Saving Return of the Jedi?

JoeinAR · April 9, 2004

There has been alot of debate on this film lately.

It seems that this board in general believes this the weakest of the original trilogy.

Many, not all, feel that it left alot wanting. Its very flawed, but still entertaining, and IMHO better than the 2 prequels.

If you feel this is a film of missed opportunities, how would you save it?

Thoughts and idea's please, don't be shy.

Eplicon · April 9, 2004

For a time, when TPM came out, I thought it was an improvement of ROTJ. But now comparing the first two prequels to the classic trilogy, I no longer have the same sentiment. The Ewoks are the lesser of the two evils in juxtaposition to the Gun-Guns. As for the Ewoks, I know they were supposed to be analogous to the Vietnamese people from the war; they lived more "primitively" and had far lesser weapons technology. And they still won the war. I would have preferred Lucas' original idea of using Wookiees, but I think Lucas said something about since Chewbacca was so sophisticated with his weapons know-how and being a part of the Alliance, it would have had the same impact if ROTJ featured all Wookiees. (Guess he decided to revive that idea for Episode III.)

I don't know what'd improvements I implement. The Tatooine sequences weren't that great, nor was the stuff on Endor. There was not enough insight about Anakin/Vader, save for a few fragmentary lines given by Obi-Wan. While everyone pretty knew much the back story, it was hardly covered in the movie. Yeah, I know that a lot of this material was shot, but ended being cut, for running time, and Lucas probably deciding he wanted to change stuff down the road. Which he did.

It only the last forty minutes of the movie when it was an all-out Star Wars film.

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · April 9, 2004

Han Solo & The Princess, their relationship lacked the spark it had in the first 2 films.

The Ewoks, they should have been vicious looking creatures that would make Chewie look like a shaggy dog standing erect.

Yoda should not have died from old age about 5 minutes after Luke visits him. ("Soon I will rest...forever sleep.") not THAT soon.

Ben Kenobi squating down next to Luke. (how does a ghost sit on a rock)

When Luke takes of Vaders mask we should see a horrible scarred face, with still some malice and evil in the eyes of Anakin Skywalker, traitor and mass murderer, instead of this friendly grandfather with a few burn marks.

Mr. Breathmask · April 9, 2004

They should have just gone with the original set-up. The much darker version, that would actually continue the story and feel of TESB, instead of a first half hour of boredom, then a nice action scene, and then once that nasty problem from Ep. V is on the way, plunge straight into a Ep. IV rehash with cuddly teddy bears. Too bad.

On the other hand, this film's over 20 years old, so worrying about it now isn't going to change anything. Nor would it have changed anything 2 decades before this.

- Marc

Eplicon · April 9, 2004

I wish ROTJ could have captured Anakin's deathbed reflections, which was so eloquently described in the novelization. But then if it had been filmed that way, it probably would've amounted to nothing more than the Luke and Anakin staring at each other for a very long time. Maybe Lucas'll insert flashback scenes in Anakin's final moments. But then it would be more like Michael Corleone's death scene in Godfather Part III. Been there, done that. I am almost wary that the DVD will have a Jedi family reunion at the end, during the Ewo-- er, galaxy celebration.

Vader wasn't as menacing as he was the first two films, although I take that to be a slight sentimental weakness he had towards Luke. While Kasdan might have contributed to the screenplay, it was nowhere near the brilliance of its predecessor. I think Lucas fixed it up so it was the way he wanted it. And Lucas hired new guys that would bow to him, hence his falling out with Gary Kurtz after TESB.

While ROTJ was supposedly a springboard to give you a backstory to the prequels -- of Anakin's rise and fall -- I've been quite disappointed thus far. Long before the prequels were in the works, I had pictured Anakin as one of the most respected and revered Jedi of his day, not someone who's always pissing and moaning....

Lurker · April 9, 2004

I'd make the opening Tatooine sequence relevant to the rest of the film.

I would not have a second Death Star. And if I did have a galactic super weapon capable of destroying planets I would not have it taking random shots at space ships. I'd have it threatening worlds.

Ewoks would not be as cute.

I'd think through the logic (that lowering the shield thing really annoys me).

No burp jokes.

I'd actually pursue the "bring order to the galaxy as father and son" line from Empire.

A cackling villain? How cliche'd is that?

Teddy bears dancing around a campfire? Good-bye!

Neil

Steven Awalt · April 9, 2004

And let's not forget to edit out the "Tarzan" yell with Chewie and the Ewoks. That's got to be the worst thing Lucas has ever committed to film.

Eplicon · April 10, 2004

The Tarzan yelp, whether or not it fitted, was Lucas' homage to Edgar Rice Burroughs -- an author who, among others, was influential to him in the characters and adventures we enjoy today. I would've preferred a Samurai yell instead of Tarzan's.

Steven Awalt · April 10, 2004

If you're going to do an homage though, its best not to make your film look stupid and juvenile. The Tarzan yell is right up there with the "California Girls" bit in A View to a Kill. An absolute cheap showstopper on both counts. Lucas can have respect for Burroughs all he wants, but it was still a horrendous choice for Jedi.

Lurker · April 10, 2004

it was still a horrendous choice for Jedi.

I'm hard pressed to find any good choices in Jedi.

Neil

Jeshopk · April 10, 2004

They should have just gone with the original set-up. The much darker version, that would actually continue the story and feel of TESB, instead of a first half hour of boredom, then a nice action scene, and then once that nasty problem from Ep. V is on the way, plunge straight into a Ep. IV rehash with cuddly teddy bears. Too bad.

The original drafts of the script were even less dark. The ending had yoda, obi-wan and anakin coming back in the flesh, and they were just in "the nether world". Luke doesn't give in to the darkside, even to defeat vader, obiwan does most of the fighting, and luke has images of yoda as shields when the emperor electrocutes him. Not dark...the revisions made it more like empire. The ewoks were always in the script. There was never a script with Wookies.

And the Millenium Falcon only blew up in a rejected Kasdan Draft.

George Lucas solely wrote the Rough draft and revised rough draft, then handed it to Kasdan. In Empire, George solely wrote the first drafts. The woman credited actually had ALL of her work rejected, and when she died, George just started from scratch but credited her in honor. She had Luka and Darth fighting as shadows in outer space

For a summary of the evolution between scripts go to...

http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/writing...iations_roj.htm

Morn · April 10, 2004

I'd make the opening Tatooine sequence relevant to the rest of the film.

Doesn't need to be, it's exciting enough as it is.

I would not have it taking random shots at space ships. I'd have it threatening worlds.

That would be a worse rehash than the actual death star. It's just an object, a plot device, you propose the plot also treat it the same way as it did in ANH.

Ewoks would not be as cute.

Without cuteness, they lose any redeeming feature.

I'd think through the logic (that lowering the shield thing really annoys me).

Eh, it's not too bothersome in the movie.

I'd actually pursue the "bring order to the galaxy as father and son" line from Empire.

Eh....

A cackling villain? How cliche'd is that?

It fits and works, the trilogy is fulled with archetypes.

Teddy bears dancing around a campfire? Good-bye!

:roll:

A great movie that's much more enjoyable than the first movie. No more dull corridors and sneaking around. It's fulled with excitement, adventure, and the dramatic climax of the series. The plot may have a few logic flaws, but it doesn't affect the film much.

A24 · April 10, 2004

You sure have a unique view, Morn, but it's slowing us down.

His taste and judgement made Morn the loneliest man in the world.

Rogue_Leader · April 10, 2004

The film doesn't need "Saving" the film needs "Improving".

IMO its all but impossible to do real improvement on this film now. The real weakness of it is in the storyline. Its just too pat. Not mature enough. Not complex enough for a final climactic film. You'd need the original actors at their ages when the film came out.

If you are talking hypothetically speaking. I would change the storyline so it was darker and more believeable. I would've expanded on the "Luke going to the dark side" and "Vader betraying the Emperor" storylines. I hate how Vader said he wanted Luke to help him waste the emperor in the 2nd film and then in the third film they make him look like here is a mere pawn to Papatine who follows his every word.

I would've had Luke possibly being tempted by Vader's promise and Vader helping Luke destroy the Emperor not out of some "Weak redemption", but out of greed for Paltaine's power.

Overall ROTJ is a good film, a VERY good film, but it lacks behind the first two.

Rogue_Leader · April 10, 2004

Ben Kenobi squating down next to Luke. (how does a ghost sit on a rock)

YEAH EXACTLY!!!

Thank you!

I always brought this point up to other people and they were like "Oh come on! Dont be a nit picker!". However, it REALLY does seem to hurt the belieability of such a scene.

I mean WTF would he even need to sit down in the first place for? I dont think ghosts' legs need a rest.

Lurker · April 10, 2004

I'd make the opening Tatooine sequence relevant to the rest of the film.
Doesn't need to be, it's exciting enough as it is.

It's debatable if it's even exciting, but assuming that it is exciting, that still doesn't mean it has anything whatsoever to do with the rest of the movie. Once Han is rescued, they never mention it again and it has absolutely nothing to do with the final out come of the film.

I'd think through the logic (that lowering the shield thing really annoys me).
Eh, it's not too bothersome in the movie.

But why do we spend all this time lowering a shield around the Death Star when the shuttle is going to Endor, which has no shield around it? If the shield really was able to be lowered so easily the rebels should have used that to their advantage and staged a sneak attack and not bother with all that nonsense on Endor trying to lower the shield. But then there'd be no movie, right? Surprisingly, I have no problems with that.

I'd actually pursue the "bring order to the galaxy as father and son" line from Empire.
Eh....

Exactly.

A cackling villain? How cliche'd is that?
It fits and works, the trilogy is fulled with archetypes.

That's not an archetype. That's pandering.

Teddy bears dancing around a campfire? Good-bye!
:roll:

Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back deserve a better conclusion than that.

Neil

Morn · April 10, 2004

It's debatable if it's even exciting, but assuming that it is exciting, that still doesn't mean it has anything whatsoever to do with the rest of the movie. Once Han is rescued, they never mention it again and it has absolutely nothing to do with the final out come of the film.

So? Han is an important character of the series, it's just, sort of act 1.

But why do we spend all this time lowering a shield around the Death Star when the shuttle is going to Endor, which has no shield around it? If the shield really was able to be lowered so easily the rebels should have used that to their advantage and staged a sneak attack and not bother with all that nonsense on Endor trying to lower the shield. But then there'd be no movie, right? Surprisingly, I have no problems with that.

The shield was lowered so the shuttle could go to endor, perhaps the shield going upwards towards the death star gives the generator pretty good protection too.

That's not an archetype. That's pandering.

Vader is like a comic book villian almost, I mean, this is not a mafia drama. :mrgreen: I have little problem with the emperor laughing.

Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back deserve a better conclusion than that.

If someones got to celebrate, it might as well be teddy bears.

A24 · April 10, 2004

I don't understand what there is to defend about ROTJ. No, I wasn't biased. I had no hateful agenda against the movie. I too went into the theatre in 1983 thinking Lucas was a god. But what I experienced then came pretty close to the feeling I had during the Chewbacca TV special. My "Star Wars" friends felt the same.

It's beyond repair.

---------------

Alex cremers

Eplicon · April 10, 2004

Ben Kenobi squating down next to Luke. (how does a ghost sit on a rock)
I always brought this point up to other people and they were like "Oh come on! Dont be a nit picker!". However, it REALLY does seem to hurt the belieability of such a scene.
I mean WTF would he even need to sit down in the first place for? I dont think ghosts' legs need a rest.

Of course, the fan boy response would be that Star Wars doesn't take place in our universe, so the laws of physics/science/whatever doesn't apply. And secondly, the Force allows the Jedi, living or dead, to do some amazing stuff. :roll:

Mr. Breathmask · April 10, 2004

If he can walk on solid ground, why would he not be able to sit on a rock?

Lurker · April 10, 2004

It's debatable if it's even exciting, but assuming that it is exciting, that still doesn't mean it has anything whatsoever to do with the rest of the movie. Once Han is rescued, they never mention it again and it has absolutely nothing to do with the final out come of the film.
So? Han is an important character of the series, it's just, sort of act 1.

It's more of an extended prologue, with nothing to connect it to the rest of the film. It's a stand alone sequence, with not one but two burp jokes. If you really think this serves the Star Wars legacy well, that's not my problem.

But why do we spend all this time lowering a shield around the Death Star when the shuttle is going to Endor, which has no shield around it? If the shield really was able to be lowered so easily the rebels should have used that to their advantage and staged a sneak attack and not bother with all that nonsense on Endor trying to lower the shield. But then there'd be no movie, right? Surprisingly, I have no problems with that.
The shield was lowered so the shuttle could go to endor, perhaps the shield going upwards towards the death star gives the generator pretty good protection too.

This point is never shown during the rebel briefing. It could have been explained there if the film makers had any interest in having their movie make sense.

That's not an archetype. That's pandering.
Vader is like a comic book villian almost, I mean, this is not a mafia drama. I have little problem with the emperor laughing.

You've got it backwards. Comic book villains laugh at their diabolical schemes. Vader never did that.

Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back deserve a better conclusion than that.
If someones got to celebrate, it might as well be teddy bears.

I should have probably re-phrased that. The Empire Strikes Back deserves a better ending. Star Wars' ending is perfect for the movie. It's just that had Jedi been any damn good, we would have had a great trilogy. As it is, it leaves us with one great film and a sequel in search of a proper ending.

Ben Kenobi squating down next to Luke. (how does a ghost sit on a rock)

This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard! Everyone knows it's a log he's sitting on.

Neil

Elmo Lewis · April 10, 2004

Wow, believe it or not, I really like the revised rough draft. It had potential, but I guess Lucas had to play the safer card.

fommes · April 10, 2004

Ben Kenobi squating down next to Luke. (how does a ghost sit on a rock)

I really hate it when he does that.

(Not ironic.)

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · April 10, 2004

I should have probably re-phrased that. The Empire Strikes Back deserves a better ending.

I completely disagree, TESB had the perfect ending.

This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard! Everyone knows it's a log he's sitting on.
Neil

And you better learn to respect the fact that not everybody is as high and mighty as yourself and capable of making mistakes.

Ever tried expressing yourself in a intelligent and kind manner?

You are the Moderator of this place, the least you could do is be the friendly face of JWFAN.NET.

Do you treat customers in your store with the same disrespect?

Ford A. Thaxton could learn from you....

Mr. Breathmask · April 10, 2004

LOL

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · April 10, 2004

What the hell are you laughing at?

Henry B · April 10, 2004

IIRC the shield had to be lowered for the shuttle Tydirium to land on Endor's moon.

JoeinAR · April 10, 2004

no it didn't.

Lurker · April 10, 2004

IIRC the shield had to be lowered for the shuttle Tydirium to land on Endor's moon.

But why? It's very clear during the rebel briefing that the shield completely surrounds the Death Star but not Endor. This is just really sloppy, but then the whole movie is really a sloppy mess.

Neil

Henry B · April 10, 2004

Well, yes, there's an inconsistency with the rebel briefing, but it's better than there being no shield around Endor at all.

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · April 10, 2004

As I understand it, no shield surrounds Endor.

Eplicon · April 10, 2004

Palpatine set up the situation as such to have the Rebels come to him, both in space and on Endor, so he could wipe out everyone at the right moment. I think the novelization said something about having the Death Star destroy the moon as a coup de grace.

"An entire legion of my best troops awaits them," he boasts to Luke.

Lurker · April 10, 2004

Here is the dialogue and a photograph from the scene.

Ackbar: You can see here the Death Star orbitting the forest moon of Endor. Although the weapon systems on this Death Star are not yet operational, the Death Star does have a strong defense mechanism. It is protected by an energy shield which is generated from the nearby forest moon of Endor. The shield must be deactivated if any attack is to be attempted.

Later in the scene...

General Madine: We have stolen a small Imperial shuttle. Disguised as a cargo ship and using a secret Imperial code, a strike team will land on the moon and deactivate the shield generator.

And then for no reason we get to this line...

Han: Shuttle Tydirium requesting deactivation of the deflector shield.

Which leads to...

Controller: (filtered) Shuttle Tydirium, deactivation of the shield will commence immediately.

So let me get this straight, the best strategy the rebels could come up with was to use a stolen shuttle to land on the planet to turn off the shield, when all they had to do was ask to have it turned off? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The shield is down, fly in with the entire fleet and blow up the Death Star. Problem solved!

Neil

diskobolus · April 10, 2004

I've thought all these years that the deflector shield here refers to a shield around the landing platform on the moon. It makes sense in that regard. It's confusing because Palpatine uses the phrase "deflector shield" when he describes it as being operational when the Rebels arrive.

Henry B · April 10, 2004

No, there wouldn't have been enough time. If the Rebel Fleet dropped out of hyperspace, the shield would be back up like *that*. The shield seems to be too close to the Death Star for the Fleet to safely jump inside of it.

Another thing is that they didn't just turn off the shield on Endor, they destroyed the shield generator. The shield can be turned back on quickly enough but obviously not rebuilt.

Lurker · April 10, 2004

Another thing is that they didn't just turn off the shield on Endor, they destroyed the shield generator. The shield can be turned back on quickly enough but obviously not rebuilt.

Obviously, but if it so easy to get it deactivated (and admit it, it's ridiculously easy for the rebels to do it) then another strategy could and probably should have been formulated.

But if you want to think, "Gee, some guy could just flip the on switch", okay, here's another one for you: Why didn't the rebels just land their stolen shuttle at the shield generator right away? It would have been consistent with their cover story about bringing parts to the moon and it would have saved a lot of time. They could go in, take over the thing, blow it up and leave before the Imperials could respond.

Instead we get an Imperial shuttle landing at some unknown location and the rebels walking around completely in the open to get to the bunker, when they already had the best cover in the world. None of this adds up.

Neil - taking this far too seriously

Henry B · April 11, 2004

Eh, they might not have had clearance to land right at the shield generator. Who's to say?

diskobolus · April 11, 2004

Wait, who's to say there was even a landing platform at the shield generator location?

Lurker · April 11, 2004

You guys aren't getting it. The point of this thread is try and save Return of the Jedi. I'm offering possible scenarios that could have been written and improved the movie. You're just taking what's on-screen at face value and not questioning it. The film is deeply flawed, and shows that things weren't thought through properly.

So as depicted on screen, the shield generator is someplace reeeeeeaaaaaalllllllyyyyyyy far away from the actual dish projecting the shield. I know this because the charges set off in the bunker blow up the antenna (how is that even possible?) which is nowhere near the bunker. You only see the antenna when it blows up, and when it does, it looks like it takes out about half of the surrounding forest, but Han is only about 30 feet or so from the bunker he just blew up, so the antenna is in a completely different location. Hey, why bother with the bunker anyway? Why not just blow up the antenna? Oh this movie just gets worse and worse.

Neil

Morn · April 11, 2004

Yes, Han was too close you have a point. But one can assume, that the shield gave protection to the shield generator and the death star, from that imagine it could easily cover a large area of the planet surface too.

And they blow up what looks like an energy making device, if the bunker was not the shield generate, it did generate the power for the shield generate, maybe a power surge. :mrgreen:

You've got it backwards. Comic book villains laugh at their diabolical schemes. Vader never did that.

So what, he is a pretty exaggerated and campy villian, like all comic book villians....

I should have probably re-phrased that. The Empire Strikes Back deserves a better ending. Star Wars' ending is perfect for the movie. It's just that had Jedi been any damn good, we would have had a great trilogy. As it is, it leaves us with one great film and a sequel in search of a proper ending.

TESB has a good ending, and it also has a good part 2.

Lurker · April 11, 2004

So what, he is a pretty exaggerated and campy villian, like all comic book villians....

Vader was never campy in Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. He was pure evil all the way and mean and believable.

Compare him to the emperor in Return of the Jedi. Now there is a campy villain.

Neil

Morlock · April 11, 2004

I was never into Star Wars as much as most of you guys (first time I really liked them was in 99', when I saw the SE in anticipation of TPM), and I don't see anything wrong with RoTJ on a large scale. A couple of scenes, a few lines, but nothing huge. For me it goes ESB-RoTJ-SW (it's the same with my opinions of the scores).

Morn · April 11, 2004

Vader was never campy in Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. He was pure evil all the way and mean and believable.

He's a good villian, but I can't see anything like him in a serious movie. :mrgreen:

King Mark · April 11, 2004

I love the music in that scene.It's the #1 reason I wanted the S.E. soundtrack since it was left off all the previous releases.And by the track titles the OST was supposed to have it but I guess it was changed.