Magnus 0 Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I really do like the original trilogy Yoda, but I was also very impressed by the AOTC Yoda. I really think ILM did a good job. The Episode 1 Yoda... it's a little bit too off in the looks somehow :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrScratch 294 Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I think everyone was on autopilot in RotJ except for Ian McDiarmid, because he was the new guy. I blame Marquand for that.Thats generally true, but not everyone. I think Hamill progressed from ANH to ROTJ, he got better with every movie. Perhaps because the story became more focused on his character with each film.Harrison Ford was getting bored (maybe Lucas should have given his character more to do), Fisher was hungover, even James Earl Jones seems a little flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPFAN 1 Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Yoda as a puppet is soo believable and he seems like a real person. BUt the cg Yoda was like the hulk you realy didn't have any emotional attatchment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I say and still say again, the best acting of the entire trilogy was Yoda in The Empire Strikes Back. The range of emotions in the face by Frank Oz and his team, it's incredible. His reaction inside his hut when he speaks to Obi-Wan "I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience." is marvellous.Same for when he uses the Force to bring Luke's X-Wing out of the water, Well, Williams' score doesn't hurt there either!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 The first act of TESB is a little sappy on dialogue, but it really picks up once the second act starts up. Then it never really lets up, I don't think. Especially the YODA scenes. The blend of acting and music entirely makes the whole movie solid. Well...Vader's scenes are pretty sweet, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Yoda is certainly acted well in the original trilogy. I don't find much wrong with any actors acting in ROTJ at all though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I don't find much wrong with any actors acting in ROTJ at all though.Not even Harrison Ford's phoned-in, somnolent performance? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Nah, his character will still as fun and as humorous as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector J. Guzman 1 Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 The best actor in ROTJ was Jabba the Hutt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 So much votes for something as dead as a CGI Yoda!!! This Episode II Yoda is a farce. He's unquotable and has lost all charm. Even Frank Oz had a bad voiceday. Ditching the puppet and replacing it with CGI is where Episode II failed the most. You wanna know why???YODA IS THE PUPPET. He started as a puppet and was loved by millions because it was done so well by a very talented artist. He made Yoda alive, cute, clever, wise, strong, admirable, wonderful and above all, dignifying. Rest asure that if you replace the favorite cuddly bear from a young kid with a new one, he will know (and smell) this instantly and it's bye bye love. I curse George Lucas for destroying the only thing left that was good in the Prequels. Don't tell me it was you who applauded when Yoda turned Rabbit and fought Doku. Bah! I'll bet that if Lucas replaces Ford in Indy 4 with CGI you'll all shake his hand and congratulate him whilst crying of joy. Who are you people!----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector J. Guzman 1 Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 "Around the survivor, a perimeter create" My favorite part I always laugh at that part, heh heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Yeah, Lucas was really stretching Yoda's "backwards speak" to it's breaking point with that line.Stefancos- who found CGI Yoda acceptable, but nowere near as realistic as the puppet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Yeah, Lucas was really stretching Yoda's "backwards speak" to it's breaking point with that line.He went well beyond the breaking point. It sounds plain stupid. Where are the good writers?----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Well, the original puppet didn't look that real, the CGI doesn't look perfectly real, I suppose the original puppet is acted better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Well, the original puppet didn't look that real, the CGI doesn't look perfectly real, I suppose the original puppet is acted better.Morn, the CGI is copying the puppet as close as it gets. That's the whole point!!! Because we're used to the puppet! ----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 The CGI Yoda looked to shiny most of the times, and it's still hard to make a CGI figure blend in with the real actors and the real sets, even the brilliant CGI Gollum was not 100% perfect at this.The Yoda puppet was indeed a puppet, but it blended seamlessly with the rest of the elements, and they really managed to make me believe he was a real character.Stefancos- who likes it when old topics are brought back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Nah, it looked so pale and plastic.....Because we're used to the puppet! Don't you ever want to try new things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 True. Back in its days I thought that Yoda was merely a puppet when he was first introduced. It took minutes or perhaps seconds to change those thoughts.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Pale and plastic? The new one looks like light and pixels and acts dead and doesn't have anything interesting to say. What's more, don't get used to him because Georgie is gonna replace him as soon as the new computers get in. But I'm sure you're all for that. In the next special edition of Eppy II Anakin will be curly blonde with CGI beard to keep him warmer in those cold Tatooine nights. Time for something new.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Exactly my point, CGI Yoda looks no worse but isn't acted as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 But that's a different point. Yoda had far more memorable lines in ESB than in AOTC, but in terms of appearance, I think Yoda was a triumph of animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Hmmmm, Morn, you didn't get my soft sarcastic (almost cynical) tone in my previous reply. Don't tell me you were more enchanted by that... thing...you know...the pixels, then you were with the Empire Swamp Original Yoda. Final Fantasy is state of the art computer animation but still, in the end, everything feels dead. THAT'S my point! At least the puppet Yoda is there, with the actors. And it made them play better. That alone is worth more. If you don't feel or hear the differences, that stood for the magic between puppet or CGI Yoda, then this discussion is useless.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 The CGI Yoda looked to shiny most of the times, and it's still hard to make a CGI figure blend in with the real actors and the real sets, even the brilliant CGI Gollum was not 100% perfect at this.Please low down that percentage a little! LOL Too shiny?!? Did you ever saw the sun in Dagobah?Nobody speaks about the difference between ESB yoda and ROJ yoda. The puppets are very different. In my opinion, ESB's does not look real many times. ROJ's though appeared only a little, his movements looked real, and his death is very well done.Nobody likes TPM's because it looks different, but definately is acted better than the other two because it was a better muppet in fact it was not a true muppet but an animatronic thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Nobody likes TPM's because it looks different, but definately is acted better than the other two because it was a better muppet in fact it was not a true muppet but an animatronic thing.I like the TMP yoda very much, Skywalker! This puppet, in fact, was one of the best things about the movie. After the first viewing I remember saying to someone that Yoda, this primitive puppet, was more impressive and did more to me then all the other FX combined. ----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Nobody likes TPM's because it looks different, but definately is acted better than the other two because it was a better muppet in fact it was not a true muppet but an animatronic thing.Luke, the term "Muppet" is a registered trademark of The Henson Corporation. I just got a cease and desist letter from them saying they had absolutely nothing to do with the "horrible Yoda puppet seen in George Lucas' The Phantom Menace".Remember, just because it has Frank Oz's hand up its butt does not automatically make it a "Muppet".Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Nobody likes TPM's because it looks different, but definately is acted better than the other two because it was a better muppet in fact it was not a true muppet but an animatronic thing.Luke, the term "Muppet" is a registered trademark of The Henson Corporation. I just got a cease and desist letter from them saying they had absolutely nothing to do with the "horrible Yoda puppet seen in George Lucas' The Phantom Menace".Remember, just because it has Frank Oz's hand up its butt does not automatically make it a "Muppet".NeilLOL at first sight i didnt understood what you meant, and i thought well whats the correct term then. Then i read it carefully.Big mistake i made :oops: PS: Definately Yoda wouldn't like to have Frank Oz's hand in his butt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Luke, the term "Muppet" is a registered trademark of The Henson Corporation. I just got a cease and desist letter from them saying they had absolutely nothing to do with the "horrible Yoda puppet seen in George Lucas' The Phantom Menace ". He should be mad at him for completely ruling out the art of puppets in AOTC.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 The scene Yoda looked the best and most convinging in all the films is...AotC,the Yoda and the Youngling scene.He looked,talked and moved perfect therek.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 The scene Yoda looked the best and most convinging in all the films is...AotC,the Yoda and the Youngling scene. He looked,talked and moved perfect therek.M.How can you tell? I mean, what is your reference on how Yoda should look, talk and move? Is that based on your imaginary Yoda or the one first presented in Empire?Yoda is or was originally a puppet and they changed it. With that dramatic change they inevitably changed the character. To me that would be the same as replacing Dart Vader or Luke or Ben or Han into a CGI. Another thing that has really changed with the Prequels is spaceships. Everyone (and I mean everyone) was amazed with the huge spaceships passing by (you could almost touch them) or the battles between smaller ships. You could really feel it if one crashed or exploded against a surface.Why? They were real build models. I rather have ten models flying around then thousands of CGI animated ones. The numbers should tell you something about how easy it apparently is to create a thousand or many more spaceships. Same goes for those battledroids. I really could care less. Sure, you can achieve a lot more situations, possibilities and movement with CGI (see rabbit Yoda) but for now it still doesn't feel like I could physically touch any of them.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Give me a Prequel-Special edition CGI spaceship over any model any time. Please one thing is bashing about making a CGI character, that it may not be easiy to look real in his movements and so. but come on making a spaceship is way easier and the technology is well stablished. Now they are perfect. For me star wars was a great achievment in Special effects, but now those models quality cannot be compared with the CGI models.Its like saying that the lightsabers were better in the old trilogy.You can still like the models, but you have to admit their movement were very limited, and the explosions were very firecraker-looking. The only movie that saves itself if ROJ, the pinnacle of optical SFX.And about feeling it when they crashed, with the better quality speakers we have now in cinemas you can feel anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 You don't see it, Luke? How about that ship from Amidala? That looks real to you? BTW, I don't need a sound system to help me feel things are real or not.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 You don't see it, Luke? How about that ship from Amidala? That looks real to you? BTW, I don't need a sound system to help me feel things are real or not.----------------Alex CremersIf you had in mind amidala's ships when you made the commentary , just not generalise to all the ships.And yes it looks real for me. Haven't our new cars roud shapes? or can we make chrome-looking polishing? Its a craft of art. And as many ships from the prequels, it surely was first a model then rendered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I don't think you NEED a CGI Yoda to make the character look real, except of course for those fight scenes, which would have been impossible to do with a puppet. But I always felt that because there's no real-life reference for a three foot green guy with pointy ears and claw-like feet, it doesn't really have to look like a living, breathing creature. Sure, it has to has small nuances to make you forget your watching a puppet, but Frank Oz is one fine puppeteer and knows how to do those things. The way the puppet moves is just a part of the character. That just becomes your reference for how a creature like that moves.- Marc Jewish Town (Krakow Ghetto - Winter '41) from Schindler's List Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Several ships in the prequels were made using models and CGI.There are more models in the prequels than some of you seem to realise.Romão, who agrees with Luke about CGI ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 [How can you tell? I mean, what is your reference on how Yoda should look, talk and move? Is that based on your imaginary Yoda or the one first presented in Empire?Because he looked like Empire in appearance,which is my referance as to what his face should look like,and looked more realistic than in Empire as far as my "imaginary Yoda" is concerned.He looks more alive in that scene,especially the eyes.I like how the scene is shot and lit too.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 I always have the feeling that if I would poke hime with a stick, I would poke right through him. CGI doesn't look dense enough. Truth is, CGI is not enough part with the rest of the set and characters yet. It's the lighting on the set that always has to be emulated and can never be the same. It's always artificial. This is what I always see. Maybe in 10 years CGI intermingles better then it does now. Who knows.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 that's sort of what I said,he looks great in the Youngling and Starmap scene,because the way the scene is shot and lit.and then he looks shitty in the "outdoors" scenes like when he's on the troop transport.the animators should fix anything wrong by Ep3.Even back in 1980 I wished they could have pulled off Yoda better(especially his first few minutes of screentime,when he looks and sounds like he came straight from The Muppet Show)He turned out to be a great character ,so that made it easier to stomach the puppet.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,346 Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 I always have the feeling that if I would poke hime with a stick, I would poke right through him. CGI doesn't look dense enough. Truth is, CGI is not enough part with the rest of the set and characters yet. It's the lighting on the set that always has to be emulated and can never be the same. It's always artificial. This is what I always see. Maybe in 10 years CGI intermingles better then it does now. Who knows.----------------Alex CremersAnd after seeing a couple of more scenes from The Hulk last night it's getting furthermore obvious how CGI still has a long way to go and harder to believe how people can actually can enjoy this.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 I have to agree with Alex here. CGI usually never convinces me. I can enjoy it, but never take seriously (exception being Gollum and the Jurassic Park dinos), I never stop thinking: "that's CGI, let's see where I can notice it".I am a flaming defender of animatronics, puppetry et al. Because when you shoot something with a camera, it is there, it's real, it's as alive as it'll ever get, it's an image formed into celluloid. CGI is something added to the image in the celluloid. As of now, it isn't part of the image. So, to me, puppet Yoda is the way to go - may it be Empire, ROTJ or TPM, I don't care, as long it was there, in the set, sharing the same space as the actors. How can you shoot a Star Wars film without Yoda?But this not a black-and-white issue. There is much credit due. Many people don't acknowledge CGI Yoda as the ground-breaking achievment it is. No, many people hate it because it is CGI and can only point out its flaws. Well, there are many things right in the CGI Yoda, as well as there are many things right with a lot of CGI shots. Sure, they are not perfect. So what? The thing about SFX is not to see if you can spot how they were made, or if they are FX or not. It is the actually wanting to believe what you are seeing is real. Human mind can do wonders turning a blind eye over techincal flaws. Many people did not want to believe CGI Yoda was real, just because it wasn't their original puppet Yoda.Whether it's their or Lucas' fault, I won't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 How can you shoot a Star Wars film without Yoda?They did a pretty good job shooting one without him somewere back in 76 and 77.Stefancos- getting ahead of Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 I always have the feeling that if I would poke hime with a stick, I would poke right through him. CGI doesn't look dense enough. Truth is, CGI is not enough part with the rest of the set and characters yet. It's the lighting on the set that always has to be emulated and can never be the same. It's always artificial. This is what I always see. Maybe in 10 years CGI intermingles better then it does now. Who knows.----------------Alex CremersAnd after seeing a couple of more scenes from The Hulk last night it's getting furthermore obvious how CGI still has a long way to go and harder to believe how people can actually can enjoy this.----------------Alex CremersIf you say that seeing the HUlk, i cannot ever think what do you say about lesser works.I think the matter is that back in 1993, ILMs Work was groundbreaking and very new. People was not accustomed to that. Now, people is accustomed to CGI and it can distiguish it better, specially the new generations.Luke, who hates CGI in cartoon movies. Now that's one thing they should notuse in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Well,there starting to get animals pretty well in CGI.I hate when they use CGI in those Discovery nature programs,I have to ask myself if they made up shots or animals a lot of the time.Well it's not perfect,yet.For kids or people that don't know any better,I wonder how'll thell be able to tell reality from fiction.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 I prefer the puppet (muppet) Yoda in The Empire Strikes Back. He's the original, he's classic, and he gives one of the finest performances, if not the best, of that film. He's so full of nuance, every gesture he makes is so full of sadness and sincerity, I personally think he's really cute in that film. He's also quite the same in Return of the Jedi, except that because he's dying, they make him look a bit creepy at times, like when his teeth are showing, his eyes bulge, and his face seems to stretch. But every move, every line uttered in both films, utter genius. Everything Yoda said in Empire and Jedi is highly quotable; Phantom gets only two, the thing about "only two there are" and "fear leads to [stuff]; nothing quotable in AOTC, just random babbling about fear and darkness and the dark side taking everyone for a loop. Yawn.I can't get past the way Yoda looks in the prequels, about how they had to "subtley" make him look younger. For only being fifty years younger, they sure made him look a lot different. Maybe at one or two hundred years ago, but not just fifty. At that rate, when Yoda's kind are born, they're probably so bright green they hurt to look at, and have smooth skin at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Well,there starting to get animals pretty well in CGI.I hate when they use CGI in those Discovery nature programs,I have to ask myself if they made up shots or animals a lot of the time.Well it's not perfect,yet.For kids or people that don't know any better,I wonder how'll thell be able to tell reality from fiction.K.M.I wonder if someday the JP team will make doccumentaries.Those would be perfect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Yes, there's more models and miniature work in Episode 1 and 2 then any SW movies. In fact, there's more models in Episode 1 then ALL original SW movies _combined_ !!!If people only knew how much models were used. Heck for E2, a vast, vast large portion of Coruscant (during the chase) was a model. Some stuff people say "pffffff, CGI!" like the ship landing on the Naboo plaza, well the entire city is a big giant model. Yes, CGI was added to the models (stuff like smoke, animation, etc...) but the minature department at ILM is still kicking some large arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Hey the naboo plaza is filmed on location in Seville, Spain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 I meant the opening wide shot with the landing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 The only ships in AotC I find unconvincing are the pre-stardestroyers taking off from Coruscant at the end.CGI Sort of still suck when it comes to the huge ships in that scale.You dont get the gigantic scale feeling of the OT stardestroyers.If those were models then they got lazy making enough windows and such.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 The only ships in AotC I find unconvincing are the pre-stardestroyers taking off from Coruscant at the end.CGI Sort of still suck when it comes to the huge ships in that scale.You dont get the gigantic scale feeling of the OT stardestroyers.If those were models then they got lazy making enough windows and such.K.M.They are clone troops transports. They only need windows in the bridge, dont they? Plus we may not see window ligths because there is light in the planet...Of course you do not get the gigantic scale feeling. I dunno know their real size but dont expect it to be more than 200-300 meter. An ISD measured 1'5 Km. Anyway, you can get the gigantic feeling with the Federation ships... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I loved the first shots of the Federation Battleships in TPM. They are one my favorite starships in the SW saga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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