Saving Return of the Jedi?

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually I've tossed that idea around, here are some more ideas:

10. If you don't redeem Vader then maybe Obi-Wan redeems himself by coming back and slaying Vader, (thus becoming more powerful than you could possibly imagine), Luke then kills the Emperor with Yoda's help.

11. The whole situation of the "Other" is somewhat of a mess because you don't have the time to really introduce another major character in ROTJ unless you end that on somewhat of a cliff hanger with Luke's sibling only mentioned and not appearing on screen and he goes off in search of her at the end.

Another scenerio involves Yoda revealing her location before he dies and it's part of the victory montage at the end, with Luke introducing himself to her.

I think Leia still remains the logical choice.

12. Another wild and kinda out there scenerio that would have worked before Lucas made the prequels is that Anakin himself is the other and still alive. Vader has lied to Luke to lure him to the Dark Side, Obi-Wan was telling the truth but only Yoda knew that Anakin survived Vader's attack and has been in hiding until his son was ready to join him and overthrow the Emperor.

Of course that's all out the window since Lucas made the Prequels.

[Lurker 5]

Another wild and kinda out there scenerio that would have worked before Lucas made the prequels is that Anakin himself is the other and still alive. Vader has lied to Luke to lure him to the Dark Side, Obi-Wan was telling the truth but only Yoda knew that Anakin survived Vader's attack and has been in hiding until his son was ready to join him and overthrow the Emperor.  

Of course that's all out the window since Lucas made the Prequels.

A friend of mine also said this to me once. It's not that "out there" and would make for a far better resolution to the series.

Neil

[Trumpeteer 302]

I like Mark's suggestions. Now, create abotu two hours of dialogue, imagine the worlds in which this will take place and get your actors to get excited about this. Not easy.

As much as ROTJ is the weaker of the original trilogy, it's still great.

I'm glad no one thought to redo the music. It's what drives the movie. At least John Williams still had some creative energy here.

Just think about the battle on Tatooine, the speeder bike chase, the first talk between Vader and Luke, their lengthy saber battle and then that operatic chorus during the conclusion of it.

And I love the reveal of Vader's face. You couldn't have him die in that mask. Musically it was brilliant and without it getting too soapy it had the right touch.

Yes, there are stale moments. But it's better than most of the films that were "inspired" by it ("Independence Day" among them).

Jeff

[Lurker 5]

Just think about the battle on Tatooine

Re-scored to incorporate music from Star Wars, mainly the concert suite "The Battle". The original cue is much better.

the speeder bike chase

Only the very beginning is scored.

Neil

[ridan 0]

1. Don't make Jabba a SLUG!

2. Keep Fett in the story longer instead of killing him in the first third.

3. Terminate the Ewoks.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Darker would have been better.

Its not that the whole movie is 100% terrible. Even the Ewok sequence has a decent moment when one is killed and the other mourns. Its a nice touch. I don't have nearly the problem that Neil does with the beginning. Han has to find resolution to his bounty hunter problems, so I see that as having to do with the film, but I don't like Boba Fett being killed so quickly, but considering how empty his father's character was, its no big deal.

[Henry B 50]

Even the Ewok sequence has a decent moment when one is killed and the other mourns. Its a nice touch.

That was actually a mistake...some Ewok actor tripped while the camera was still on.

[King Mark 3,631]

Darker would have been better.  

 Even the Ewok sequence has a decent moment when one is killed and the other mourns.  .

And some of Williams best "tragic" music ever.Beats "The Church Parish Aflame" in Patriot.

K.M.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Still dont understand why the whole speeder bike chase wasn't scored.

I mean that scene BEGS for some awesome action music.

A schertzo perhaps?

[Morn 8]

And Don't redeem the mass murderer Darth Vader.

The more evil someone is, the more important it would be for them to be redeemed.... I really dislike the way you seem... so lacking in mercy.

[Lurker 5]

And Don't redeem the mass murderer Darth Vader.

The more evil someone is, the more important it would be for them to be redeemed.... I really dislike the way you seem... so lacking in mercy.

Huh? Vader completely lacked mercy at all times, and you think Joe is merciless? The message this movie sends is take the quicker, easier more seductive path, kill people, destroy worlds and become the galaxies biggest mass murderer because 5 minutes before you die, you can suddenly become good.

I hate that Star Wars' focus has become the life and death of Darth Vader.

Neil

[Morn 8]

No it doesn't, it just shows what to be good is about. And that it's important, for anyone to try and be it.

[Morlock 11]

And Don't redeem the mass murderer Darth Vader.

The more evil someone is, the more important it would be for them to be redeemed.... I really dislike the way you seem... so lacking in mercy.

Huh? Vader completely lacked mercy at all times, and you think Joe is merciless? The message this movie sends is take the quicker, easier more seductive path, kill people, destroy worlds and become the galaxies biggest mass murderer because 5 minutes before you die, you can suddenly become good.

I hate that Star Wars' focus has become the life and death of Darth Vader.

Neil

That's Bart Simpson's approach to life, who am I to argue?

[MrScratch 294]

The message this movie sends is take the quicker, easier more seductive path, kill people, destroy worlds and become the galaxies biggest mass murderer because 5 minutes before you die, you can suddenly become good.

One way Lucas could still fix this is to have Yoda, Ben and Anakin appear to Luke at the end of Jedi. Anakin, however, fades while Yoda and Ben continue to shine bright. The message here being that he does redeem himself by saving his son (thus allowing the Jedi order to continue), but far too late. He does not become one with the Force and achieve immortality in the way Yoda and Obi-Wan do. Anakin was the chosen one but took an easier path, and it cost him his soul. Too deep for Star Wars fans? Probably.

Jeff

[Morn 8]

That's not a hopeful or positive message, if you're trying to aspire people to goodness, it's perhaps not best to do it by fear.

[MrScratch 294]

That's not a hopeful or positive message, if you're trying to aspire people to goodness, it's perhaps not best to do it by fear.

Neither is letting people get away with murder...

[Morn 8]

Revenge, is a very basic emotion.

[Lurker 5]

Revenge, is a very basic emotion.

Jedi don't seek revenge.

Neil

[Eplicon 53]

Revenge, is a very basic emotion.

Jedi don't seek revenge.

Neil

And was a key factor on why Anakin succumed to the dark side.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I would have Luke fight and kill the Emperor with Yoda's help, but Vader and ObiWan would fight and OB1 would kill Vader easily, proving he why he said he would become more powerful that Vader could imagine. Luke would learn the valuable lesson that sometimes you can get so caught up in wanting something to be that its not, and that it can nearly cost you your life, soul, or both and jeopardize your loved ones.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

And Don't redeem the mass murderer Darth Vader.

The more evil someone is, the more important it would be for them to be redeemed.... I really dislike the way you seem... so lacking in mercy.

Huh? Vader completely lacked mercy at all times, and you think Joe is merciless? The message this movie sends is take the quicker, easier more seductive path, kill people, destroy worlds and become the galaxies biggest mass murderer because 5 minutes before you die, you can suddenly become good.

I hate that Star Wars' focus has become the life and death of Darth Vader.

Neil

EXACTLY NEIL!!!!

I totally agree. I have ALWAYS had a problem with this. Even back when I was really young.

I mean here you have a guy who has been at least partially responsible for what? Millions? Possibly BILLIONS of lives across the galaxy. Directly responsible for a great many himself. A man who has betrayed everyone everything he stood for in the worst possible way. Vader was friggin Hitler evil.

Then I am supposed to buy he makes a transition in the course of a matter of hours of meeting Luke in ROTJ? JEDI PLEASE!

OK yeah, your supposed to buy the film's shaky philosophy that Vader/Anakin is not really evil at his core but is merely being held by the power of the dark side and Luke helps break that grip, but that is just too much a stretch. Even for a film series that is according to Lucas supposed to be "Just a fairy tale".

See this is why I love ESB so much. That movie really tried to break the "Fairy tale" mold and create complex multi-dimensional characters.

Honestly to this day I still have no idea what happened to Lucas in between ESB and ROTJ. Its like Lucas totally changed personalities and decided to go back on the posiktive changes ESB introduced. Could it be because the 2nd film made significantly less money than the first film and Lucas was being greedy and just wanted to give audiences a more simpler film he felt would be more commercially succesful. We'll probably never know.

You know to this day I still dream in my head often about the third SW film that could have been. An ROTJ with the same emotional complextiy of the 2nd film.

Man what a finale that could have been!

[Ollie 1,059]

That was actually a mistake...some Ewok actor tripped while the camera was still on.

LOL

Honestly to this day I still have no idea what happened to Lucas in between ESB and ROTJ. Its like Lucas totally changed personalities and decided to go back on the posiktive changes ESB introduced. Could it be because the 2nd film made significantly less money than the first film and Lucas was being greedy and just wanted to give audiences a more simpler film he felt would be more commercially succesful. We'll probably never know.

I don't think the box office had much to do with it. Empire's totals didn't start to fall off the pace of Star Wars until after the summer and generally sequels don't out gross the original.

I think Lucas felt he was losing some creative control, hence the departure of Kurtz and the hiring of Marquand to direct. Plus he wanted to end it on a happy note. I think Empire was too dark for his liking.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

From what I've heard, the success of Raiders of the Lost Ark made him decide he wanted to shift the emphasis towards action and popcorn fun for Ep. 6. Git.

[Morlock 11]

But at least then he could still make a good action and popcorn fun movie (IMO), now he couldn't even do that.

[A24 4,347]

But it only lasted so long. After Raiders the Indy series too were infested with unwanted "Lucassities", like annoying sidekicks. Surely, there must be a top 10 where 'Jar Jar' and 'Short Round' made the list.

----------------

Alex Cremers - seeing things clearly.

[Lurker 5]

From what I've heard, the success of Raiders of the Lost Ark made him decide he wanted to shift the emphasis towards action and popcorn fun for Ep. 6. Git.

That is correct.

Neil

[Rogue_Leader 2]

But at least then he could still make a good action and popcorn fun movie (IMO), now he couldn't even do that.

EXACTLY!

This guy's talent has vanished into thin air like the Death Stars.

[Morlock 11]

But it only lasted so long. After Raiders the Indy series too were infested with unwanted "Lucassities", like annoying sidekicks. Surely, there must be a top 10 where 'Jar Jar' and 'Short Round' made the list.

----------------

Alex Cremers - seeing things clearly.

You need new glasses.

[A24 4,347]

You have fond memories of TOD and TLC from your childhood. You weren't seeing clear then and you aren't seeing clear now. The inner child that is still in you makes you blind for certain specific things and forgives the Lucassities that were unmistakably made. Heck, you hardly notice the differences between 1, 2, 3. Now who needs a new prescription?

---------------

Alex cremers - connoisseur between wrong and wright.

[Morlock 11]

It's called "snob", not connoisseur.

I have fond memories of TLC from my childhood (I wasn't crazy about TOD), and now I see why both movies are great all the more clearly.

[Jeshopk 8]

Quote:  

Honestly to this day I still have no idea what happened to Lucas in between ESB and ROTJ. Its like Lucas totally changed personalities and decided to go back on the posiktive changes ESB introduced.

After reading in depth about the production of ESB and ROTJ, lucas had more control on ESB.

In ESB, he wrote the nearly final version of the script alone. Kasdan made minor changes.

In ROTJ, lucas wrote the story and the details, but not as much of the script. Kasdan says he had more freedom because Lucas gave him a rougher draft.

Also, keep in mind, Lucas wanted Irvin Kirschner back, but Kirschner didn't want to do another big sci-fi spectacle at the time. So Lucas had to find someone else.

Between ESB and ROTJ, ESB contained more of Lucas' intentions.

[Jeshopk 8]

You have fond memories of TOD and TLC from your childhood. You weren't seeing clear then and you aren't seeing clear now. The inner child that is still in you makes you blind for certain specific things and forgives the Lucassities that were unmistakably made. Heck, you hardly notice the differences between 1, 2, 3. Now who needs a new prescription?

Interesting POV. The reason people react differently to entertainment is because they want different things out of it. Or they are open minded to a broader range of sensibilities. I was, and still am, open-minded to the inclusion of corny jokes in otherwise serious adventure movies. That's why Temple of Doom puts a smile on my face and thrills at the same time.

[Ollie 1,059]

I thought Lucas didn't want Kirschner back.

[IrishCal24 0]

The Ewoks, they should have been vicious looking creatures that would make Chewie look like a shaggy dog standing erect.

Yes, why couldn't they be as frightening as those walking, talking trees in LOTR!?

By the way, you guys do see the irony of this entire thread, right?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

By the way, you guys do see the irony of this entire thread, right?

Good point.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, why couldn't they be as frightening as those walking, talking trees in LOTR!?  

There are no talking trees in The Lord Of The Rings!

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

I actually have NO problem whatsoever with the Emperor, he's not just a cackling villain, although he does that too.  Palpy clearly loves being evil and I love the way he taunts Luke... and Vader.  Does anyone not love the final duel, Luke getting fried, Vader tossing Palpy sequences?  Not to mention the music to go with it?  I've always said that the best thing about ROTJ was the Luke/Vader/Emperor scenes.  They are among the best scenes in the trilogy, IMHO.

Yep. Although SW may be better overall and Empire is my favorite overall, I agree that the Emperor/Luke/Vader scenes are the best in the entire Star wars series to date, and although I hope something might surpass it, it looks unlikely.

About the Imperials not checking in on the Shuttle with the Rebels: The Emperor (and Vader) knew that the rebels were there and/or coming, and set a trap for them when they made their move, remember?

About Vader's redemption: He did save Luke, kill the Emperor (the evil ruler of the Universe and the true evil villian, something that most forget because he was almost unmentioned, unnoticed and insignificant in SW and ESB) and bring balance to the force. He was under Palpatine's spell, and he killed as many baddies (Imperials) as rebels. In fact, I don't remember him killing all that many "good guys". The Death Star/TIE Fighter battle at the end of SW? Obi-Wan? I think the likelyhood that most of his killing takes place in E3, and I don't believe he does any Hitler-esque mass-exterminations either). At the end, he was sorry for what he had done and did the greatest thing... kill the Emperor. Remember, before he jumped in, Luke was going to die and who else could have stopped him? I like the idea of Anakin's redemption. Agreed that Vader did do many horrific things and it isn't the best message for anybody, but in the end, he saved the Universe and it makes the point that everyone can be redeemed if they are truly repentant.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Its too bad Lucas didn't stick with his original concept to make the planet that ROTJ's finale was set on a Wookie planet.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

I second that.

I remember when I was 9 years old at the time and all the girls in school loved the ewoks. In fact, it was the ONLY thing they liked about Star Wars! LOL!

[Ollie 1,059]

Yub Yub!!!!!!

[Rogue_Leader 2]

The whole fact that the Ewoks took out stormtroopers with blasters, armor and walkers made it even more ridiculous.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

Agreed. Even when I was a 9 year old, the one thing that truly bothered me about any Star Wars movie was seeing tiny teddy bears take out the Stormtroopers and Biker Scouts with all that bulky armor on. If the armor can't even deflect a rock or a stick, let alone stop a laser blast, then why on earth would they wear it? It just makes them clumsy and slow!

[KarmBee 0]

It just makes them clumsy and slow!

Just like any other cop, except Stormtroopers look cool and they don't right you tickets, they just blast you.

[Lurker 5]

Stormtroopers look cool and they don't right you tickets, they just blast you.

And do you think that's write?

Neil

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Stormtroopers look cool and they don't right you tickets, they just blast you.

And do you think that's write?

Neil

What even more pathetic is they can;t even blast stuff with accuracy.

At least not when your a lead character.

[Henry B 50]

Well, you gotta credit the stormtroopers with shooting Leia.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Well, you gotta credit the stormtroopers with shooting Leia.

Winging on the shoulder?

MY GOD! What accuracy!

I think they treated that wound with a friggin band aid.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

Another wild and kinda out there scenerio that would have worked before Lucas made the prequels is that Anakin himself is the other and still alive. Vader has lied to Luke to lure him to the Dark Side, Obi-Wan was telling the truth but only Yoda knew that Anakin survived Vader's attack and has been in hiding until his son was ready to join him and overthrow the Emperor.  

Of course that's all out the window since Lucas made the Prequels.

A friend of mine also said this to me once. It's not that "out there" and would make for a far better resolution to the series.

Neil

Your opinions, guys. AlthoughI think that those may be some interesting and creative ideas, I think that the series concluded perfectly.

I also think that the Special Edition's ending was far more fitting (the only drastic change made to the SE's that was benificial, IMO).

My biggest problem with the father-son-sister things is that Luke and Leia look nothing alike and Leia never showed any latent force powers (other than hearing Luke and going back for him at the end of Empire).

Still dont understand why the whole speeder bike chase wasn't scored.  

I mean that scene BEGS for some awesome action music.  

A schertzo perhaps?

I always felt it needed scorin too. It works well on it's own, but some action music would have been awesome to listen to, even if unused and just in an album release.

In my homemade hybrid of ROTJ 2 CDR set, I place "The Forest Battle" in the Speeder Bike Chase's place. I one time synched it up and the big splash ending to that concert track works very well with Luke's defeat of the Biker scout.

[Henry B 50]

My biggest problem with the father-son-sister things is that Luke and Leia look nothing alike and Leia never showed any latent force powers (other than hearing Luke and going back for him at the end of Empire).

(other than hearing Luke and going back for him at the end of Empire).

hearing Luke and going back for him at the end of Empire

That is a latent Force power!

Luke and Leia look nothing alike

Come now, that's just a cosmetic inconsistency. No biggie!

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

People's problems with ROTJ could have possibly been helped if George had taken a Rowling-like approach to the series and plotted out main ideas through the whole saga. That way everything would fit together nicer, and there could be hints and clues along the way, rather than him suddenly deciding to relate the widespread inhabitants of the galaxy together more and more with each installment.

Ray Barnsbury