"Empire" Anthology vs. SE

[robthehand 3]

I know the SE has a bad mix for some cues, but I have one question:

Are the SE cues with the original (Tomlinson) mix, the good mix, in better quality than on the Anthology? Or are they just direct copies?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It really depends on your taste.

But IMO there really is not a HUGE amount of difference.

[Greg1138 3]

Agreed - the differences in SW and ROTJ are blatant, but with Empire there seems to be little or no audible difference....

[Incanus 5,716]

And the difference in the quality of SW and ROTJ sound is in the favour of which? The SEs or Anthology?

I really have not been paying attention to the debate on the subject on the MB. :oops:

[Greg1138 3]

And the difference in the quality of SW and ROTJ sound is in the favour of which? The SEs or Anthology?

I would say in vavour of Anthology for ROTJ, and the jury seems to be still out on SW....though I will again go with the Anthology camp.....

[Trent B 337]

I agree with Stefcanos...there isn't much of a difference between the SE and Anthology sets for ESB. ROTJ though I agree for the most part use cues from the Anthology. Of course some cues that aren't on the Anthology set for ROTJ you'll have to use the SE sets for.

[Lurker 5]

the jury seems to be still out on SW....though I will again go with the Anthology camp.....

Since the Anthology version is littered with incorrect takes and flubbed notes that jury must be paid off.

The mix used on the Star Wars SE album was also taken from a 3 track master which was much closer to the original source than what was used on previous albums.

Neil

[Trumpeteer 302]

I agree. You can hear the page turning on the Star Wars SE much better. LOL

Of course, the mikes were too close, as we all know.

[Orson 1]

I'll just echo what's already been said. Empire is certainly the best Anthology recording which isn't saying much. Personally, I don't hear much difference between that and the SE. It's too bad, if we could have the tracks from the Star Wars and Jedi Anthology with the SE recording, we'd have a near perfect set.

[Lurker 5]

What's wrong with the Star Wars SE album? It's a model album for what all high quality expanded albums should be. It rights wrongs from a previous edition. It presents all of the music as it was intended to be heard in the correct sequence. It does everything right.

Neil

[Henry B 50]

Empire has the correct sound mix on the Anthology, but it sounds a lot clearer and crisper on the SE. I prefer the latter.

[Lurker 5]

Empire has the correct sound mix on the Anthology

Even when the channels are reversed? That happens a few times on the Anthology.

And what's the correct sound mix? Eric Tomlinson's film mix or John Neal's album mix?

Neil

[Orson 1]

What's wrong with the Star Wars SE album?  It's a model album for what all high quality expanded albums should be.  It rights wrongs from a previous edition. It presents all of the music as it was intended to be heard in the correct sequence.  It does everything right.

Neil

It's missing music that is on the Anthology version as well as not even close to being sequenced in the right order.

[Lurker 5]

What's wrong with the Star Wars SE album?  It's a model album for what all high quality expanded albums should be.  It rights wrongs from a previous edition. It presents all of the music as it was intended to be heard in the correct sequence.  It does everything right.

Neil

It's missing music that is on the Anthology version as well as not even close to being sequenced in the right order.

Huh?????

It's complete and in sequence.

You're going to have to elaborate on that. What is missing and in the wrong order on Star Wars?

Neil

[Orson 1]

It's missing Standing By... I know, I know, it's on Disc 4, but that doesn't count. I love that small little piece and it sets up the The Battle of Yavin beautifully. Tales of a Jedi Knight is also missing. I know it isn't much, but every little bit counts.

As far as the sequencing, where do I start? It's fine up until Inner City and then it is all over the place after that. That particular track should be after Blasting Off which is with Mouse Robot. So that has Han, Luke and company landing in the Death Star before they even left Mos Eisley. The Last Battle contains the music when Obi-Wan is shutting down the tractor beam. This is sequenced after Ben's Death and then cuts abrubtly into The Battle of Yavin.

[Trent B 337]

It's missing Standing By... I know, I know, it's on Disc 4, but that doesn't count. I love that small little piece and it sets up the The Battle of Yavin beautifully. Tales of a Jedi Knight is also missing. I know it isn't much, but every little bit counts.  

Um, no they're not missing. The SE and the Sony 04 sets (pratically the same release) have ANH in correct order as it was ment to be heard.

Trust us on this...the SE set is perfectly fine...you probably just haven't listened to the score while watching the movie to see if it's all there or not...we know this stuff like the back of our hands..

[Orson 1]

Nevermind, I just realized how badly I screwed up by confusing the SE and the Anthology. We are debating the same point. Tonight was the first time I got my Anthology discs out in sometime as I have been listening to the SEs since I got them. Not sure why I had them inverted...

Sorry :oops:

[Orson 1]

I was fuming when I went to bed last night. The only quasi excuse I can lean on is the three martinis I had throughout the evening. They may have slightly impaired my judgement.

[Jeshopk 8]

The best sounding OT Star Wars music is available on the original CD releases. Although they have very little music, they sound the best of all the releases. Superman is also much better sounding on the original CD. Tomlinson knew what he was doing. Mattesino did not.

[Lurker 5]

The best sounding OT Star Wars music is available on the original CD releases. Although they have very little music, they sound the best of all the releases. Superman is also much better sounding on the original CD.  Tomlinson knew what he was doing. Mattesino did not.

Mr. Matessino did not do the mix, only the assembly and the liner notes. Perhaps if he were mixing in 1996, the SE's, particularly Empire, would not have had the re-mix problems that were clearly outside of his purview. As for subtle differences between earlier generation sources like Star Wars and Superman as opposed to the original CD's which were just LP masters with the hiss rolled off, it's all a matter of personal taste. The mixes are essentially the same, it's just what happens to them in the mastering stage that takes away clarity but gives it a muddier, more distant feeling that some people find preferable. We should be glad that we have a selection.

He has since done several multi-track mixes for Varese (including the Williams approved Home Alone 2) and Intrada releases as well as the excellent Dirty Harry and Magnum Force albums, so you should check your facts (and your spelling) before you start saying that someone doesn't know what he's doing.

Neil

[robthehand 3]

And I guess Tomlinson couldn't really get it wrong, could he?

[Jeshopk 8]

Well, sorry for accusing Matessino of the mixing, though I could have sworn he said he did on Superman. The problem isn't the EQing, but mixing spot mics too hot and drowning out the ambience. The result is brittle. The musicians don't sound like they exist in the same space. It is like having 100 ears that are 3 feet away from each instrument. Also, there is compression and the quiet parts are louder and the loud parts are quieter. Maybe good for ipod listening on a busy train, but not in the secluded home stereo atmosphere.

[Lurker 5]

He did do Superman, but it was only 6-track and 3-track material, which is essentially already mixed into left-center-right fields by Tomlinson. The problem cues from Empire were those remixed from 24-track. When you have that many tracks to work with there has got be an infinite number of ways to make it sound different from the original. When you're dealing with 3 track mix-downs, there's nothing you can do about microphone placement. All you can do is make it sound further away or less separated, and on Star Wars (also a 3-track source) and Superman it seems they decided to keep the wide close sound that was already there on Tomlinson's material.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well, sorry for accusing Matessino of the mixing, though I could have sworn he said he did on Superman. The problem isn't the EQing, but mixing spot mics too hot and drowning out the ambience. The result is brittle. The musicians don't sound like they exist in the same space. It is like having 100 ears that are 3 feet away from each instrument. Also, there is compression and the quiet parts are louder and the loud parts are quieter. Maybe good for ipod listening on a busy train, but not in the secluded home stereo atmosphere.

The problem mainly exists with Tomlinsons poor source material.

He messed up on Superman, like he did on SW and Dracula (though not to the same degree)

[Trent B 337]

They just need to do this one simple thing...

Go back to the original master tapes for all 3 scores, properly mix them so they sound good (as they do on the Anthology set), and have everything properly edited so there is no swapped channels, etc.... then release THAT set.

Wishful thinking, I know...but I wish it would happen.

[Henry B 50]

Even when the channels are reversed? That happens a few times on the Anthology.

And what's the correct sound mix? Eric Tomlinson's film mix or John Neal's album mix?

I was thinking Tomlinson's film mix. Risner's SE remix is extremely centric and "small" sounding. But I prefer it for the crispness and clarity compared to the muddy Anthology. And yes, the swapped channels are an exception.

[bob23 0]

On my anthology soundtrack, track 12 a note/left channel? seems to cut off too quickly at 0:35 as compared to the movie and it really annoys me. I was just wondering if this could be my cd being bad, or if not does this occur on the SE remix. Thanks

[robthehand 3]

There are quite a few "glitches" on the Anthology - or rather, clunky edits.

[Ollie 1,059]

TESB on the anthology set appears to contain edits as heard in the movie on a few cues so it's possible the film versions may have been used.

I believe there was a thread on FSM where those involved with the Anthology explained some of the problems encountered with putting it together.

[bob23 0]

Thanks guys, that is what I figured. Time to start looking on ebay for the SE cds.

[robthehand 3]

You don't need to use eBay for those - they're still regularly available. You may need to look around for the Anthology though.

BTW If you want the 1997 SE CDs (with liner notes), you may need to use eBay, but they crop up in stores quite regularly.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Or you could just buy the current Sony releases, since they're the same anyway, just with different packaging.

[robthehand 3]

And you can read the liner notes online.

[deleted account 108]

I would argue that the SE Star Wars cd are truer presentations of the score as it was recorded and sounded in the movie - the practice in those days was to record scores without adding much reverb, because movie theaters were generally larger and the sound systems were often just speakers behind the screen so the size of the theater added it's own "reverb" and compensated for the dryer recording. The Anthology's sound is not bad, but Ford Thaxton assembled many of the cues from the wrong takes, resulting in different orchestrations, flubbed notes and other maladies.

The ESB SE cd is generally dryer as well, although some tracks (most memorably for me "Han Solo and the Princess") sound much more pinched than they do on the Anthology. As it is, I made some minor edits to my ESB SE cds so that I could have a film version of the opening cue that had the main title, film version of the probe droid and then Hoth base material. I never understood why in that case they went with JW's orig instead of the film version, as they did is every other instance requiring a rewrite (such as the Sarlaac Pit, Victory Celebration)

I don't think either version of JEDI sounds all that great - and watching the DVDs I think the score in the movie even sounds weak. It seems like that score suffered from too much "engineering" when they recorded it originally, "damage" that can't be undone.

These are all just my opinions though.

[Trent B 337]

Doesn't the archives at Skywalker ranch have the original master tapes for the OT? Or were those reported lost?

[Lurker 5]

The Anthology's sound is not bad, but Ford Thaxton assembled many of the cues from the wrong takes, resulting in different orchestrations, flubbed notes and other maladies.

This only effects Star Wars. Empire and Jedi were made using Wannberg assembled tapes, so no alternates could creep in.

Neil

[robthehand 3]

And the film version of the "Finale" is only available on the Anthology for Empire, right?

It's a pity - because that one seems to have the "clunkiest" edits IMO.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

well i prefer the longer finale...

[bob23 0]

>> And the film version of the "Finale" is only available on the Anthology for Empire, right?

>> It's a pity - because that one seems to have the "clunkiest" edits IMO.

I would have to agree with this, I almost though my cd was skipping in a couple of spots, but it wasn't.

>> Or you could just buy the current Sony releases, since they're the same anyway, just with different >>packaging.

Thanks for the information, but I think that the covers on the new cds are ugly, I'd rather have the 97 ones

>>You don't need to use eBay for those - they're still regularly available. You may need to look around for the Anthology though.

>>BTW If you want the 1997 SE CDs (with liner notes), you may need to use eBay, but they crop up in stores quite regularly.

I'll look around thanks

[Vaderbait1 1]

It's complete and in sequence.

I don't know about complete, but it's not in sequence. Quite often a piece from later in the film will be inserted in the Tatooine scenes. The music is also diffrent (such as the music entering Mos Eisley) from the film.

[robthehand 3]

The entering Mos Eisley sequence contained tracked music from "Dianoga" - this was not in the original version of the film, and nor should it be included in a truly "complete score" IMO. Check out this page for more info.