it's worse than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Mikhail, BloodBoal's only joking. He's our resident wind-up artist. No need to give him a pep talk about plagiarism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Mikhail, BloodBoal's only joking. He's our resident wind-up artist. No need to give him a pep talk about plagiarism.This is the biggest reason why we need a sarcasm font. In the meantime, I do understand Poe's Law. Who else here understands it besides me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Familiarity with each other's tendencies helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Familiarity with each other's tendencies helps.I don't have that luxury since I'm relatively new here.But every little bit of information helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 But every little bit of information helps.Fair enough.Hlao-roo/Alan: JWfan's master of sarcasm and satire, though he can often be sincere.BloodBoal/Alvar: cut from a similar cloth, but younger and more insolent.Drax: somewhere between these two, but read his posts with Ozzie accent.TheGreyPilgrim and myself: we can piss about at times, but usually we're fairly earnest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 But every little bit of information helps.Fair enough.Hlao-roo/Alan: JWfan's master of sarcasm and satire, though he can often be sincere.BloodBoal/Alvar: cut from a similar cloth, but younger and more insolent.Drax: somewhere between these two, but read his posts with Ozzie accent.TheGreyPilgrim and myself: we can piss about at times, but usually we're fairly earnest.Oh they are quite a merry gathering! Once you get to know them of course.You think I'm insolent? Fuck you!Calm down Messenger! You are among friends here. And yes you tend to be a bit insolent but it is part of your charm, like the hot headedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,556 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 It's not good to joke about it because classical elitists are dead serious about it when they talk about WilliamsIn what way? Good or bad? Bad, I assume... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alejandro 26 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Wasn't the airport scene in Home Alone tracked with Nutcracker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,378 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Williams' piece is an intentional and deliberate homage to the nutcracker piece. Whether or not the film was first temp-tracked with the actual nutcracker cue or not, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I gather that there's still some apprehension that Williams "plagiarized" Tchaikovsky for Home Alone. I think we're on solid ground in assuming that the desire for the "soundalike" (call it what you will) came from higher up since with a composer of Williams' calibre and work ethic (striving to find just the right theme and so forth), it's not in his musical DNA to do so.He has a strong sense of personal style, so anytime these situations come up, I would be liable to point to the filmmakers as the real source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,378 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Personally, I find it hilarious anyone would accuse Williams of plagiarizing that piece - it was clearly MEANT to evoke the original piece, on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 What I don't get is why they didn't just use the original piece. It's not like it's copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,378 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Well, it's more fun this way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 The probably wanted to sync it to the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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