The Thematic Material of the Star Wars Saga (Possible Community Project?)

[mrbellamy 6,287]

Yep, I agree too. I would have been interested to get a new Williams fanfare, of course, but the silence was very effective.

 

I do think it would be cool if Kennedy could commission something from him, though, even if they never end up using it for Star Wars specifically.

[crumbs 14,317]

I'm sure there was a plan at some point for Williams to write a fanfare, because they slapped that horrible edited one onto the digital versions of the other films. Why bother doing that if from Episode 7 onwards the logo would be silent?!

 

My working theory is that John DID write a new fanfare, but it was the most awful thing he's ever written. Mickey Mouse called an emergency board meeting and all members agreed to seize every recording and every copy of sheet music, then incinerate all traces of evidence in a confidential location. 

 

This seems the most logical explanation.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

On 21/12/2015 at 0:42 AM, KK. said:

Is it me or is "Han and Leia" in Torn Apart? At 2:14, I keep hearing a twisted variation of that melody on the horns, probably to accompany the fall.

 

wait wait wait.

 

And arent the strings in the forefront quoting a passage from across the stars too????

 

Torn appart 2:14-2:20

 

Across the stars concert version: 4:01-4:21 (the melody is played twice)

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Can anyone check wait i said??... i'm curious...

[leeallen01 2,136]

On 2/7/2016 at 5:44 PM, Luke Skywalker said:

 

wait wait wait.

 

And arent the strings in the forefront quoting a passage from across the stars too????

 

Torn appart 2:14-2:20

 

Across the stars concert version: 4:01-4:21 (the melody is played twice)

 

I can hear it yes, but my guess would be a coincidence. Though it would wonderfully make sense having it there; combining both the theme for his parents and the theme for his grand parents as he commits the terrible act. As the scene is clearly about Kylo and not Han.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

thanks for commenting

 

yeah..it's probably a coincidence, kind of a 'lament music' Williamsism...

 

but maybe we are counting other 'quotations' as intentional and are coincidences...

 

For example, the talk of podracing in finn's confession...yeah it's more note by note blatant, but makes no sense thematically.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Not if Finn is Qui-Gonn's grandson.

[Faleel 5,350]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

makes no sense thematically.

Its a discussion (like in Talk of Podracing and The Queen Confronts Nute and Rune), and its a confrontation (like in The Queen Confronts Nute and Rune)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

So it's a "confrontational discussion" theme!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i dont think that williams did it consciously...

 

 

but who knows, maybe Williams throws in these small snippets in a new scroe from a franchise as to make the audience feel confortable and made them think "hey this sounds like a star wars score"...

 

And not alienate them with direct re-recordings.. like in ROTS, KOTCS...

[Faleel 5,350]

Also its appearance in Talk of Podracing play when Qui-Gon's "cover is blown" on being a Jedi Knight, just like it plays in TFA when Finn reveals that he was a Stormtrooper.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

it's a strech.

 

Kind of intrincate LOTR thematical connection....but unneeded...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

bloodboal and faleel...you could post what you think of the 'across the stars' reference...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

8 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

I think it's bullshit.

I knew you would post exactly those words. amazing! or maybe not. Just predictable

[nightscape94 965]

16 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

I think it's bullshit.

 

I think you're a dickhead for posting that.

[artguy360 1,843]

3 hours ago, Faleel said:

Its a discussion (like in Talk of Podracing and The Queen Confronts Nute and Rune), and its a confrontation (like in The Queen Confronts Nute and Rune)

Ah, so it's JW's discussion style of music. Because it is so close to the music we hear in TPM, I feel it is not one of the numerous musical coincidences that do exist elsewhere in SW. Maybe JW just wanted a small musical callback to the PT without any thematic link and felt that music fit the moment.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Lincoln should have been a 2 hour suite of his 'Discussion Theme.'

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

On 7/2/2016 at 6:44 PM, Luke Skywalker said:

 

wait wait wait.

 

And arent the strings in the forefront quoting a passage from across the stars too????

 

Torn appart 2:14-2:20

 

Across the stars concert version: 4:01-4:21 (the melody is played twice)

OK, i think this time i got it. The across the stars reference is a coincidence.

 

But the 'lament' melody played in "torn appart" is a reprise of the 'lament' played in "The Starkiller" track!

 

Makes sense, as williams did the same in ROTS with Order 66  and anakin's attack to padme.

 

So what do you think now??

[Ludwig 1,120]

A huge thanks to Faleel for completing this mammoth amount of work - a fantastic resource that will serve everyone very well!

[Incanus 5,715]

1 hour ago, Ludwig said:

A huge thanks to Faleel for completing this mammoth amount of work - a fantastic resource that will serve everyone very well!

Ditto!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I feel a little ignored

 

I dont want to be an attention whore but has anyone checked what i said two posts above? If true...the theme should be included in the list...

 

I mean... everytime someone has posted some thematical conecction in this thread..it's been discussed... i have had to beg you to notice mine...

 

Ok, hissy fit off.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They tend to ignore people who don't have proper music/academic credentials.

Don't take it personal.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

thanks for the support, hehehe

 

 

 

[Datameister 2,043]

Your post was absolutely right - Williams reprised the Starkiller lament material in "Torn Apart", perhaps with a bit of Han and Leia's love theme subtly included, but no "Across the Stars", although there is some similarity.

 

No offense, but the lack of responses was probably just because no one had anything to say...the return of that material in "Torn Apart" is pretty blatant, haha!

[Ludwig 1,120]

What Steef says about ignoring people without credentials is simply not true - certainly not for me. I saw this but haven't had time to devote to it. I thought someone else would comment, but didn't probably because of what Data said.

 

I agree with Data - it's similar to Across the Stars, but not a reference. You'll notice what's missing is the drop down of a 6th (the fourth note of the motif you cite from Across the Stars). Without that, it's really not the same figure since that's such a memorable part of that motif. For motifs (or dare I say themes), there should be enough of a resemblance to say "yes, that's definitely the same thing" rather than, "well maybe". Motifs are a bit like names - you can recognize them if they're characteristic portions are retained, like how "Liz" and "Beth" are both characteristic parts of "Elizabeth". But "Eli" not so much since that could be part of several other names. The Torn Apart motif strikes me as more of an "Eli" rather than a "Liz".

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I was half joking about being ignored, no offense taken, if anyone was wondering

 

BTW, yes now i think the across the stars thing was not an intentional reference, it's just a passing similaritie, but I didnt knew the starkiller 'lament' reprise was known, since it does not appear in faleel's list (the track 'starkiller' is absent from the list)... Maybe it was mentioned in another thread (the actual OST thread) and i had not read it... (sorry )

 

 

 

On 16/12/2015 at 2:21 AM, Faleel said:

THE PHANTOM MENACE

The Ultimate Edition (2 CD's)

 

Darth Sidious and Darth Maul
0:25 Dark Side?

 

ATTACK OF THE CLONES
Confrontation with Count Dooku and Finale
0:51 Dark Side Motif (Prequels)
 

REVENGE OF THE SITH

Padme's Ruminations

1:36 Dark Side Motif (From TPM and AOTC)

 

I mentioned years ago that that little fanfare in TPM could be the same dark side motif. People was not convinced at the time, but i'm glad i'm not alone

 

 

 

On 16/12/2015 at 2:21 AM, Faleel said:

The phantom Menace OST

 

The Funeral of Qui-Gon

0:06 Jedi Funeral

0:26 The Force Theme
0:34 Jedi Funeral

 

Return of the Jedi SE

 

The Emperor Arrives / The Death of Yoda / Obi-Wan's Revelation
7:04 Yoda's Theme

7:14 'Jedi funeral'?
7:33 The Force Theme

 

The Battle of Endor II (Leia Is Wounded / The Duel Begins / Overtaking the Bunker / The Dark Side Beckons / The Emperor's Death)
3:49 The Dark Side

5:03 'Jedi Funeral'?
5:37 The Force Theme

What about this?

 

I think Yoda's death has a thematical connection with the climax of dark side beckons...

 

And could Williams have based Qui-gon's funeral on Yoda's death?
The similarity is further on the instrumental only version in Padme's death.

[Incanus 5,715]

11 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I feel a little ignored

 

I dont want to be an attention whore but has anyone checked what i said two posts above? If true...the theme should be included in the list...

 

I mean... everytime someone has posted some thematical conecction in this thread..it's been discussed... i have had to beg you to notice mine...

 

Ok, hissy fit off.

Yes the elegy material from Star Killer is quoted in passing in Torn Apart. To me there is definitely a connection between that material and Kylo Ren. And yes I noticed your comments Manuel! You are still relevant.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

So what is Kylo Ren's "hesitant motif" again?  

[Datameister 2,043]

You can hear it several times right before his main theme in the end credits. It's that short melody that starts by repeating the same note several times and then descends.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

You can hear it several times right before his main theme in the end credits. It's that short melody that starts by repeating the same note several times and then descends.

That one?  I don't hear much hesitance in there.  More a building sense of dread.

[Incanus 5,715]

22 minutes ago, Mr. Big said:

That one?  I don't hear much hesitance in there.  More a building sense of dread.

Williams mentioned that this theme describes Kylo Ren's conflicting emotions and inner turmoil. He is constantly pulled by his need to be a worthy successor to Darth Vader and his fear that he won't live up to him and his inner struggle between the light and dark. It is an angry, frustrated could one say tortured side of the character but the simple passage takes many orchestrational guises to reflect his mood although it mostly remains in the bottom registers of the ensemble. I think it compliment's Kylo's exclamatory fanfare very nicely but with a tinge of tragedy, all captured quite succinctly by this simple figure.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

25 minutes ago, Incanus said:

Williams mentioned that this theme describes Kylo Ren's conflicting emotions and inner turmoil. He is constantly pulled by his need to be a worthy successor to Darth Vader and his fear that he won't live up to him and his inner struggle between the light and dark. It is an angry, frustrated could one say tortured side of the character but the simple passage takes many orchestrational guises to reflect his mood although it mostly remains in the bottom registers of the ensemble. I think it compliment's Kylo's exclamatory fanfare very nicely but with a tinge of tragedy, all captured quite succinctly by this simple figure.

Any time stamps for some of the more subtle moments?

[leeallen01 2,136]

4 hours ago, Mr. Big said:

Any time stamps for some of the more subtle moments?

 

3:44 - 4:03 in Han and Leia.

 

I also hear it at 0:00 - 0:20 in Track 6 of the FYC album.

[Datameister 2,043]

5 hours ago, Mr. Big said:

That one?  I don't hear much hesitance in there.  More a building sense of dread.

 

Yeah, "hesitant" isn't the word I would have chosen, either. I guess I can hear it more in the quieter statements, for instance in "Han and Leia" or near the end of the FYC's "Finn's Trek", but to me it seems to best represent Ben's turn to the dark side - it's about the tragic transformation of this character, whereas his main theme is more of the exclamatory "I'm a bad guy!" sort of thing.

 

Incidentally, one time I accidentally put words to that main theme and now I can't help hearing them every time: "I'm Kylo Ren, bitch...I'm Kylo Ren."

[leeallen01 2,136]

I can't stop thinking that the tragic theme in 'Starkiller' and it's reprisal in 'Torn Apart' is actually Kylo Ren's tragic theme. I keep hearing Ren's tragic theme in the Starkiller Piece. They both descend of course but they sound like they are meant to be the same. It makes sense because both scenes are about Ren. He is watching the Starkiller base as it fires the weapon, and in its reprisal for when he fully turns to the dark side on the bridge.

[Datameister 2,043]

Sorry - it'd make sense, but it's just not there in the music. Melodically, harmonically, and even rhythmically, they just aren't the same. The only thing they have in common is the fact that the melody moves down a semitone at least once in each...but that also describes the Raiders March and any number of other melodies.

[artguy360 1,843]

I remember when TFA soundtrack first released a lot of people felt The Resistance March was almost more fitting for a bad guy march. While I disagree, it definitely has a determination and maybe even harshness to it. I think it's interesting because in his radio interview JW describes it as the theme for "a radical group that wants to bring the jedi back to power." Maybe that's why he gave it the characterization that he did. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

29 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

I remember when TFA soundtrack first released a lot of people felt The Resistance March was almost more fitting for a bad guy march. While I disagree, it definitely has a determination and maybe even harshness to it. I think it's interesting because in his radio interview JW describes it as the theme for "a radical group that wants to bring the jedi back to power." Maybe that's why he gave it the characterization that he did. 

I never thought it sounded like a bad guy March.  It sounds militaristic and pompous but never villainous.  

[Datameister 2,043]

Doesn't sound villainous to me, but it's definitely different from Williams' usual "good guy" music. And it's not that far off from something like the Nazi march from TLC, which in that context did sound outright villainous. Regardless, I really like it and I think it suits the film well.

[artguy360 1,843]

Yeah I don't think it's villainous but it has a different kind of edge to it and I think that's the radical element that JW wanted to give the music.

[leeallen01 2,136]

The opening notes of the Resistance March are basically the same as his Nazi themes' opening notes, (heard at 0:50 in 'Brother Of The Crucifrom Sword') so I can't help but hear a slight villainy in there, but as the Resistance March continues up the notes and becomes more of a fanfare on the high brass, it is immediately heroic.

[Faleel 5,350]

Well you can also hear some Trade Federation too.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Where?

[Faleel 5,350]

Added an additional appearance of a theme under "The Moisture Farm":

 

Quote

1:45 Dies Irae (Fate Motif?)

 

On 2/18/2016 at 5:01 AM, Stefancos said:

Where?

March of the Resistance:

0:06

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

On 11/2/2016 at 9:22 PM, Luke Skywalker said:

I was half joking about being ignored, no offense taken, if anyone was wondering

 

BTW, yes now i think the across the stars thing was not an intentional reference, it's just a passing similaritie, but I didnt knew the starkiller 'lament' reprise was known, since it does not appear in faleel's list (the track 'starkiller' is absent from the list)... Maybe it was mentioned in another thread (the actual OST thread) and i had not read it... (sorry )

 

 

 

 

I mentioned years ago that that little fanfare in TPM could be the same dark side motif. People was not convinced at the time, but i'm glad i'm not alone

 

 

 

What about this?

 

I think Yoda's death has a thematical connection with the climax of dark side beckons...

 

And could Williams have based Qui-gon's funeral on Yoda's death?
The similarity is further on the instrumental only version in Padme's death.

I think this passed out of everyone's radar...

 

 

again

 

(why my original message is not fully quoted? strange...)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

You noticed only now that when quoting a message, thise erases the quotes that were in that message? It's one of the most annoying features of the new forum!

 

As for your question... I'll let someone else answer!

[Jay 37,367]

Its a very stupid "feature".  I mean, I can see why some boards would want it, but I wish it was an option you could turn on or off if you do want it!

 

That's the most annoying thing about this board upgrade; The removed a lot of options and force a lot of things to be "their way".   

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

damn...i hoped it wass my fault about having incorrect settings...

[Pieter Boelen 740]

The opening post is not supposed to be complete yet, is it?

There's definitely at least one thematic statement still missing for The Force Awakens (maybe more):

 

Rey Meets BB-8

01:09 Resistance March (matches with the melody at 01:45 in March of the Resistance)