"Films That Are Better Than Their Scores"

[RenOldman 0]

Scott Bettencourt from FSM posed this question on last week's (3/18/05) Filmscore Friday:

What films are better than the film score itself?

Here is the full paragraph from which the question was taken:

"One of film music fans' favorite topics is often Scores That Are Better Than the Movies They Were Written For (such as at least 90 percent of Jerry Goldsmith's career), but what about the opposite -- Films That Are Better Than Their Scores -- specifically, scores by top composers (crappy composers writing music that isn't as good as the movie is no novelty)? Two come to mind -- not at all bad scores, but nevertheless scores that (in my opinion, obviously) aren't as fresh or wholly successful as the films (though still sufficiently effective in context). My first two choices are Jerry Goldsmith's L.A. Confidential and John Barry's Out of Africa (and mind you, these are two of my absolute favorite composers). Any other ideas?"

And the link:

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2...core_Friday.asp

[David Coscina 3]

Ridley Scott's Gladiator and Ed Zwick's Last Samurai. No, this isn't a Zimmer-bash. Well, not a conscious one.

Wolfgang Peterson's Troy.

Twilight Samurai

hmmm, this is hard to think of since my favorite films always have great music in them,,,

[RenOldman 0]

Ridley Scott's Gladiator and Ed Zwick's Last Samurai.  No, this isn't a Zimmer-bash.  Well, not a conscious one.

Do you feel that the music itself is out of place?

Meaning that the music itself doesn't represent the music from that period.

Of course I mean synths and whatnot that don't make any sense or a Electronic Score for a movie about ancient times (ie. Scorpion King).

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Most of Goldsmith's.

EDIT: I screwed up. I thought the title of the thread was "Scores that are better than their movies", so I obviously went with Goldsmith. Now, for the opposite, somebody would have to mention Traffic, or some Kubrick films.

[John McClane 1]

"Films That Are Better Than Their Scores"

Man...I'm surprised no one said Pirates of the Carribean yet...

[John Crichton 4]

"Man...I'm surprised no one said Pirates of the Carribean yet...

LOL And I was going to mention that right before I saw your post.

I enjoy just about everything from Pirates but the score. I'll second Gladiator too, although the score has its moments.

[Lurker 5]

GoldenEye

Neil

[Morn 8]

Troy definately, worst horner score ever.

[nightscape94 965]

Do you know how many movies are better then the scores? A lot...though there are many movies that are dependant on music to work (i.e. some of Hitchcock's films). It's hard to list them all, but if you take the score out of "The Godfather", there wouldn't be a difference...

Tim

[RenOldman 0]

GoldenEye

Neil

Is this more because it is in a different style than the other Bond scores? Or is it because it really is bad?

Another question:

Do you like anything by Eric Serra?

I thought the score to Leon (aka The Professional) was good.

[RenOldman 0]

 It's hard to list them all, but if you take the score out of "The Godfather", there wouldn't be a difference...

Tim

The score for "The Godfather" movies is not meant to be a standalone listen though. It is meant to get the watcher into the feeling of the movie. It does that for me. It deals more with emotions of the viewer than the onscreen action.

[nightscape94 965]

Whether or not it is meant as a standalone is not the topic. If anything, your argument only strengthens mine...

It was nominated for an Academy Award, though later withdrawn because he reused some of his "Fortunella" score from '58.

Tim

[RenOldman 0]

Whether or not it is meant as a standalone is not the topic.  If anything, your argument only strengthens mine...

It was nominated for an Academy Award, though later withdrawn because he reused some of his "Fortunella" score from '58.

Tim

What I said is that it is serviceable within the film and serves a purpose.

Are the films better than the score: Yes.

But you say they do not serve a purpose; which is were I disagree with you.

[nightscape94 965]

I did not say it didn't serve a purpose. It brings you more into an authentic Italian ethnicity. I'm only saying that if you remove it from the film, you can still watch it without being aware that it's missing.

Tim

[RenOldman 0]

Troy definately, worst horner score ever.

Errrrrr.........

I did not want to make another Horner Bashing thread.

For the record I have not heard it; I just know that someone will bring up similarities to other scores or other Classical works.

I find his scores usually work only with the movie. Or course there are exceptions but most of it adds to the movie and does not work out of it.

Or course many film score fans do not have the abiltiy to listen to the (usually) 70+min album at one time;especially when some of it can be cut to make a more enjoyable listen.

[nightscape94 965]

I think people are still upset about Yared getting the shaft with his infinitely better and more interesting score for Troy.

Tim

[RenOldman 0]

I did not say it didn't serve a purpose.  It brings you more into an authentic Italian ethnicity.  I'm only saying that if you remove it from the film, you can still watch it without being aware that it's missing.  

Tim

I believe that some scenes within the movie need the score. They do not depend on it but like you say it creates the feeling needed. That being said the score itself COULD have been better but it works.

It is not on the same level as the movie but it works.

Take out many Goldsmith scores from the movies and it severly punishes the "quality" of the film. This is why when people say that Goldsmith does not write as good as he used to. I mean how many different ways can he score a chase or anything else?

Therefore the film score works within the movie but the listening experience from the film is deteroirated or diminished.

This is the problem with older Goldsmith fans they say the music is crap but some of the time the music itself works within the film and therefore serves its purpose. The pleasure derived from listening to the disc should be a bonus. But some want that pleasure and do not care about the infilm experience. And for those that want a good example of listen to almost everything that John Ottman has done (or any new composer, for that matter, has done) and you will probably realize it does not work outside the film.

I blame the studios and the directors as they force their opinion on the music. But it is also the blame of the composer. Today I listen to most "composers" for film and realise that if I get a piece of music longer than 3 mins. I should consider myself lucky.

Anyways, what films are noticeably better than their scores.

[RenOldman 0]

I think people are still upset about Yared getting the shaft with his infinitely better and more interesting score for Troy.

Tim

That's true. It just opens itself to the bashing because of this and its Horner........Man; James Horner.

I think people just bash it because it is Horner. Not just because Yared's score was not used. It became a double edged sword.

I mean Yared's probably is a better standalone listen than Horners is and therefore most film score fans will say it is better.

[Lurker 5]

GoldenEye

Neil

Is this more because it is in a different style than the other Bond scores? Or is it because it really is bad?

It doesn't work in the film, it's primary purpose.

Do you like anything by Eric Serra?

That question is irrelevant.

Neil

[Morn 8]

I believe that the best film composers will write such good music that it will work perfectly as music away from the film. Some composers simply aren't good enough to both supprt the film perfectly and make good music.

[Saxbabe 28]

There is actually another valid reason for Horner Troy criticism...it is spelled p-l-a-g-a-r-i-s-m.

David Arnold's Stargate and Shostakovich's 5th Symphony each have complete statements almost cut-and-pasted from them in Troy.

This disappoints me greatly with Horner, he's capable of so much better. Highly unecessary. And having a tight schedule to rescore something does NOT excuse this obvious copying.

It's funny because I have this problem over and over with Horner...I put on something for a first listen, I'm enjoying the score, and then WHAM a big rip of another composer or himself, and I think, "Wha-...did I really just hear that? No...no...that's just not right....and it was going so well..."

If I had never heard the above mentioned works, it would have been fine for me. Horner's Troy could be actually quite good, and same with other scores of his, if he could keep his hands off other's people work.

And I don't take into account Yared's Troy here, this solely has to do with Horner. Though I do think Yared's Troy was an excellent score, a great effort, surrounded by unfortunate controversy.

Unfair to Yared, but also quite unfair to Horner, because it was a tough spot to be in and his score is somehow "tainted" (much like the Goldsmith/Tyler Timeline situation).

Greta

[David Coscina 3]

Hey, Horner's Troy isn't awful- please don't misinterpret that. For 2 weeks, he hit all of the emotional spots and wrote some decent music. But I think the film deserved better than a 2 week score, and it HAD a better score that was unfortunately axed by comments from a tone deaf focus group- and a chicken shit producer who didn't have the foresight or balls to stick with Yared's superior score.

As for Zimmer, Last Samurai is dreadful. Being a big fan of real Japanese composers like Akira Ifukube, Fumio Hayasaka, and Toru Takemitsu, Zimmer's score is an atrocity and there are points where he suffocates the scene with his wall of sound synths and heavy-handed approach. I wish HORNER had scored that film because he at least is a more sensitive dramatist and an infinitely better orchestral composer- hands down, no contest. And I'm not a huge Horner fan either but I can objectively say he does have the chops/skill.

Example- the scene where Cruise refuses to give up his bokken (wooden sword) to Ujio- and summarily gets punished with repeateded beatings. No music would have been ideal but oh no, let's bring in the synths and moving music to emphasize Algren (Cruise) and his obstinance. That was a great scene on paper (I read the screenplay before seeing the film) but any of the conflict in the scene is diluted by Zimmer's manipulative overwrought music.

[bondo 33]

And Horner doesn't write 'manipulative overwrought' music??

Just be glad we didn't get a constant repitition of the 4-note danger theme played ad naurseum by (insert stereotypical Japanese instrument here) since Horner didn't write it

[Morn 8]

Horner's troy score is terrible music, I can't stand those bad horn lines during the parades and such, it's quite unpleasant in the movie.

[Saxbabe 28]

Some of Horner's music is passable despite the "quotes", he can write great scores when he wants to (TWOK, Sneakers, Krull, etc), and is actually a fine composer underneath the irksome habits.

It's because he is talented that it bothers me when he relies on crutches. If he wasn't any good, and the whole score was rubbish...I wouldn't give a toss. Derivative music isn't necessarily bad music, it can still be enjoyable, I count several such scores (including Horner) in my guilty pleasures.

Zimmer...though he has had some scores I liked in his earlier career, his later stuff doesn't work for me. This week I caught Matchstick Men (GREAT film, Nick Cage and Sam Rockwell) and there wasn't much going on, or it didn't make any impression. Also saw Something's Gotta Give (another great film) and I remember it had a sort of French theme going on, the only memorable bit there were a couple of songs though.

Greta

[A24 4,346]

The film Gladiator could've been better if someone had written less schmaltzy music for it. I couldn't believe my ears the first time in the theatre.

About The Last Samurai, the film and score deserved each other. I felt both treated me like I was a simpleton. Bah!

Mystic River. Clint shoudn't give up his day job yet.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[RenOldman 0]

GoldenEye

Neil

Is this more because it is in a different style than the other Bond scores? Or is it because it really is bad?

It doesn't work in the film, it's primary purpose.

Do you like anything by Eric Serra?

That question is irrelevant.

Neil

The question is irrelevant to the original question.

What I mean is do you not like his style? If you do not like his style it may sway your answer.

So basically what I asked was irrelevant but I am saying you could be biased from the get-go.

I asked because many, many people do not like his style to begin with.

Anyways, why did Serra do GoldenEye to begin with?

[Lurker 5]

Anyways, why did Serra do GoldenEye to begin with?

He was asked to.

Neil

[RenOldman 0]

Anyways, why did Serra do GoldenEye to begin with?

He was asked to.

Neil

Alright, than who requested him? The director? One of the producers?

Or is it unknown who wanted him?

[Greg1138 3]

I'm going to add The Truman Show - IMHO the score was mainly what gave the movie a childish slant, which was needless....

[krosstj 0]

All Three Lord of the Rings movies. I thought the scores were subpar and not fitting of the film.

[batmanand 0]

Goldeneye definitely. Pirates of the Carribean definitely.

American beauty. Apart from the first and last tracks, the CD is unlistenable, and it just doesnt work IMO in the film.

Most films by John Carpenter (he should just give up the whole scoring game).

The Rock. The music just gets in the way.

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

I'm going to add The Truman Show - IMHO the score was mainly what gave the movie a childish slant, which was needless....

To this, I would add ALL of Peter Weir's films. Although, the encouraging thing is that it seems like the original scores to his films are getting more and more relevant. The classical music's always been appropriate, but the original stuff that Jarre usually wrote stuck out like a sore thumb. Truman Show is an improvement compared to Gallipoli. Gallipoli sounds like it could've been permutated into the score for Tron. AND IT'S A FILM ABOUT WWI!! If Weir wanted electronic and classical, he should've talked to Jerry, not Jarre. I don't really think you can knock Weir's use of classical. Gorecki's 3rd at the end of Fearless and Williams' "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" at the end of Master and Commander were excellent. Fine examples of how classical music should be used.

[MrScratch 294]

Saving Private Ryan, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, The Sixth Sense, Silence of the Lambs

Jeff

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

Saving Private Ryan

I'm sorry, but...what?

[John McClane 1]

OMG Jeff...Saving Private Ryan and The Sixth Sense!!! I understand that tastes are different, but...damn!!

I don't think The Sixth Sense (the movie) is a masterpiece, but the score isn't bad at all, it's one of the best JNH's scores IMO.

I'm sure you put SPR because it's a little bit short, not because it's a bad score. It's a good score for a great movie.

Mirko - who think Pirates of the Caribbean (the score) is thousands times worst than Saving Private Ryan.

[Lurker 5]

It's a good score for a great movie.

Therefore the film is better than the score. Thanks for proving Jeff's point and sticking to the topic!

Neil

[krosstj 0]

My Indiana Jones claymation short film is a better movie then the score I wrote for it.

[Justin 2]

I could easily argue for something like Empire or Star Trek II. Nothing against the (freaking awesome) scores it's just the films are as good if not better. I suppose it's a matter of balance really...

Justin

[A24 4,346]

Silence of the Lambs

That's a bit of an odd choice.

[Justin 2]

The Terminator and T2.

Although I don't really hate Fidel's scores. (His theme is better than the films.)

Justin

[RenOldman 0]

It's a good score for a great movie.

Therefore the film is better than the score. Thanks for proving Jeff's point and sticking to the topic!

Neil

Are you implying that I attempted to deride my own topic???

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

What's not to like about SPR's score? Less is more.

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

Weir's film's scores were fine.

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

Weir's film's scores were fine.

Please elaborate. (Otherwise I'm compelled not to believe you or lend you credibility.)

[Danielle 0]

There is actually another valid reason for Horner Troy criticism...it is spelled p-l-a-g-a-r-i-s-m.

David Arnold's Stargate...

Damn I just can't let this one slip by...

Horner did plagiarise for the love theme from Troy, but it was self-plagiarism. He did not, I repeat, *did not* rip off David Arnold. Listen to Burning the Town of Darien from Glory. It was written 5 years before Stargate, and is almost exactly the same as Troy.

Oddly enough, I have yet to hear anybody claim that Arnold ripped off Glory.

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

Weir's film's scores were fine.

Please elaborate. (Otherwise I'm compelled not to believe you or lend you credibility.)

Fair enough. And I may. But later - being an Australian I have to work right now.

Were I do so, I would use Gallipoli, Picnic at Hanging Rock, The Truman Show, Fearless and Master and Commander as examples.

And I would stress that Weir belongs to that group of directors - Scorsese, Kubrick, Antonioni, Wong Kar Wai, Michael Mann - who through their scene-based choices of music often produce scores for films that are often the equal in suitability to the film to what anything other than an exceptional composer would find. It's part of his process.

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

I re-watched Year of Living Dangerously tonight and decided that it had an ok score. The electronics still sounded silly, but also a bit more fitting with the film itself.

I don't really understand how Weir's music fits in with Scorsese and Kubrick. I understand the concept of using atypical music to get a point across, but not really with original music. Using the electronics to the extent that Weir and Jarre did back in the 80s wasn't necessarily all that timeless. The music dates the films that would otherwise be timeless.

[codanai 0]

I agree about Lord of the Rings. Some of the material in the scores was good, but the score definitely fell short of being as great as the movies. Imagine the LOTR trilogy if Williams would have scored them. Holy cow.

Greta, it's funny that you mention Horner plagiarizing from Schostakovich with Troy, because I got into a little argument with someone about that after I saw the movie. He said Schostakovich, I said Rachmaninov. I admit that I've never listened to Schostakovich's 5th, but I think that both of us were probably right. Just listen to the very beginning of Rachmaninov's 1st Symphony, and you'll hear the motif that Horner uses AGAIN and AGAIN in almost every movie he scores (Willow, Troy, The Perfect Storm, maybe Star Trek, and etc.) da-da-da-DA!

By the way, I actually really really like the fanfare that's played when it's panning around the city shots of Troy...you know, that triumphant Lydian theme (that goes up and down the lydian scale). Was that plagiarized? If so, from whom?

-Jacob

[nightscape94 965]

I still think that this topic should be "Scores that are more interesting then the Films for which they were composed". This has more potential for better discussion. As I've said before, there are possibly thousands of titles, because most film scores are, simply put, adequate.

Tim