Rate "Born On The Fourth Of July"

[Josh500 1,615]

One of the very best dramatic JW scores. I think the opening of the movie ("The Early Days") ranks among JW's very best-scored moments. That and "Born on the Fourth of July" (the concert piece) are masterpieces.

However, the whole score IS a bit repetitive. Not that many themes. How many are there, anyway? (Like 3?)

The movie is great, too, because of Oliver Stone and because of (or in spite of) Tom Cruise.

Score: 4.5

Movie: 4

[Trent Hoyt 13]

I've only seen the movie once and that was awhile ago. I've listened to the score twice in the past two days and I really like it. Its dramatic and beautiful at the same time. It has some great string work.

Score: 4

Movie: Been too long to say

[publicist 4,643]

I've only seen the movie once and that was awhile ago. I've listened to the score twice in the past two days and I really like it. Its dramatic and beautiful at the same time. It has some great string work.

Score: 4

Movie: Been too long to say

5 for the score, 3,5 for the movie.

[Josh500 1,615]

I think at 1:36 (Early Days) starts the best oboe solo JW has ever written...

That always moves me to tears, almost.

[Joe Brausam 214]

5 stars, it's my favorite Williams score.

I think at 1:36 starts the best oboe solo JW has ever written...

That always moves me to tears, almost.

In "Early Days"? I don't have the recording available to me at the moment, but I'm pretty certain it's an English horn.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

Josh, do you have a database of all these polls and their results?

[Josh500 1,615]

5 stars, it's my favorite Williams score.

I think at 1:36 starts the best oboe solo JW has ever written...

That always moves me to tears, almost.

In "Early Days"? I don't have the recording available to me at the moment, but I'm pretty certain it's an English horn.

No, that's an oboe.

Josh, do you have a database of all these polls and their results?

Alas, no.

I'm not that dedicated. <_<

[Trent Hoyt 13]

Haha, well it would be interesting to see nonetheless.

[Joe Brausam 214]

5 stars, it's my favorite Williams score.

I think at 1:36 starts the best oboe solo JW has ever written...

That always moves me to tears, almost.

In "Early Days"? I don't have the recording available to me at the moment, but I'm pretty certain it's an English horn.

No, that's an oboe.

Haha, but the score says English horn!

[Incanus 5,714]

5 for the score.

4 for the film.

Born on the Fourth of July is one of John Williams' best drama scores. No question about it.

[Josh500 1,615]

Haha, but the score says English horn!

Where did you get that? <_<

Anyway, maybe it was originally intended for the English horn, I don't know. But on the OS, it's played by an oboe.

Trust me, I know the difference.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I'm not doubting you, like I said I don't have the recording with me at the moment so you could be right - I just remember hearing the richer lower register sound from an English horn.

[Josh500 1,615]

I'm not doubting you, like I said I don't have the recording with me at the moment so you could be right - I just remember hearing the richer lower register sound from an English horn.

If you want to hear an English horn, listen to "The Arrival of David" (from A.I.)

Now, incidentally, I think that's the best English horn solo JW ever wrote. <_<

[Joe Brausam 214]

I'm not doubting you, like I said I don't have the recording with me at the moment so you could be right - I just remember hearing the richer lower register sound from an English horn.

If you want to hear an English horn, listen to "The Arrival of David" (from A.I.)

Now, incidentally, I think that's the best English horn solo JW ever wrote. <_<

I know how they sound, I go to school for music!

Just a case of a bad memory of the cue on my part, I suppose!

[Josh500 1,615]

I'm not doubting you, like I said I don't have the recording with me at the moment so you could be right - I just remember hearing the richer lower register sound from an English horn.

If you want to hear an English horn, listen to "The Arrival of David" (from A.I.)

Now, incidentally, I think that's the best English horn solo JW ever wrote.

I know how they sound, I go to school for music!

Just a case of a bad memory of the cue on my part, I suppose!

<_<

Anyway, where did you get the written score?

[Joe Brausam 214]

Oh. Just check the trading lists section.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

5 for the score

4 for the film

I always though it was an English Horn.

[Josh500 1,615]

Oh. Just check the trading lists section.

Ahhh <_<

Hey, while we're on the topic of which instruments played what, I've never been quite able to figure out which bass instruments play the deep driving accompaniment starting at 2:03 of "Summon the Heroes."

Do you have any idea?

I would say bass trombone and tuba, but I'm pretty sure I'm wrong.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Mmm...if you mean the section that starts at 4:30-something in the long version then we have...

-Contrabassoon

-Trombones 2-4, 4 is probably a bass trombone

-Cellos/basses

The long version is the only recording I have, so I hope that's what you meant.

EDIT: Yeah, I listened to the Olympic premiere on youtube, which is the shorter version, so we're talking about the same part.

[Josh500 1,615]

Mmm...if you mean the section that starts at 4:30-something in the long version then we have...

-Contrabassoon

-Trombones 2-4, 4 is probably a bass trombone

-Cellos/basses

The long version is the only recording I have, so I hope that's what you meant.

EDIT: Yeah, I listened to the Olympic premiere on youtube, which is the shorter version, so we're talking about the same part.

Yes!! Thanks, that's what I meant.

Ahhh contrabassoon... why didn't I think of that? <_<

Anyway, when I heard that section for the very first time, I was so impressed, I nearly got tears in my eyes.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I wouldn't have guessed a contrabassoon either if it wasn't right there in the music!

[Josh500 1,615]

Hey, thanks for the sheet music! I'm studying it right now... <_<

[Joe Brausam 214]

Not a problem. <_<

[Mark_73 0]

Once again about "The Early Days": Is that solo played by english horn or oboe d`amore?? Ok. Both sound a flat third

lower than the oboe but there is still a fine difference. The tone color of the oboe d`amore is quite smoother than the conventional oboe but not as soft as the sound of an english horn. Can someone help me out with that? If not I´ll give Heinz Holliger a call ;-)

No no no. Stupid me! I had a long day so please excuse me. I told you wrong! The english horn is in F. So it´s a fifth lower

than the oboe, not a flat third. Sorry for that!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Haha, well it would be interesting to see nonetheless.

I used to have a "database" of all my Top 5 threads. That was on my PC though and is long gone.

Score: 3

Film: 4

The score is too repetitive and even brings the film down because of it.

[Josh500 1,615]

The score is too repetitive and even brings the film down because of it.

Now, I wouldn't say that...

Once again about "The Early Days": Is that solo played by english horn or oboe d`amore?? Ok. Both sound a flat third

lower than the oboe but there is still a fine difference. The tone color of the oboe d`amore is quite smoother than the conventional oboe but not as soft as the sound of an english horn. Can someone help me out with that? If not I´ll give Heinz Holliger a call ;-)

No no no. Stupid me! I had a long day so please excuse me. I told you wrong! The english horn is in F. So it´s a fifth lower

than the oboe, not a flat third. Sorry for that!

Well, I'm not an expert and I don't know all the different types of oboes there are out there, but this sure sounds to me like the same instrument that plays solo in "Avner and Daphna" and at the beginning of "Across the Stars" (oboe)...

[Joe Brausam 214]

I'd love to have a notated copy of Avner and Daphna, I'd really like to arrange it for oboe/horn/piano to perform.

[Red 75]

5 for the score.

4 for the film.

Born on the Fourth of July is one of John Williams' best drama scores. No question about it.

I agree, although I think he's done better dramatic scores.

[Ollie 1,059]

4.5 for the score.

3.5 for the film.

[Incanus 5,714]

The score is too repetitive and even brings the film down because of it.

The complete score is around 45 minutes long and for a 2½ hour movie. So it is a very sparsely scored film. The music is used only on key moments and in a leitmotivic way. If it is repetetive then it is because the story has recurring elements. The horror of war, the idyllic home life VS the returning soldier's psyche, Ron Kovic finding redemption and purpose in life. For me the music brings the movie up and adds heart aching lyricism to it.

Early Days, Massapequa is a superb example of this. The music begins with the Horrors of War theme as Ron as a child is following a parade where he sees the veterans walking almost if in a dream through the streets, scarred, wounded, in wheelchairs, wary of the slightest pop of the firecrackers going off in the crowd, memories of now distant war haunting them. The heavy piano chords resounding under the sombre strings tell a different story than that of the cheery parade. They speak of haunting sorrow. This melts into string orchestra rising and joined by the cor anglais melody, a lilting piece underscoring Ron's first kiss on 4th of July, then showing us the life of suburban American middle class family in a very idyllic way. The images even have a nostalgic almost golden light to them as if to say these are the golden years of this boy. The music is so full of joy, the strings singing almost a hymn, an ode to the peaceful lifestyle, the childhood and the warm experience of safe home and hearth. Idyllic Americana. The trumpet joins the ensemble as we hear Kennedy's speech and the strings intone again the Horrors of War as the president pledges his help to nations to defend liberty Williams quietly foreshadowing the coming wars and the piece finishes with the Home theme as Ron's mother says she had a dream of him speaking to a large crowd of people just like Kennedy. Here the music asserts an image before the war, before all the suffering the main character has to go through. The lyricism, almost over scoring the scene is important. It will leave us with a memory of where this character came from, the happier days, the innocence.

And having seen the film multiple times it is aching to know beforehand what will happen to Ron Kovic which makes the music all the more poignant.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yes, well-said, Icanus.

I think having such a strong(-socred) opening can be a bit of a "problem" too. Everything else, IMO, can seem a bit anticlimactic...

But then, the very end, the climax, is pretty strong too.

[Mark_73 0]

The score is too repetitive and even brings the film down because of it.

Now, I wouldn't say that...

Once again about "The Early Days": Is that solo played by english horn or oboe d`amore?? Ok. Both sound a flat third

lower than the oboe but there is still a fine difference. The tone color of the oboe d`amore is quite smoother than the conventional oboe but not as soft as the sound of an english horn. Can someone help me out with that? If not I´ll give Heinz Holliger a call ;-)

No no no. Stupid me! I had a long day so please excuse me. I told you wrong! The english horn is in F. So it´s a fifth lower

than the oboe, not a flat third. Sorry for that!

Well, I'm not an expert and I don't know all the different types of oboes there are out there, but this sure sounds to me like the same instrument that plays solo in "Avner and Daphna" and at the beginning of "Across the Stars" (oboe)...

Hi again! Ok you are absolutely right about "Avner and Daphna" and "Across the Stars". It´s in both cases the oboe. But not in "The early days". This solo part is performed by English horn. Trust me, I´m sure. I want you to become an expert

so I added two links you should sneak into. One is a little masterclass for oboe and the other one for english horn. Both are

performed by the principal soloists of the London Symphony Orchestra. Have fun and good luck! :-)

MC for English Horn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt3d4ivG3yA...feature=related

MC for Oboe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIORB2GyN90...feature=channel

[Ollie 1,059]

The score is too repetitive.

That's probably why the original album only has roughly 24 minutes (or less) of actual score and the rest are songs.

[Incanus 5,714]

The score is too repetitive.

That's probably why the original album only has roughly 24 minutes (or less) of actual score and the rest are songs.

Most likely although there are a few pieces that would have been nice on the album. Wargames from the beginning of the film and Villa Dulce material for example. Not that repetition has stopped JW from producing longer monothematic albums like Accidental Tourist and Presumed Innocent.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I hope we can get a complete release of this at some point. A nice box set of the three Williams/Stone scores would be awesome.

[Andy 4,127]

Listened today after the thread inspired me. Wow, the final track is a very satisfying resolution. Anyone know what the chorus is whispering in Cua Viet River, Vietnam, 1968? As for the rock rhythm in Homecoming, it feels a bit dated.

Hard to believe this is 20 years old. I remember when it came out thinking this was the "new" sound for John Williams.

[Josh500 1,615]

The score is too repetitive and even brings the film down because of it.

Now, I wouldn't say that...

Once again about "The Early Days": Is that solo played by english horn or oboe d`amore?? Ok. Both sound a flat third

lower than the oboe but there is still a fine difference. The tone color of the oboe d`amore is quite smoother than the conventional oboe but not as soft as the sound of an english horn. Can someone help me out with that? If not I´ll give Heinz Holliger a call ;-)

No no no. Stupid me! I had a long day so please excuse me. I told you wrong! The english horn is in F. So it´s a fifth lower

than the oboe, not a flat third. Sorry for that!

Well, I'm not an expert and I don't know all the different types of oboes there are out there, but this sure sounds to me like the same instrument that plays solo in "Avner and Daphna" and at the beginning of "Across the Stars" (oboe)...

Hi again! Ok you are absolutely right about "Avner and Daphna" and "Across the Stars". It´s in both cases the oboe. But not in "The early days". This solo part is performed by English horn. Trust me, I´m sure. I want you to become an expert

so I added two links you should sneak into. One is a little masterclass for oboe and the other one for english horn. Both are

performed by the principal soloists of the London Symphony Orchestra. Have fun and good luck! :-)

MC for English Horn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt3d4ivG3yA...feature=related

MC for Oboe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIORB2GyN90...feature=channel

Just saw them.

However, I am not convinced. You see, I know how an English horn or an oboe (usually) sound.

English horn: beginning of "Theme from Schindler's List," "The Arrival of David," "The Days Between" etc.

Oboe: "Avner and Daphna," "Across the Stars," "Anakin Is Free" etc.

So unless it's some kind of different sounding English horn, this is an oboe...

[Joe Brausam 214]

"The Days Between" is oboe though.

[Josh500 1,615]

"The Days Between" is oboe though.

Is it? Oh hell.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Hahaha

[Koray Savas 2,251]

A nice box set of the three Williams/Stone scores would be awesome.

That would be nice, and is a great opportunity for what could be an awesome JW set.

[A24 4,333]

The score is too repetitive.

That's probably why the original album only has roughly 24 minutes (or less) of actual score and the rest are songs.

Yes, I just listen to the 'forbidden' version with its alternate and unused cuts. Most of the themes just keep on coming back! This CD is almost a test to see if you can make it to the end. The reward is that it does end with a funny track though.

Alex

[Josh500 1,615]

A nice box set of the three Williams/Stone scores would be awesome.

That would be nice, and is a great opportunity for what could be an awesome JW set.

Let's just hope that Laurent Boozeman is not involved!

"The Days Between" is oboe though.

Yes, I've listened to it again, and this is an oboe.

The other thing, however... hmmmm is an oboe too!

[mahler3 478]

Lovely score yes, lots about the Oboe which is great yes but Tim Morrison's trumpet solo's are stunning (as always!)

That was their first film gig together other than the Boston Pops concerts / cd's if I remember correctly, also a rare occasion of a soloist getting a screen credit.

The suite on Sony's Music From the Stage & Screen is the best representation of the score away from the film personally.

Always had mixed feeling about the film, there are some great moments but Dafoe is irritating and the film tends to plod now and again.

Score - 4

Film - 3

[Josh500 1,615]

I never liked the BotFoJ concert version on the Music from Stage & Screen album...

Maybe because I am so used to the OS version, which I consider nothing short of perfect.

[mahler3 478]

The concert version expands upon some of the original with longer passages for oboe and trumpet which works well. I agree though that the end credits string section is unrivalled though yes, very striking!

I see you no longer laugh after each of your posts Josh, are you more serious these days?

[Josh500 1,615]

No, after listening to this soundtrack, I'm in a sombre frame of mind!

I'm wondering... why did Indy 4 get 60 votes, and this only gets 17???

Who is not voting?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Who is not voting?

Why don't you make a poll and find out?

[Josh500 1,615]

Who is not voting?

Why don't you make a poll and find out?

Why don't you make a poll first whether such a poll makes sense?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Who is not voting?

Why don't you make a poll and find out?

Why don't you make a poll first whether such a poll makes sense?

But that would be silly!