The Star Trek Disenchantment Thread

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

In order to bring balance to the forum. 

[Edmilson 7,475]

There was an attempt at a ST disenchantment thread a few years ago:

 

But it didn't take off, at least not on the level of the SW thread. I guess people enjoy bashing Star Wars more than Trek. Or, more likely, not many people are as aware of current Trek than as current Star Wars.

[Tallguy 3,402]

I haven't been this enchanted with Star Trek since the 80's.

[Mr. Hooper 1,808]

You can count William Shatner among the disenchanted, for Paramount's attempts to hide Captain Kirk in a closet—cuz he's, um, "problematic".

 

In our attempts to form a perfect society, and raise boys right, we surely can't promote an assertive, womanizing, man's man like ol' James Tiberius Kirk.

 

[JTN 2,051]

[Nick1Ø66 4,723]

4 hours ago, Tallguy said:

I haven't been this enchanted with Star Trek since the 80's.

 

DS9 ran in the 90's, and IMO is the best of the Berman-era Trek, especially the last 4 seasons.

 

And while Voyager & Enterprise aren't anywhere near DS9 or TNG in terms of quality, I've reevaluated both in recent years and have come to appreciate them more, especially in comparison to NuTrek.

[Tallguy 3,402]

4 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

You can count William Shatner among the disenchanted, for Paramount's attempts to hide Captain Kirk in a closet—cuz he's, um, "problematic".

 

He's so problematic that they have re-cast the character twice and are making new episodes with the character to this day. (And they have not gender or race swapped the character.)

 

The reason he wasn't in the latest marketing go round is that it becomes a very crowded roster and they're concentrating on the current shows (which includes Picard) rather than TOS. I still disagree, but I see why they would promote Anson Mount and Patrick Stewart over Shatner. Plus I'm sure there is a degree of box-ticking taking place and "white guy in a yellow shirt" had been taken by a current production.

 

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

DS9 ran in the 90's, and IMO is the best of the Berman-era Trek, especially the last 4 seasons.

 

And while Voyager & Enterprise aren't anywhere near DS9 or TNG in terms of quality, I've reevaluated both in recent years and have come to appreciate them more, especially in comparison to NuTrek.

 

I love DS9. But I was no where near as "enchanted" with Star Trek as when TOS was on TV every day and there was a new Kirk movie coming out every few years.

[enderdrag64 624]

I've only seen a few eps of TOS, TNG, and Enterprise along with most of the movies.

 

But out of all those my favorite Star Trek is The Orville

[Edmilson 7,475]

On 04/02/2024 at 1:49 PM, Mr. Hooper said:

You can count William Shatner among the disenchanted, for Paramount's attempts to hide Captain Kirk in a closet—cuz he's, um, "problematic".

 

In our attempts to form a perfect society, and raise boys right, we surely can't promote an assertive, womanizing, man's man like ol' James Tiberius Kirk.

 

 

19 hours ago, Tallguy said:

He's so problematic that they have re-cast the character twice and are making new episodes with the character to this day. (And they have not gender or race swapped the character.)

 

Former JWFan Drax, the author of our slogan "Star Trek is better than everything", said something similar five years ago:

 

As for myself, I make @mstrox's words my own:

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,723]

11 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

You can count William Shatner among the disenchanted, for Paramount's attempts to hide Captain Kirk in a closet—cuz he's, um, "problematic".

 

Shatner's Twitter feed is hilarious. He's as unwoke, dismissive, cranky and cantankerous as you'd expect him to be.

 

I don't think he writes any of it himself mind you, he clearly has someone younger and more knowledgeable about Star Trek and pop culture than Shatner will ever be run his channel, but It's nonetheless glorious. 

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,808]

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

The reason he wasn't in the latest marketing go round is that it becomes a very crowded roster and they're concentrating on the current shows (which includes Picard) rather than TOS.

 

I'm seeing all the captains here except a certain swaggering carnivore. Hmm...

 

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Plus I'm sure there is a degree of box-ticking taking place and "white guy in a yellow shirt" had been taken by a current production.

In case this was said unironically, I've got a solution:

 

[Badzeee 110]

I just watched Star Trek: Generations again (in glorious 4K). Man… that ending. 

 

I love Kirk and the character Shatner created in the 60s and the movies in the 80s and 90s. I think he’s at his best in the movies when he’s being directed by Meyer or Nimoy. I’m not sure those Kirk high points have ever been topped. 

 

Is this a case of being able to separate the art from the artist? ‘Cause the Shat is a cause unto himself. He seems to be the captain - or actor of a captain - against which all others are defined. You can recast Kirk, but you can never blot out the legacy of Shatner. 

[Tallguy 3,402]

12 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

In case this was said unironically, I've got a solution:

 

I'm not sure if the pic means "Get out" or if it was directed at me. If the former then I hope not the latter. (I know EVERYONE says I'm paranoid the moment I turn my back. )

 

4 hours ago, Badzeee said:

You can recast Kirk, but you can never blot out the legacy of Shatner. 

 

No. In some ways it's easier to separate Spock from Nimoy. Both of the actors who have stepped into the role of Kirk have said they debate how much Shatner to put into their performance. And I think there is a LOT to Shatner's Kirk that isn't the stereotypical (in the public consciousness anyway) Shatner turned up to 11. Quiet Shatner is the Amazing Shatner.

 

I would rather see more interesting adventures with Pike and his crew than to see a remake of TOS. But in the second season of SNW I think Wesley knocked it out of the park without a shade of Shatner in his performance yet somehow coming across as All Kirk.

 

Sorry, that's more of me being enchanted with Star Trek. Maybe I'm in the wrong thread.

[Mr. Hooper 1,808]

40 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I'm not sure if the pic means "Get out" or if it was directed at me. If the former then I hope not the latter. (I know EVERYONE says I'm paranoid the moment I turn my back. )

Oh, I didn't notice his thumb sticking out in a "get out" gesture—I thought it was a fist, defiantly raised against the Soy Boys. And nah, I'd never be so mean! 

[Gabriel Bezerra 303]

I thought you meant "put him in the green shirt then" (the superior shirt)

[Badzeee 110]

53 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

I'm not sure if the pic means "Get out" or if it was directed at me. If the former then I hope not the latter. (I know EVERYONE says I'm paranoid the moment I turn my back. )

 

 

No. In some ways it's easier to separate Spock from Nimoy. Both of the actors who have stepped into the role of Kirk have said they debate how much Shatner to put into their performance. And I think there is a LOT to Shatner's Kirk that isn't the stereotypical (in the public consciousness anyway) Shatner turned up to 11. Quiet Shatner is the Amazing Shatner.

 

I would rather see more interesting adventures with Pike and his crew than to see a remake of TOS. But in the second season of SNW I think Wesley knocked it out of the park without a shade of Shatner in his performance yet somehow coming across as All Kirk.

 

Sorry, that's more of me being enchanted with Star Trek. Maybe I'm in the wrong thread.

 

👆

 

[I think I may be in the wrong thread too...]

 

I found Wesley initially fairly tepid as Kirk, although that was an alt-future Kirk. Well, so was the Kirk in SNW S2's Tomorrow, and Tomorrow and Tomorrow but suddenly here was a Kirk who seemed absolutely authentic without any of the hanging back of S1's A Quality of Mercy and zero Shatnerisms. How did he pull that off? Just a good, highly engaged actor getting to the center of a character, I guess. 

 

I also loved Pine in ST Beyond especially, who delivered a take on Kirk that was absolutely confident and 100% recognisably Kirk, and which was also almost totally Shatner-free. So it can be done.

 

I just think that Shatner, these days, seldom gets credit where credit's due for the performances where he did give a subtler, layered Kirk. He's remembered - and largely plays this "version" of himself, to the gallery of all social media - as that histrionic Kirk, and that's kind of a shame. At his best, his Kirk was highly nuanced, and was the essential, basic model for all starship captains that came later (Jeffrey Hunter's Pike notwithstanding). At his worst, he's ridiculous, but I kinda like him being ridiculous too. 

 

[I am definitely in the wrong thread.]  

[Mr. Hooper 1,808]

Just now, Gabriel Bezerra said:

I thought you meant "put him in the green shirt then" (the superior shirt)

 

That was the idea. I was just responding to Tallguy maybe also thinking I was telling anyone to "get outta here".

[Tallguy 3,402]

Pike has worn the green shirt, BTW. I always feel a little disloyal when I say Mount's Captain Pike is my favorite captain. But he is. It doesn't make James T. Kirk any less awesome.

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,723]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

I always feel a little disloyal when I say Mount's Captain Pike is my favorite captain.

 

You should.

 

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

But he is.

 

That's unfortunate. 

 

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

It doesn't make James T. Kirk any less awesome.

 

It makes him more awesome.

[Tallguy 3,402]

21 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

That's unfortunate. 

 

"Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant."

[Mr. Hooper 1,808]

I'm not a massive Trek fan, but TOS and Kirk are it for me. Plus, Shatner's from my hometown.

 

No, it's not a "dubious honor".

[Nick1Ø66 4,723]

Captain Kirk is the best Trek Captain. Who else?

 

I have mixed feelings on Mount's Captain Pike. On one hand, I think he's a good actor and his portrayal of Pike is charismatic and effective. He's the best thing on NuTrek (the Wesley Kirk, on the other hand, is dreadful).

 

Despite enjoying Mount's portrayal of Pike, however, I think most of the words the appalling writers on that show put in his mouth are awful. And while SNW is the best of the current lot of Trek show, that's not saying much. Aside from a few scattered episodes, most of it's not very good.

 

The Orville is the best Star Trek we've gotten since Enterprise, and I'm afraid that's not coming back.

[Tallguy 3,402]

I disagree but it IS on topic!

[Nick1Ø66 4,723]

A very logical response.

[Badzeee 110]

I thought about putting this in the Trek Is Better Than Everything thread, but it seems to fit better here. 

 

AI Shatner

[Sweeping Strings 2,365]

You might be cool. But you're not 'the Shat riding a motorbike in Kirk's uniform while learning his lines' cool. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,808]

24 minutes ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Now there's a role model for boys! The AI Kirk will live on to instruct them!

[Tallguy 3,402]

"Don't do it while I'm here and make sure my family gets paid."

 

Well said, sir. No hand wringing or worrying at all.

 

OTOH, I know we're early days, but I haven't seen anything that's been better than a parlor trick. And rather than see what some people think a computer thinks acts like Shatner I'd rather see the discovery of a Chris Pine or a Paul Wesley.

 

Recast Princess Leia!

[mstrox 6,651]

I think they made 58 boring years of Star Trek as part of Gene Roddenberry’s master plan to pull the rug out from under audiences with the reveal of TOS Season 4 (already filmed 50 years ago) which will clarify everything.

[Tallguy 3,402]

4 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I think they made 58 boring years of Star Trek as part of Gene Roddenberry’s master plan to pull the rug out from under audiences with the reveal of TOS Season 4 (already filmed 50 years ago) which will clarify everything.

 

[Badzeee 110]

51 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I think they made 58 boring years of Star Trek as part of Gene Roddenberry’s master plan to pull the rug out from under audiences with the reveal of TOS Season 4 (already filmed 50 years ago) which will clarify everything.

 

They could always "remaster" the Filmation animated Star Trek with AI actors. 22 episodes voiced by the original actors. A whole actual "fourth season" ... well, of a sort.