Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire

[Josh500 1,615]

And equally clearly, Patrick Doyle doesn't like John Williams, can't stand him... whether it's because of the alleged Stepmom incident, I don't know.

Why do you think this?

Being at the top is lonely.

That's my guess. There's a lot of jealousy on, in any business, but particularly in show business.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Stepmom was Chris Columbus, why would Patrick Doyle do it?

The first three Potter films were Chris Columbus. It makes sense that JW wouldn't continue on. I don't think there are any conflicts here.

[Josh500 1,615]

"Director Chris Columbus made it clear at the time, interestingly, that a trusting relationship with his composers for each film is of paramount importance. He placed his trust in reliable British composer Patrick Doyle for Stepmom, who struggled through serious illness to write a heavily melodramatic score for the film. Unfortunately, Columbus didn't return the trust to Doyle. Film Score Monthly reported at the time that John Williams, after being delighted by an advanced screening of the film, used his reputation as muscle to push Doyle out the door. This is highly unlikely in its confrontational stance, but it's certainly possible that circumstances presented themselves in such a way that Williams' arrival was more than just convenient. Columbus had worked with Williams before (Home Alone) and would do so again (Harry Potter), and given Williams' open schedule at the time, it's hard to imagine why Williams wasn't originally assigned to Stepmom. Another head-scratcher is the tone of Williams' score; if Columbus and his writers were so intent on pulling the strings on the audience's emotions at regular intervals, then why not explore the more syrupy sound for a score? It seems that Doyle was perhaps simply reacting to what he saw on screen and writing music to match. Conversely, Williams' score is better tempered and possibly an attempt by Columbus to tone back the obviously overt emotions of the film. A score from the maestro hasn't been this restrained and conventional since the days of Stanley & Iris, The Accidental Tourist, and Always in the late 1980's."

(Quote from filmtracks.com/titles/stepmom)

[Henry B 50]

And equally clearly, Patrick Doyle doesn't like John Williams, can't stand him... whether it's because of the alleged Stepmom incident, I don't know.

Why do you think this?

Being at the top is lonely.

That's my guess. There's a lot of jealousy on, in any business, but particularly in show business.

So you're just assuming that Doyle is bitter and jealous toward Williams for no reason? If the Stepmom rumor is true, then I'd be pissed too, but I really don't understand how you're inferring this negative attitude from the director's comments. It's true that Doyle pushed for a more original route with the score... but it's not because he hates Williams... it's because he wants to actually write his own music.

[Josh500 1,615]

And equally clearly, Patrick Doyle doesn't like John Williams, can't stand him... whether it's because of the alleged Stepmom incident, I don't know.

Why do you think this?

Being at the top is lonely.

That's my guess. There's a lot of jealousy on, in any business, but particularly in show business.

So you're just assuming that Doyle is bitter and jealous toward Williams for no reason? If the Stepmom rumor is true, then I'd be pissed too, but I really don't understand how you're inferring this negative attitude from the director's comments. It's true that Doyle pushed for a more original route with the score... but it's not because he hates Williams... it's because he wants to actually write his own music.

Well, it's just not just this interview. I seem to remember having read an interview with PD himself when the movie came out, and it was just the way he talked... I got that impression. I don't think he downright hates JW, but I think he doesn't like JW's works or admire them, either.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

And equally clearly, Patrick Doyle doesn't like John Williams, can't stand him... whether it's because of the alleged Stepmom incident, I don't know.

Why do you think this?

Being at the top is lonely.

That's my guess. There's a lot of jealousy on, in any business, but particularly in show business.

So you're just assuming that Doyle is bitter and jealous toward Williams for no reason? If the Stepmom rumor is true, then I'd be pissed too, but I really don't understand how you're inferring this negative attitude from the director's comments. It's true that Doyle pushed for a more original route with the score... but it's not because he hates Williams... it's because he wants to actually write his own music.

All this aside, would Doyle hold this grudge for a decade? This is starting to sound like The Cask Of Amontillado.

[Henry B 50]

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

The first three Potter films were Chris Columbus. It makes sense that JW wouldn't continue on. I don't think there are any conflicts here.

First two.

[Ollie 1,059]

If it came from Filmtracks I wouldn't trust it. And Patrick Doyle has praised Williams' works on several occasions.

More than likely Columbus wanted Williams from the start but he was unavailable to committ. Columbus wasn't happy with Doyle's score, Williams becomes available and gets shown a cut of the film and likes it so Columbus dumps the score and hires Williams to score it.

[Josh500 1,615]

And Patrick Doyle has praised Williams' works on several occasions.

Really? Still know where? I would like to read/hear that!

[Hlao-roo 389]

Also, IMO Patrick Doyle did a good job--for him, that is.

I would disagree. As I've said before, I think that the score was roundly disappointing. From a pure melodic standpoint, "Harry in Winter" is about as lovely as anything Williams wrote for the first two Potter films, but, as a whole, the score is thematically unremarkable, and littered with action cues that evince little sense of scale or restraint (then again, action has never been Doyle's strong suit). I can only wonder what an early to mid-nineties Doyle would have brought to the project.

[Marian Schedenig 8,195]

Newell doesn't know a lot about film music (no more than a slightly enthusiastic fan, I would say), and even less about John Williams.

And that is probably true for most directors.

And equally clearly, Patrick Doyle doesn't like John Williams, can't stand him... whether it's because of the alleged Stepmom incident, I don't know.

Clearly, indeed. Even worse, the traitor likes Goldsmith!

Also, IMO Patrick Doyle did a good job--for him, that is. Compared to the first 3 scores, however, the score to GoF is a (bad) loser.

It's not a bad score, and it's quite good for Doyle, but far from his best.

[King Mark 3,631]

the big question remains .Why would Williams even want to score a stinker like Stepmom??

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Hello showbiz!

[Josh500 1,615]

Also, IMO Patrick Doyle did a good job--for him, that is.

I would disagree. As I've said before, I think that the score was roundly disappointing. From a pure melodic standpoint, "Harry in Winter" is about as lovely as anything Williams wrote for the first two Potter films, but, as a whole, the score is thematically unremarkable, and littered with action cues that evince little sense of scale or restraint (then again, action has never been Doyle's strong suit). I can only wonder what an early to mid-nineties Doyle would have brought to the project.

It's not Doyle's best work ever, agreed, but I think this one appears to some even more disappointing because JW showed us 3 times before what can be done...

Again, I think it's a solid score for Doyle. And also, you have to take into account that he probably wrote a lot more music for HP than for the Shakespeare adaptions. So he had less time to work on each cue/theme.

the big question remains .Why would Williams even want to score a stinker like Stepmom??

Two words: The first is Chris.

Can you guess the second?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Newell's comments are about 49.7% right.

See, everyone prattles on about how if John Williams had stayed on board we'd get all these great renditions of Window to the Past, and Fawkes the Phoenix and blah blah blah.

Did we forget the TPM to AotC theme carry over? Or hell the first two HP movies to PoA? Yes, he did sharply change styles, but really think about it, did we see true maturation?

No.

Did Doyle succeed? I will say the overall weight of the score is much more...dramatic and melancholy. There is an inherent mystical loneliness to Doyle's music (and it's true for practically every dramatic work he does, which I guess in a way does make him a better candidate for a darker tone). His music isn't near the quality of Prisoner of Azkaban, but at the same time, it is dramatically heavier, and more in line with what Newell wanted.

[Hlao-roo 389]

There is an inherent mystical loneliness to Doyle's music

I'm not quite sure what this "inherent mystical loneliness" of which you speak is, but those are words I would use to characterize "A Window to the Past," for sure.

His music isn't near the quality of Prisoner of Azkaban, but at the same time, it is dramatically heavier

Oh, I'd say it's "heavier," all right. Leaden.

[Josh500 1,615]

I'm not quite sure what this "inherent mystical loneliness" of which you speak is, but those are words I would use to characterize "A Window to the Past," for sure.

Yeah! In fact, the whole wintry snowy atmosphere of PoA is enhanced by JW's inherently mystical and lonely score...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The first three Potter films were Chris Columbus. It makes sense that JW wouldn't continue on. I don't think there are any conflicts here.

First two.

He produced the third, which is probably the reason why Williams composed.

[Marian Schedenig 8,195]

And also, you have to take into account that he probably wrote a lot more music for HP than for the Shakespeare adaptions. So he had less time to work on each cue/theme.

You know that Hamlet lasts 4 hours? And I'd wager Much Ado About Nothing has several times as many notes as Doyle's Potter score.

Yeah! In fact, the whole wintry snowy atmosphere of PoA is enhanced by JW's inherently mystical and lonely score...

And a wintry snowy atmosphere seems to be precisely what Newell didn't want.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I'm not quite sure what this "inherent mystical loneliness" of which you speak is, but those are words I would use to characterize "A Window to the Past," for sure.

I think we have a misunderstanding. I was not referring to literal solo woodwinds that give you sense of isolation, but rather an intangible quality to the score that's within its architecture. It is a very cold score. "A Window to the Past" is lonely, yes, but it is also very warm.

Oh, I'd say it's "heavier"

Well I'm glad we agree it tries to be a dramatically heavier score.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Mike Newell criticising John Williams is like a mosquito pinching an elephant - he just scratches his ass and moves on.

the big question remains .Why would Williams even want to score a stinker like Stepmom??

Well, he did score Lost World.

[Red 75]

the big question remains .Why would Williams even want to score a stinker like Stepmom??

Because he owed a favor to Christopher Columbus?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

John Williams borrowed some money from Christopher Columbus. It was time for him to pay the check.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Or hell the first two HP movies to PoA?

To be fair, the story of PoA doesnt really allow much themes to be carried over in the first place.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Or hell the first two HP movies to PoA?

To be fair, the story of PoA doesnt really allow much themes to be carried over in the first place.

Life isn't fair.

I'm not quite sure what this "inherent mystical loneliness" of which you speak is, but those are words I would use to characterize "A Window to the Past," for sure.

I think we have a misunderstanding. I was not referring to literal solo woodwinds that give you sense of isolation, but rather an intangible quality to the score that's within its architecture. It is a very cold score. "A Window to the Past" is lonely, yes, but it is also very warm.

Oh, I'd say it's "heavier"

Well I'm glad we agree it tries to be a dramatically heavier score.

That's the first time I've heard a Doyle score referred to as "cold." I'm not sure if you're suggesting that the path to dramatic heft is through clinical distance. But, then, I'm not even sure what "dramatically heavy" means. If Newell believes that the composer of Schindler's List is incapable of bringing the requisite emotional maturity to a film, then that's his business.

[Henry B 50]

Doyle's score uses major keys a lot, so it must be warm.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Doyle's score uses major keys a lot, so it must be warm.

...OK?

[Henry B 50]

Okay, but seriously. Tracks like "Frank Dies" are dramatically lightweight?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Perhaps it slipped his mind. He was engaged in an interview, you know.

Ze man is... nefarious.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Okay, but seriously. Tracks like "Frank Dies" are dramatically lightweight?

I don't believe anyone here has made such a suggestion.

[Henry B 50]

I do.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I'm in agreement with Blumenkohl that Doyle makes an effort to treat the scenes with appropriate gravity, yes. If anything, Doyle errs more on the side of too much than that of too little. But Doyle's ultimate product has little to do with Newell's remarks, which purport to be about a composer's flexibility and receptiveness to change, but which, in the end, appear to be more about one director's preference for a particular composer's style. That Williams's score for Prisoner of Azkaban may or may not be as "dramatically heavy" as Doyle's for Goblet of Fire is not an argument that demonstrates Williams's inability to serve the dramatic needs of Goblet of Fire.

I do.

Then we are at an impasse.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I cannot find any implication of the sort, anywhere. Where are you finding it, Henry?

EDIT: In response to Henry....

[Henry B 50]

I'm in agreement with Blumenkohl that Doyle makes an effort to treat the scenes with appropriate gravity, yes. If anything, Doyle errs more on the side of too much than that of too little. But Doyle's ultimate product has little to do with Newell's remarks...

Yeah. I was just agreeing with Blume that for all its glorious hymns and fanfares there is a certain innate coldness/heaviness to Doyle's score.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I'm in agreement with Blumenkohl that Doyle makes an effort to treat the scenes with appropriate gravity, yes. If anything, Doyle errs more on the side of too much than that of too little. But Doyle's ultimate product has little to do with Newell's remarks...

Yeah. I was just agreeing with Blume that for all its glorious hymns and fanfares there is a certain innate coldness/heaviness to Doyle's score.

And I was saying that that surprises me, because I've never listened to a Doyle score and determined it to be "cold," and that's not usually a term I see associated with him. Among classically trained orchestral film composers, I usually reserve that distinction for Alexandre Desplat.

[Henry B 50]

Then it seems we have a difference of opinion. Pistols at dawn?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Then it seems we have a difference of opinion. Pistols at dawn?

Eight o'clock. (I do my killing after breakfast.)

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

I'm chiming in late here (wow this thread blew up in less than a day)...

How can I simplify this without being controversial... is it possible Newell, a proud Brit, just doesn't want to give even more opportunity/success to American composers? He seems bitter and jealous, all he's ever used on his films are 2nd rate British composers. The manner in which he condescends and simplifies Williams' ability is both alarming and head-scratching.

This is a great find (thanks). Newell just lost a lot of credibility, and my respect to go along with it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm more surprised that he couldn't remember that Herrmann scored North By Northwest than anything. So he doesn't like John Williams, big whoop. Who cares?

[Hlao-roo 389]

all he's ever used on his films are 2nd rate British composers.

Uh...

I'm more surprised that he couldn't remember that Herrmann scored North By Northwest than anything. So he doesn't like John Williams, big whoop. Who cares?

If all he had said was, "I don't really care for John Williams's music, so I went with my buddy Pat," that would have been fine. It's when he starts needling Williams with made-up critiques that he gets into trouble and strikes a nerve.

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

all he's ever used on his films are 2nd rate British composers.

Uh...

Well Rachel Portman is good, but the others?

His track record seems more like a concerted effort to avoid American composers and give his British friends work. That's perfectly acceptable, but don't say Williams is incapable of changing with the franchise. That's just ignorant and completely disrespectful.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm more surprised that he couldn't remember that Herrmann scored North By Northwest than anything. So he doesn't like John Williams, big whoop. Who cares?

If all he had said was, "I don't really care for John Williams's music, so I went with my buddy Pat," that would have been fine. It's when he starts needling Williams with made-up critiques that he gets into trouble and strikes a nerve.

A lot of people here hate Hans Zimmer and don't think he can compose music. I don't create a thread and start calling them all idiots.

I agree that he is wrong about his views on JW. But that's it, their his views, his opinions. Move on...

[Henry B 50]

Hans Zimmer is a talented composer who has written some pretty good music. It's his god damn music factory that's the problem.

[MattyO 62]

Wow, I didn't expect this to generate so much discussion. By all means continue...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Hans Zimmer is a talented composer who has written some pretty good music. It's his god damn music factory that's the problem.

Hey, if his "music factory" brought out John Powell and Harry Gregson-Williams, I don't think it's a problem.

[Hlao-roo 389]

A lot of people here hate Hans Zimmer and don't think he can compose music. I don't create a thread and start calling them all idiots.

Well, you should. Seriously. The Zimmer appreciation thread is fine and all, but if you write something like The Slow Burn, I think you'll win Zimmer some more fans, or at least some more respect.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

A lot of people here hate Hans Zimmer and don't think he can compose music. I don't create a thread and start calling them all idiots.

Well, you should. Seriously. The Zimmer appreciation thread is fine and all, but if you write something like The Slow Burn, and I think you'll win Zimmer some more fans, or at least some more respect.

I know all that stuff. It won't change peoples minds. They're ignorant and will always think the way they do.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hans Zimmer is a talented composer who has written some pretty good music. It's his god damn music factory that's the problem.

Henry does raise an important distinction here. It's quite possible to appreciate Zimmer as a composer, and even some of those who have followed in his footsteps, such a John Powell, while also lamenting the disproportionate influence his machine has exerted over the business -- and, hence, art -- of film scoring. I don't think Zimmer fans always appreciate how sad it is to have an environment in which tremendous talents like Broughton, Conti, Shire, Delerue, and others find themselves out of favor. Sure, it's a business, it's a dog-eat-dog world, but why does the MV/RC sound have to be the dominant aesthetic?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Delerue died in 1992, well before the MC/RC take-over.

And Conti and Shire weren't exactly working the big budget racket either.