ROTJ DVD Edition...I've seen the ending

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

And ESB is very different to its predecessor. But in a good way. Way better than RotJ. Holy trilogy or not, Jedi still stinks.

[Lurker 5]

The sad thing is many people don't even notice that there IS a difference between SW, TESB AND ROTJ. They usually go like: "Huh!? What do you mean? The effects in ROTJ are far better than those of SW or TESB". They couldn't give a rats ass about your "narrative".

That's not my problem.

Neil

[Mr.B 0]

This would all be so much easier if Return of the Jedi wasn't such a poorly constructed, dumb film.

I couldn't disagree more.

Holy trilogy or not, Jedi still stinks.

In your opinion, of course.

The sad thing is many people don't even notice that there IS a difference between SW, TESB AND ROTJ. They usually go like: "Huh!? What do you mean? The effects in ROTJ are far better than those of SW or TESB". They couldn't give a rats ass about your "narrative".

The sad thing is that many people (especially those who aren't old enough to remember the reaction to the film when it was released) state their opinion as a fact, insulting those who like the film (as you just did in your post), and ignoring that there is intelligent people (I would say millions of them) who consider Return of the Jedi as the best Star Wars movie, and not only effects-wise.

Mr.B - Who thinks that Return of the Jedi is a brilliant film, and its second half a masterpiece, narratively speaking.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I would say millions of them

maybe those millions are wrong,

but if you like the film, enjoy, no harm in that.

[A24 4,345]

I'm sorry to inform you but my opinions about ROTJ are very much factual (since it's being supported by general critics and movie fans all over the world), and I was old enough to remember the public response when this film was released in 1983. For the very first time the fan base was seriously divided. I'm afraid I remember it all too well.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr.B 0]

I would say millions of them

maybe those millions are wrong

Opinions aren't right or wrong. You know that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I didn't know they spelled it 'wonderfull' in Spain.

Neither did I

You lack of knowledge regarding your native tongue is...disturbing.

El señor, usted tiene las orejas de un asno y el olor de una cabra.

[Mr.B 0]

I'm sorry to inform you but my opinions about ROTJ are very much factual (since it's being supported by general critics and movie fans all over the world)

The fact that they are supported by some critics and fans (even if it was a majority, which at least wasn't the case in 1983) doesn't make your opinions (or anyone's) factual.

and I was old enough to remember the public response when this film was released in 1983. For the very first time the fan base was seriously divided. I'm afraid I remember it all too well.

I don't know your age, but I was 18 years old when the movie was released, and I do remember very well that things weren't as you say. But if believing that makes you happier, good for you.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I remember it well too Mr. B, its got great reviews, fans were lined up around the block. It made tons of money. I think its a flawed film but certainly an enjoyable film. As you know I have a serious problem with the Vader redemption thing, and that one horrible sequence when Luke reveals he and Leia are sibling, as scene I might add that will seem even more akward after Lucas finishes Star Wars Rots.

[Jeshopk 8]

So why not show us a few pics!?

I'd like to see the new ANH Jabba if anybody has one.

These changes are kind of ok. I am disappointed that they didn't ask John Williams to do new ending music for ROTJ. One that is grand and fits with the rest of the score.

[Mr.B 0]

I remember it well too Mr. B, its got great reviews, fans were lined up around the block. It made tons of money. I think its a flawed film but certainly an enjoyable film.  As you know I have a serious problem with the Vader redemption thing, and that one horrible sequence when Luke reveals he and Leia are sibling, as scene I might add that will seem even more akward after Lucas finishes Star Wars Rots.

Now that's an intelligent reply.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

ROTJ is a wonderfull and entertaining film.

I love it dear to my heart.

But it's a very flawed piece of film making, as a stand alone film, part 3 of a trilogy and probably as part 6 of a saga.

[A24 4,345]

The fact that they are supported by some critics and fans (even if it was a majority, which at least wasn't the case in 1983) doesn't make your opinions (or anyone's) factual.

I know opinions are just opinions but in most cases I truly believe general critical acclaim. Otherwise a movie like Van Helsing would be the best movie ever made and my home movie would be a serious contender for a movie like Citizen Kane.

I don't know your age, but I was 18 years old when the movie was released, and I do remember very well that things weren't as you say. But if believing that makes you happier, good for you.

The fact that people like me exist (too bad for you) makes me not a liar.

[A24 4,345]

Now that's an intelligent reply.

You find it intelligent because Joe said what you like to hear. You recognize yourself in his words.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[KarmBee 0]

Mr.B wrote:

Now that's an intelligent reply.

You find it intelligent because Joe said what you like to hear. You recognize yourself in his words.  

Using the old Jedi mind trick, eh?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

So why not show us a few pics!?

I'd like to see the new ANH Jabba if anybody has one.

Go here.

[A24 4,345]

Mr.B wrote:

Now that's an intelligent reply.

You find it intelligent because Joe said what you like to hear. You recognize yourself in his words.  

Using the old Jedi mind trick, eh?

Yes, I waved with my hand too.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Alex thinks I am incapable of an intelligent reply, cause I like Kiddie movies.

[Mr.B 0]

I know opinions are just opinions but in most cases I truly believe general critical acclaim.

That's your problem. Critics change their mind every few years. Maybe you should pay more attention to your own opinion.

The fact that people like me exist (too bad for you) makes me not a liar.

Too bad for me? Now that's a ridiculous assumption LOL. And who's the liar? You? Me? Joe? We all believe what we say, don't we?

Now that's an intelligent reply.

You find it intelligent because Joe said what you like to hear. You recognize yourself in his words.

Joe said what I like to hear? Alex, it was intelligent because he didn't mix the facts with his opinion (an opinion that I don't share). I thought you were more intelligent... :roll:

[Henry B 50]

You see, if you tought that was laugable than quite frankly so is the original ending with Sebastian (?). Cause HIS ghost looks quite normal to me, with no wires or a pale white skin or something. He doesn't look like Vader without the suit, much more like a younger and less distorted Anakin. And why was he wearing Jedi clothes all of a sudden. Because you see a younger Jedi, that's why....so this is even the case in the original version.  

Did you think that was crap too?

[A24 4,345]

I know opinions are just opinions but in most cases I truly believe general critical acclaim.

That's your problem. Critics change their mind every few years. Maybe you should pay more attention to your own opinion.

My problem? It's not a problem. Although not always but I happen to share the same taste for movies with most of them. What's so problematic about that?

Critics change their minds every few years, you say? Really? About what movies? Come on, tell me what movies the critics change their mind about. Every movie? A few movies only? Always the same movies? Please, I wanna know how much truth there is in these words.

I only go by my own opinion and my opinion only. My opinion happens to be quite similar to the general consensus of the critics. When did I claim that I first read the critics and then form an opinion?

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr.B 0]

My problem? It's not a problem. Although not always but I happen to share the same taste for movies with most of them. What's so problematic about that?  .

What I mean is that if you want to believe 'general critical acclaim', that's your choice. But 'general critical acclaim' changes every few years. Regarding lots of movies. There are hundreds of so-called 'classics' that become 'flawed films' in less than a decade. And viceversa.

Critics change their minds every few years, you say? Really? About what movies? Come on, tell me what movies the critics change their mind about. Every movie? A few movies only? Always the same movies? Please, I wanna know how much truth there is in these words..

All the truth. You just have to read their 'best movie' lists from past decades, and compare them to the current ones (excluding the new movies, of course). I'm not making this up, Alex. And I'm surprised (well, maybe not that surprised at this point) that you didn't know.

I only go by my own opinion and my opinion only.

Excellent.

When did I claim that I first read the critics and then form an opinion?

Never. When did I imply that you claimed that?

[A24 4,345]

There aren't any hundreds of classics per decade, man. This is not making much sense anymore. See you in another post. It was fun while it lasted.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr.B 0]

There aren't any hundreds of classics per decade, man.

That's not what I said, Alex LOL

This is not making much sense anymore.

I agree Alex ("my opinions are very much factual") Cremers, I agree... :roll:

It was fun while it lasted.

You insulting those who disagree with you wasn't fun at all.

Bye.

[TheMaulMan 0]

Uh-oh...the great Jedi debate. I got into this really hot and heavy many years ago in the Star Wars newsgroups. Count me as a Jedi lover. Yeah, I see what the detractors are saying, but even though I think it's the least perfect of the OT, it is my personal favorite. I love the movie-within-a-movie Jabba sequence, but most of all, I adore the film from Vader's first conversation with Luke to the end. The three-prong ending never fails to engage me. "Into the Trap?" My God that is incredible! What a masterful start to the final battle of the Star Wars saga. I love Williams' score for Jedi.

[A24 4,345]

The score is great.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

That is a VERY weak explanation dude.  

So because his soul was restored it suddenly loses it age?  

That is quite frankly the most laughable crap I have ever read. It makes the ending to A.I. seem downright logical.

I think it makes sense, as there never was an old Anakin Skywalker. I hate the idea, I would change it for the world, but it does make sense.

Morlock- who bets William thinks A.I. has a happy ending

What do you mean there never was an old Anakin Skywalker? Then who the hell was that guy who Luke restored? The friggin Michellen Man??

Oh and A.I.'s ending is definitely not a happy one. Any ending that sucks that bad can never be happy.

[A24 4,345]

Uh-oh...the great Jedi debate.

Yes, ask yourself, why are there so many debates about the third film?

Answer:

For the very first time the fan base was seriously divided. I'm afraid I remember it all too well.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I cannot even imagine the torment of listening to the whole commentary of this movie from Lucas.

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

hmm... so what is Vader actually then? Pure Dark Side force with traces of Anakin's childhood ideals?

I don't know, maybe.

But then again, what IS the Force anyway? The entire saga consists of pretty loose material...I guess everyone can fill in the blanks, including the characters in the movies, like in real life....and it didn't stop the original films of becoming classics.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I saw the movie a few days ago, and read the duel-redemption parts of the novel.

I think is it as moving as Han Frozen in Carbonite or I am you father.

And i dont think Vader redeption was cliched. Why many people do not like it? Becasue nobody expected that 8O.

El señor, usted tiene las orejas de un asno y el olor de una cabra.

Speaking again in klingon, huh?

'El' does not belong there. The rest miraculously is correct

Lucas, que piensa que Esteban tiene un wonderfull :? sentido del humor.

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

This would all be so much easier if Return of the Jedi wasn't such a poorly constructed, dumb film.  The whole redemption thing seems so tacked on.  It was never a part of Star Wars or Empire and it's clear that Lucas wanted to wrap this whole thing up as quickly as possible.  That is why Jedi is such a weak film from a narrative standpoint.  It's dumb ending only goes to show how little thought went into this.

The sad thing is many people don't even notice that there IS a difference between SW, TESB AND ROTJ. They usually go like: "Huh!? What do you mean? The effects in ROTJ are far better than those of SW or TESB". They couldn't give a rats ass about your "narrative".

I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you two. I can understand what's bothering you. I never cared much for that redemption thing either, though the idea that an evil person is the cause for the destruction of evil is great.

Still I wouldn't call ROTJ a badly constructed movie. If you would look at the ehm 'layout', then I would have to say it's better for these kind of movies than ANH. ANH is very linear, in TESB and ROTJ you go all over the galaxy to search for answers, which turn out are to be found in you....which is better suited for movies such as this, to give it a grand scaling, to show the vastness of the cosmos and the scale of all the problems et cetera et cetera. A linear line doesn't give it much room for complexity, apart from character development of course. And why else call it Star Wars?

ANH deals more about the characters, which is great of course...it's a great beginning for a larger whole. It makes you root for the characters, give you a taste of what's to come really.

At some of the outcomes, I would have to agree with you, but to me the overall story is fine. You are mainly talking about (granted key) moments in the story, which makes it a flawed film perhaps but that still doesn't make it necessarily a bad one. Even a flawed film can be great to watch, if you look passed the flaws. And that can't be said for so many other movies of the genre.

Now decades of watching science fiction, action, fantasy, and adventure movies have gone by. And it has not been kind to such genres....ROTJ seems to get better and better with every decade passing by and with every gastly flick made.

[fommes 153]

Lucas, que piensa que Esteban tiene un wonderfull  :? sentido del humor.

We should give up. The man doesn't take a hint.

without meaningfull dialoque

Perhaps this is a Dutch phenomenon.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I'll bet many years from now Lucas will spend his time wandering around the Skywalker Ranch in a dark cloak with the entire staff living in constant fear of him.

[Jeshopk 8]

Except for the crappy "Jedi Rocks" "special" edition scene, and also the new "victory Celebration" music, I love Return of the Jedi, movie, story and score.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Did Williams compose and conduct the SE "Victory Celebration"? It's something I was never sure of.

[Henry B 50]

Yes, he did compose "Victory Celebration." He conducted the orchestra for both "Victory Celebration" and "Jedi Rocks," though that cue was written by Jerry Hey.

Except for the crappy "Jedi Rocks" "special" edition scene, and also the new "victory Celebration" music, I love Return of the Jedi, movie, story and score.

Do you prefer "Ewok Celebration"? :?

[Jeshopk 8]

I do prefer the Ewok Celebration. It works as source music. Victory Celebration works neither as source or score, because it satisfies on neither level.

Ewok Celebration sounds like Ewoks are playing it haphazardly, while Victory celebration sounds like George Lucas' california, hippie, nature store, World music. I can smell the incense now. The orchestra and chorus build up is grander in the original.

My dream would be if a new cue were composed that was just underscore, not source music. We would hear the ewok celebration music bleed through a little only when we see the endor scenes at the beginning of the finale, then the score takes over until the end credits. The new victory celebration theme would be completely discarded.

[John Crichton 4]

You nailed it, Jesse.

K.M. and I were saying the same thing not too long ago. I doubt if it would happen, but it'd be nice. And sooooo good to listen to!

[Jay 37,370]

I also think that would be the best way to end the saga.

[Henry B 50]

I like "Victory Celebration," and would prefer that the scene not be rescored again, though I can't really provide a reason why...guess it's pure opinion.

[Eplicon 53]

"Victory Celebration" didn't bother me that much; it fit better within the context of the new ending. At the time I described the piece as sounding more at home for a Coke or AT&T commercial -- all that sharing a Coke with someone, reaching out and touching somebody, in a worldly theme sort of way. My opinion still hasn't changed on it, but I like it anyway.

[s.mess 0]

I still don't get it, thougth. If Anakin was redeemed before death = good, I don't understand why he would look young as a ghost. When OBI wan and Yoda died in a "good" state, they didn't revert to a young appearance. George somehow seems to gloss over the fact that Anakin did exist as an old man "good" Jedi (albeit briefly) just like OBi and Yoda. The other thing that bothers me about the ghost thing to begin with is that I always understood it to be something that only a few Jedi knew how to do and Vader seemed surprised when OBI did it in ANH (stepping on the cape in confustion, etc). So when did he learn it??. Makes no sense.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Yes, once again, South Park couldn't have been more right.

Free Hat!

- Marc,

[Henry B 50]

I still don't get it, thougth. If Anakin was redeemed before death = good, I don't understand why he would look young as a ghost. When OBI wan and Yoda died in a "good" state, they didn't revert to a young appearance. George somehow seems to gloss over the fact that Anakin did exist as an old man "good" Jedi (albeit briefly) just like OBi and Yoda.

Well, technically Anakin should have appeared as just a head and a left arm with horrible scarring, but that wouldn't have made for good cinema.

[Lurker 5]

Well, technically Anakin should have appeared as just a head and a left arm with horrible scarring, but that wouldn't have made for good cinema.

So then it would have fit right in with the rest of ROTJ.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Sorry, a person's soul does not have anything to do with his physical wounds. Im not sayng Hayden is right, though.

[s.mess 0]

Well, I can accept a "nice" looking Old Anakin easier than I can accept a young Anakin next to an old Obi Wan and Yoda. The only other possible scenario would be to make all 3 of them young, but this wouldn't make sense unless they were to re-shoot all of Guiness's parts with Ewen every time the Obi Wan Ghost makes an appearance (which would be stupid, in my opinion). Of the 3 options, I think the original one works best.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

It's all good. I'll still get it. I just liken them to "revised" editions.

Neil or Steef? Contact me on those laserdisc thingees you have. 8O

[Rogue_Leader 2]

You know I can only imagine the nasty surprise alot of casual SW fans are going to get when they pop these DVDs in without prior knowledge of all the changes. 8O