Saving Return of the Jedi?

[A24 4,346]

Bad? You mean "Murphy" bad? What did Shawn do that is so bad this time?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just listen to his recording from the late 80's and early 90's.

Then listen to his recent stuff.

The poor guy's gone deaf.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I rather enjoy the Indy soundtracks as how they are now. I don't need another cold SE shower. Noooo, thank you.

COLD SE SHOWER!?!?!?

GAHHHH!!! :roll:

Some people just cannot be happy.

The SE releases kicked ass.

Show me another release that is as complete and as well pu together as that one.

[Morlock 11]

Every Goldsmith score from 2002 was better than AOTC.

That's true. I'm not a big Nemesis fan, but Sum of All Fears I liked a lot.

I think Minority Report contains one one of the best themes Williams wrote in the last ten years, namely, 'A New Beginning'. I especially like how the theme is played on the first track on the album. To me it sounds very "Golden Age" Williams.

I love the whole score. My favorite tracks are 'Eye-Dentiscan', for the fantastic build up at the end, and 'Psychic Truth and Finale'. I think it's a really great and underrated Williams score.

[IrishCal24 0]

Well, you gotta credit the stormtroopers with shooting Leia.

Winging on the shoulder?

MY GOD! What accuracy!

Even in Star Wars their accuracy is less than perfect; however, it does seem to get worse with each following film. Perhaps cloning is analogous to dubbing tapes. Copying from the original soucre will produce satifactory results, but making copies from a copy produces material of a consistantly degraded quality.

People's problems with ROTJ could have possibly been helped if George had taken a Rowling-like approach to the series and plotted out main ideas through the whole saga.  That way everything would fit together nicer, and there could be hints and clues along the way, rather than him suddenly deciding to relate the widespread inhabitants of the galaxy together more and more with each installment.

Ray Barnsbury

Ray, Lucas did plot out the entire series, including the prequels to a certain extent, before making Star Wars. He's stated this fact in many interviews over the years. It's one of the few statements he's never waivered on.

"Lucas made Star Wars, like it or not he can do anything he wants to his own creation. And fighting Lucas is impossible. He will only ignore you, thus making you go insane."  

Very sad, but very true!

:cry:

Unfortunately!

I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment because I see nothing sad or unfortunate about what Crushers friend said. Fandom should never have any influence over a someone's original work. Sure, it's fun to speculate on might-have-beens and we may not always like the direction the creation takes but that is the way should be. I'd lose a lot more respect for an artist who catered to fan desires and influences than one who had the guts to stay true to their "vision" even with the knowledge that the result might not be to anyone elses particular liking.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Ray, Lucas did plot out the entire series, including the prequels to a certain extent, before making Star Wars. He's stated this fact in many interviews over the years. It's one of the few statements he's never waivered on.  

I know he's stated that . . . I just find it hard to believe he ALWAYS planned on relating Vader, Luke, and Leia, let alone the Threepio/Vader connection, Qui Gon as Obi Wan's master (and apparently the original believer in Anakin), and Boba/Jango/Clone Wars. Sometimes the new stuff just doesn't go very well with what's already seemingly been established.

Ray Barnsbury

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Fandom should never have any influence over a someone's original work. Sure, it's fun to speculate on might-have-beens and we may not always like the direction the creation takes but that is the way should be. I'd lose a lot more respect for an artist who catered to fan desires and influences than one who had the guts to stay true to their "vision" even with the knowledge that the result might not be to anyone elses particular liking.

I agree with you, but Lucas has done this, most notably with putting OT characters into the prequels, like Boba Fett, having Anakin build Threepio, etc as I mentioned above.

Ray Barnsbury

[IrishCal24 0]

I'm sorry Ray but I don't recall fandom ever dictating that either of those things should happen, in fact, both are a couple of items fans tend to bitch about. Perhaps I should have said, ?fandom's demands should never have any influence over a creator's work? to make myself clear. Acknowledging the fans? appreciation for certain characters is one thing, but it seems that, in this day and age, fans seem to think they have the right to have a say in how something is written and/or filmed. As someone who aspires to be a published author eventually, I find that stance disturbing because it completely undermines the creative process.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Even in Star Wars their accuracy is less than perfect; however, it does seem to get worse with each following film. Perhaps cloning is analogous to dubbing tapes. Copying from the original soucre will produce satifactory results, but making copies from a copy produces material of a consistantly degraded quality.

Hey thats actually a really good theory if ya think about.

Very logical and and analytical thinking there Cal.

However, I always like to think of the stormtroopers as REAL people and NOT clones. At least that is how I will always see em.

[Morn 8]

Degraded quality, yes, you should start seeing mutations and health problems. Errors in copying will add up over time. They won't just fade in skill, skill is a complex thing and would require many unlikely copying errors to alter. DNA is more like digital than analogue technology, copy a DVD enough and you will eventually see some data corruption. In other words expect defects rather than degraded quality. Anyway, I believe what Lucas is trying to say is that even stormtroopers fight better than machines and robots.

[Lurker 5]

DNA is more like digital than analogue technology, copy a DVD enough and you will eventually see some data corruption.

What kind of copy of a DVD will you be making that causes loss? Obviously not a digital copy. So then, what are you recording this DVD too? A digital copy of a CD or a DVD is a perfect clone and as long as you keep making digital copies of these, there will be no loss.

Neil

[A24 4,346]

Morn might have a point there, Neil. I read on a few occasions that high-speed copies are to be avoided for the very reasons Morn mentioned.

[Morn 8]

That's not true, errors are sometimes made in reading or writing, burners and DVD drives are not perfect machines, they are designed to tolerate normal useage demands only. Eventually you are going to build up errors if you copy and re-copy and recopy enough. 38 billion bits of data on a DVD-R, if you keep re-copying that DVD-R errors will build up.

[Lurker 5]

I read on a few occasions that high-speed copies are to be avoided for the very reasons Morn mentioned.

Exactly why I don't burn at high speed.

Neil

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I'm sorry Ray but I don't recall fandom ever dictating that either of those things should happen, in fact, both are a couple of items fans tend to bitch about. Perhaps I should have said, ?fandom's demands should never have any influence over a creator's work? to make myself clear. Acknowledging the fans? appreciation for certain characters is one thing, but it seems that, in this day and age, fans seem to think they have the right to have a say in how something is written and/or filmed. As someone who aspires to be a published author eventually, I find that stance disturbing because it completely undermines the creative process.

It just seems to me that Lucas wanted to make fans say, "Hey look, I know him, he was in the first trilogy!!!" with things like that. Not that he was catering to the fans' demands so to speak, but trying to impress us and in the process making it a little silly. That's just how it seems to me, and if you see it differently, that's cool.

Ray Barnsbury

[Rogue_Leader 2]

You know what ROTJ also lacked? Real scenes where Luke and Vader got to try and understand one another.

What I mean is scenes where each one could try and see where the other was coming from and how they got to where they were. I just feel the struggle between them was not as personal as it should have been. They should've developed that relationship more. They laid the ground work for this at the end of ESB but they never REALLY followed it up in ROTJ. We got a few scenes, but NOT enough. They should;ve done away with the overly long Jabba and Ewok scenes and focused on developing the Luke/Vader relationship over the course of the film. After all that WAS the central emotion plotline in the film and it seems like there was barely 5 scenes for it.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You know what ROTJ also lacked? Real scenes where Luke and Vader got to try and understand one another.  

no it didn't. It lacked Luke understanding that Vader was a monsterous evil force that needed to be destroyed. He was not to be trusted. He was a foul, evil, little cockroach...(heard that somewhere before). Really, think about it, (except Morn), moments before his "redemption", he was talking about turning Leia to the dark side. Real nice guy here. The movie would have been so much better if a ghostly or corporeal Ben sliced him in half with a light saber.

[Henry B 50]

A friend of mine has a theory on stormtrooper inaccuracy:

"...We almost never see them in a combat situation where they're allowed to kill the enemy. In the Death Star, Luke, Han, and Leia were allowed to escape, so that they could be followed to Yavin IV. Same with Bespin. Think about the beginning of ANH, when the stormtroopers board Tantive IV. End result? Quick and efficient takeover."

[KarmBee 0]

Well if the blast points on the sandcrawlers were too accurate for sandpeople, just think how bad a shot the sandpeople are!

[Lurker 5]

A friend of mine has a theory on stormtrooper inaccuracy:

"...We almost never see them in a combat situation where they're allowed to kill the enemy. In the Death Star, Luke, Han, and Leia were allowed to escape, so that they could be followed to Yavin IV. Same with Bespin. Think about the beginning of ANH, when the stormtroopers board Tantive IV. End result? Quick and efficient takeover."

Then explain Endor. I know, maybe your friend intentionally left it out.

Neil

[Morn 8]

They didn't let them go at bespin, what is he talking about?

no it didn't. It lacked Luke understanding that Vader was a monsterous evil force that needed to be destroyed. He was not to be trusted. He was a foul, evil, little cockroach...(heard that somewhere before). Really, think about it, (except Morn), moments before his "redemption", he was talking about turning Leia to the dark side. Real nice guy here. The movie would have been so much better if a ghostly or corporeal Ben sliced him in half with a light saber

Aren't you happy that someone that evil was redeemed? Or do you just want to see him murdered? Who here seems more like someone of the dark side.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

A few add-ons to this thread as I read it:

1. As some people have already stated, there is plenty of unreleased music in AOTC. Somewhere between 60-75 minutes worth (at least) according to my DVD rip that I did a few months back. This includes deleted scenes, which most people (including John Takis' otherwise great breakdown) forgot about. However, very little of it is "I gotta' have that cue" type material. The forementioned "Garage" and "Funeral" scenes might fit this bill, and maybe the alternate/unused finale, but quite a bit of it is underscore without any spectacular moments. That's not saying that I don't want it on an official release, because I do. Both Star Wars and Indiana Jones sagas needs complete releases.

2. Most of the end battle music is hacked up music from TPM, albeit mostly unreleased video game/PC music at that. This would be absolutely HORRID in an UE type "as heard in the film, edits and all" release. IF Williams composed music for these scenes, then they would be "I gotta' have that cue" type material. However, most reports and guesses point to no. If any movie needs a special edition treatment more, it's AOTC, with Williams composing or re-composing music for the entire last 3rd or 4th of the movie, along with the unused Arena music being poperly re-installed (damn that was a stupid decision to leave it out... the digital animation is so fake that it needs the music to liven it up a little). TPM's ending could use a re-scoring too, but not as much as AOTC needs it.

3. I do love the AOTC score. ALOT. It's my favorite Williams score SINCE AI and TPM, hands down. However, even though I personally love it, I still admit that it is the weakest Star Wars score. I really don't know why so many hate it so passionately though. I LOVE the action cues, and the Tusken Camp/Bringing Mother Home cue is just as good as any music Williams has ever written, IMO. It's perfect! If only Lucass timed the scenes better... the best part of the movie was rushed and the worst parts were drawn out. This has happened in the last 2 Star Wars films (some would argue 3, but Jedi was timed FAR better than TPM and AOTC), and if E3 is to be a success, Lucas needs to get his timing right!!! DAMMIT! The Prequels aren't without their moments. It's just you blink and they are gone, back to a boring scene.

4. I fully disagree that anything Goldsmith has done is better than AOTC. I am one person who just cannot get into Goldsmith's music. So many people have sent me Goldsmith scores, and I've listened to them all. I just don't dig the dude's music. Maybe one reason is that I'm not a huge fan of any of the movies that he's done. Of his scores that I've heard on CD or in the movie, I like ST:TMP best, and I'm still not crazy about that score either.

5. Final point that will be coded in secrecy, only for Morn to read. Amazing that Morn can see the nearly unfathomable complex digitally coded accuracy of DNA and still believe it's all by chance. When's the last time someone found a CD or a computer (billions of times less complex than the most simple living organism) laying in a field somewhere and someone said, "Look at what millions of years of winds and rain did!"

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Chris, as knowledgeable on film music as you are, surely you recognise STTMP is lightyears better than AOTC. Its far more memorable and listenable.

[Morlock 11]

I don't think he would admit it, even though of course it's true.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

In terms of my tastes, I love AOTC and only like ST:TMP.

Would I say that opinion is in the minority? Of course.

Does that make one opinion more relevent than the other? No. It's art. With art, take what you like, disregard the rest.

I also happen to like some comic book and comic strip art more than many classic paintings. Even if I admit that more skill or talent may or may not go into the paintings, it doesn't mean I have to like one more than the other. So sue me. You'll find the millions of people that will argue that pop/rock music heard on the radio is better than any film score. Maybe they aren't right technically, but according to their tastes, they can have that opinion.

[Lurker 5]

I fully disagree that anything Goldsmith has done is better than AOTC.

Then by extrapolation, you think everything Vince DiCola has done (all 2 or 3 scores) is better than everything done by Jerry Goldsmith. All I can say is....

Neil

[Justin 2]

I'm with Neil. Although everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Justin -

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Does that make one opinion more relevent than the other? No. It's art. With art, take what you like, disregard the rest.  

I get it, its sorta like you saying the art work American Gothic, by Grant Wood is better than DaVinci's Mona Lisa.

Its your opinion, and its valid, but nobody takes it seriously.

Joe, who really did a disservice to American Gothic.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

You know what ROTJ also lacked? Real scenes where Luke and Vader got to try and understand one another.  

no it didn't. It lacked Luke understanding that Vader was a monsterous evil force that needed to be destroyed. He was not to be trusted. He was a foul, evil, little cockroach...(heard that somewhere before). Really, think about it, (except Morn), moments before his "redemption", he was talking about turning Leia to the dark side. Real nice guy here. The movie would have been so much better if a ghostly or corporeal Ben sliced him in half with a light saber.

I actually agree Joe.

What I mean is a better understanding of Vader by Luke that would help him avoid the temptations of the dark side that his father fell to.

I also agree about Vader going good being a REALLY dumb move. Sloppy writin intended to give the film a "nice" resolution and put a happy face on things. I still see Anakin standing next to Obi-Wan smiling and almost have to wonder why Ben didn't beat the crap about of Anakin for betraying and killin him.

[Morn 8]

I still see Anakin standing next to Obi-Wan smiling and almost have to wonder why Ben didn't beat the crap about of Anakin for betraying and killin him.

Umm, you know, the light side is supposed to be forgiving, not revengeful. I don't think the ending is sloppy, I think it perfect fits in with the whole light and dark idea of the movie.

[A24 4,346]

The movie would have been so much better if a ghostly or corporeal Ben sliced him in half with a light saber.

That's not how Lucas pictured it. I'll bet that in his mind Luke was more of a biblical person, one of understanding and forgiveness. I think it was right for Luke to try and be so biblical about Vader. It think it was wrong of Vader to give in and become Galaxy's sweetheart #1.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I still see Anakin standing next to Obi-Wan smiling and almost have to wonder why Ben didn't beat the crap about of Anakin for betraying and killin him.

Umm, you know, the light side is supposed to be forgiving, not revengeful. I don't think the ending is sloppy, I think it perfect fits in with the whole light and dark idea of the movie.

Sorry but that is just too easy.

Obi-Wan instantly forgives him?

I mean this man betrayed, murdered, tortured, and a whole bunch of other nasty stuff and he just instantly gets a reprieve.

So by this logic if Hiter said he was "Sorry" at the end of WW2. The allies should of just said "Oh thats OK! Now that you've embraced the light side again".

Seriously man that is just too easy.

[Eplicon 53]

Anakin was corrupted by the dark side, partly through his own faults/actions, but also through manipulation from Palpatine's influences. When he became Vader, the dark side all but squelched who Anakin was. So on that regard, Obi-Wan may have thought Anakin was possessed by stronger powers, demons, etc., that were beyond his control. Anakin was only able to confront and get passed the dark side (one of the last trials for a Jedi) when he saved Luke's life.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

it appears that we cannot save Return of the Jedi, though our efforts are better than Lucas'

[Lurker 5]

it appears that we cannot save Return of the Jedi, though our efforts are better than Lucas'

I was just thinking that. 4 pages and this is what we've come to. Perhaps there just is no saving Return of the Jedi.

Neil

[A24 4,346]

It's beyond repair.

---------------

Alex cremers

Yes Neil, it was already established on page 1.

[Morn 8]

So by this logic if Hiter said he was "Sorry" at the end of WW2. The allies should of just said "Oh thats OK! Now that you've embraced the light side again".

But the dark and light side are fictional. Real life isn't so black and white, it can't work in real life. Vader showed with his actions he had converted from dark to light.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

So by this logic if Hiter said he was "Sorry" at the end of WW2. The allies should of just said "Oh thats OK! Now that you've embraced the light side again".

But the dark and light side are fictional. Real life isn't so black and white, it can't work in real life. Vader showed with his actions he had converted from dark to light.

Well perhaps I want something more realistic from these movies after all!

Anyway, like I've said before I dont think this movie needs saving per se and even if it did its too late to go back and change everything.

Unless you want to see Lucas make MORE changes to these movies and I think we can ALL agree that is a no-no.

[the_infidel 0]

Does that make one opinion more relevent than the other? No. It's art. With art, take what you like, disregard the rest.  

I get it, its sorta like you saying the art work American Gothic, by Grant Wood is better than DaVinci's Mona Lisa.

Its your opinion, and its valid, but nobody takes it seriously.

Joe, who really did a disservice to American Gothic.

So, your defense is, "More people agree with me?"

Weak.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

So, your defense is, "More people agree with me?"  

Weak.

I didn't say that, but its clear that my post was beyond you.

[Ollie 1,059]

After Star Wars and TESB I just expected a 3rd film that would be on the same level. I'm sorry for expecting too much.

That's the main reason why I don't get too upset over the Prequels, I wasn't expecting too much from them.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

After Star Wars and TESB I just expected a 3rd film that would be on the same level. I'm sorry for expecting too much.

That's the main reason why I don't get too upset over the Prequels, I wasn't expecting too much from them.

The Prequels make ROTJ look better than ESB.

[Lurker 5]

The Prequels make ROTJ look better than ESB.  

No, the prequels and Return of the Jedi make Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back look like flukes.

Neil

[A24 4,346]

Flukes that Lucas is desperately trying to correct.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

The Prequels make ROTJ look better than ESB.  

No, the prequels and Return of the Jedi make Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back look like flukes.

Neil

Neil do you really believe that ROTJ is as BAD as the Prequels?

I will FULLY agree it is lacking, but I think there is enough in the movie to redeem it from the Prequel level.

[Lurker 5]

Neil do you really believe that ROTJ is as BAD as the Prequels?

I think I might actually prefer TPM to ROTJ, with AOTC as the absolute bottom of the barrel.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think I might actually prefer TPM to ROTJ,

And they made you Moderator!

[Morlock 11]

[the_infidel 0]

So, your defense is, "More people agree with me?"  

Weak.

I didn't say that, but its clear that my post was beyond you.

I'm afraid it's exactly what you're saying.

That, or you're claiming superior taste in music... :roll:

[King Mark 3,631]

New posters must have total respect of the Elders cannot use the following emoticons:

:roll: banghead

K.M.Setting things straight