Smeltington 1,440 Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 On 3/13/2020 at 7:04 PM, Chen G. said: which is awful. Being somebody's son appearantly gives you, morally, a get-out-jail-free-card; and for patricide, no less! Just because a character is conflicted, has a tortorous past, shares a connection to good characters or posseses sympathetic qualities, doesn't make the bad things he does any less villanous. If anything, that Kylo Ren does what he does in spite of his moral compass telling him otherwise makes him all the more monsterous. Again, it'd be like ending Gladiator with a redemption for Commodus. Few things are more satisfying that watch a villain like Kylo or Commodus beaten to a pulp, and we're robbed of that with Kylo and his stupid, cheap and insidious redemption arc. Also, the killing of Snoke wasn't an act of moral conflict: it was a cut-and-dry coup. Its telling that during the ensuing fight, Rey helps Kylo, but he lets Rey fend for herself: helping her out was never his objective. He just needed her there. Not that the things I listed justify Kylo's evil deeds, just that they were clear signs to the audience that he would "turn good" eventually. And I do appreciate that, considering the filmmakers wanted to repeat the same Vader arc all over again, at least they did a good job planting seeds to foreshadow that. Meanwhile, in their haste to remake the OT, there were some other obvious improvements they could have made, but didn't. Like having Rey get a more proper Jedi training than Luke had, or toning down the reveals of characters' parentage, which were already played out by the end of the OT. Even Lucas had the sense to lean on that less in the prequels. I liked the TROS movie, despite its obvious flaws, and thought it was fun, well-acted, and very watchable. And I loved hearing Williams' score in the film, even in spite of the ridiculous way it was treated. So in response to the OP, I hope the shitty reception the movie received doesn't hurt the chances of a score expansion, LTP concert, etc. It's wonderful music regardless of the film it's attached to. At the very least, I look forward to hearing something from it at the Keith Lockhart Star Wars concert in Boston this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, Smeltington said: Not that the things I listed justify Kylo's evil deeds, just that they were clear signs to the audience that he would "turn good" eventually. Oh, I agree, which is why I always feared this eventuality, because it was (and is) detestable. When Vader was redeemed in 1983, the most villanous act audiences saw him do - by his own hand - was kill old Ben. That, and the fact that he was only redeemed in his penultimate scene, made it palatable. The same is not true of Kylo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 1 hour ago, mrbellamy said: I think it's about on par with the prequels in that way. Some of it is better than what George was doing, some of it really seems worse. It's weird to say but I think Eps I-III may be vaguely more "normal" i.e. linear and watchable as far as their story nuts and bolts go, but JJ's direction and his actors are obviously a little more consistently engaged. Kinda splits the difference....I will say Revenge of the Sith beats it as a trilogy finale due to more prolonged cathartic moments in the film and especially score. ...tbh Phantom Menace may win on points as well, nothing in Rise really strikes me as memorably crafty like the podrace sound design or the editing/choreography/scoring of Maul vs Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon. Great observations. I think the prequels succeeded spectacularly in so many ways outside of the writing, directing, and acting. Whereas I was impressed by the sequels on exactly those areas where the prequels were weak. The design and production of the prequels were especially imaginative, whereas the sequels were content to try and ape the OT films for their sound and visuals. Just now, Chen G. said: Oh, I agree, which is why I always feared this eventuality, because it was (and is) detestable. When Vader was redeemed in 1983, the most villanous act audiences saw him do - by his own hand - was kill old Ben. That, and the fact that he was only redeemed in his penultimate scene, made it palatable. The same is not true of Kylo. In either case though, I would argue that the audience is capable of understanding that, even though we're happy to see the villain have a change of heart, we don't instantly excuse their past crimes. Which is why the unwritten rules of storytelling demand that the villain still has to die, and not live happily ever after. Their death and their denial of a real atonement is their karmic punishment. It's funny to me that Rey is the only living character at the end who saw everything that happened with Kylo, and there's no sign of whether she shared that info with anyone else. "So guys, you're never gonna believe this, but Kylo helped me! And then... we made out!!! But right then, he died. Crazy huh?" What are her friends gonna say to that? "Uhhh what??" Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_deleted_ 203 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Star Wars used to be a one-sided conversation on history, religion, politics, war and human relationships, made as a series of silent films for kids. Now it's being sold to young girls as original stories that provide an empowering message, with the high priest claiming that it has always been a religion. When you look at the Ewoks in ROTJ, you'd get a sense that you're invited to understand an alien culture of teddy bears. Kids! Let's be anthropologists for 15 minutes! Adults! Let's revisit the joys of childhood! Do the Sequels explore cultures? Do they ask questions about people? When Padme goes to Mustafar in ROTS, you're witnessing the consequences of ineffective communication between different powers, and how that breaks a family. Padme (love/giver of love) dies as other characters plunge into the Fascism vs Humans conflict. TROS touches upon this. But are we really going to believe that Lucasfilm had all this planned, that Rey was a Palpatine, and it's not another metatextual response to fan outrage? What have we been invited to see in TROS? Seriously, what have we gained as a civilization after watching TROS? Rey's afraid of who she is? Finn likes to yell? Kelly Marie Tran deserves to have her screentime cut? If I can travel back to 2015, I'll do anything to tell people to save their brains and stay away from this mess. Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 hour ago, A Ghost From Highwood said: But are we really going to believe that Lucasfilm had all this planned I hope nobody on earth believes that! _deleted_ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_deleted_ 203 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Smeltington said: I hope nobody on earth believes that! It's sad to see people submit themselves to manipulation. There's a video of fans cheering for KMT and JJ. That was April 2019. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Well I enjoy the movies despite the lack of planning. But I think it's obvious to everyone at this point that they were making it up as they went along. crlbrg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,287 Posted March 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2020 Yeah I went back and forth on it through the years but now it seems completely clear that any thoughts they might have had about the ending were entirely vague. Like I think they were probably always gonna redeem and then kill Kylo Ren but they didn’t have a clue where any of that was actually going. Still think Force Awakens and Last Jedi are above average blockbusters. I’ll go back to those just as their own thing, I think they make interesting and entertaining counterparts as non-Lucas takes on Star Wars. Rise of Skywalker didn’t add much, might hatewatch it here and there like the prequels. The original three obviously hang together well and the first two are exceptional individually. But really have no interest in marathoning the “Skywalker Saga.” kelliwisethebrave, Remco, Pieter Boelen and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smeltington 1,440 Posted March 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2020 I think you should still marathon it, and just think of it as the "John Williams Saga" if nothing else, to me these 9 movies will always be special just for Williams' incredible effort. Joni Wiljami, crlbrg, _deleted_ and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Yes John Williams never disappointed, just the films did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_deleted_ 203 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Rey's Theme really is the best thing from the ST! Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 31 minutes ago, Smeltington said: I think you should still marathon it, and just think of it as the "John Williams Saga" if nothing else, to me these 9 movies will always be special just for Williams' incredible effort. Or, you know, just listen to the scores. If Disney would give them to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,287 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Oh yeah I will definitely do a big ol listen to all 9 scores one day/week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Man that'll take forever. But would be one hell of a ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellosh 3,419 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 gonna rent this at the end of the month to finally see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted March 18, 2020 Author Share Posted March 18, 2020 20 hours ago, mrbellamy said: But really have no interest in marathoning the “Skywalker Saga.” Definitely not. My “greater Star Wars” rewatch is generally something like this: Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back Raiders of the Lost Ark E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial Return of the Jedi Willow Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade plus the one nostalgia trip which works, Star Wars: The Force Awakens Depending on if kids are involved in the rewatch, I definitely consider including the Ewoks movies and the Star Wars episode of The Muppet Show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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