Will The Hobbit age as well as The Lord of the Rings?

[Jay 37,364]

5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Hard to believe the film ends only 6 minutes after Bilbo farewells the dwarves, especially considering how strong Freeman was in his portrayal of Bilbo. Jackson seemed so distracted with all the extraneous characters, all the technological improvements, all the distractions from the core of the story, that he didn't even realise the strength of his own actors.

 

The heart of the story was always Bilbo. The most touching scenes all involve Bilbo. Yet he's a supporting actor in his own movie.

 

Well said on all points!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[bollemanneke 3,348]

To answer the original thread question, I'm not even going to grace the films with an answer.

 

I honestly wanted to love the scores and remember looking forward to them. The first trailers were so promising: the Misty Mountains music clearly told us this was going to be a hell of an adventure. And that's my biggest problem with the scores.

 

The first score really worked for me in the film. The OST didn't. I just listened to a few AUJ tracks. The Concerning Hobbits performance feels so uninspired! Everything feels obligatory, and let's not mention the horrible sound mix. The MM theme is unbelievable and fits the entire quest perfectly. I even remember my 'company' nudging each other every time it came up in the theatre. I'm not someone who goes berserk every time Hedwig's Theme comes up in every Fantastic Beasts trailer at all, but MM just had everything: it was noble, spoke of a historic quest and felt purposeful. 

 

And then DOS came along. Suddenly we're no longer in an adventure, we're in a horror score. What happened there? I just can't overemphasise my disappointment when I heard that score. By now, the Erebor theme was getting more and more repetitive. Laketown was very nice, but where did the Misty Mountains go? The reasons for its absence I've read so far all seem ridiculous:

- There is no longer a company. Oh right, there are only twelve left now.

- This score is meant to reflect uncharted territory. What, was everything in AUJ planned beforehand? For Bilbo, everything was unfamiliar from day one.

- It only symbolises the misty mountains. So why include it in the troll fight?

The total dismissal of that theme is unforgivable for me. Sons of Durin and Feast of Starlight are certainly enjoyable, but it feels completely out-of-place compared to the dissonant majority of the cues.

 

BOTFA wasn't bad, but just like with DOS, I kept hoping for more. The only moment I truly imagined myself to be in Middle Earth was when the choir underscored Smaug talking to Bard. After that, we're back with more gloomy music. How exactly did this entire story turn from quest to 'we're all in it together, better make the best of this mess, guys.'? The Eagles material again sounds dull, whereas the AUJ cue felt exhilerating. The ending also feels weird. Bilbo might have changed, but we're in the Shire again, make it a little more airy! The final notes of the scores are so unsatisfying, as if they are compelling you to watch LOTR, as if the three scores are not meant to stand on their own.

 

I'm not saying I'm 100% in love with every single LOTR track, but there were so many good moments to make up for possible boring moments. I lost interest in the middle of ROTK, but then you have For Frodo (and that's a doom moment too). The Last March of the Ents, Glamdring... you name it, there's so much enthusiasm in there, so much fervour! Compared to those cues, the Hobbit feels so... empty.

 

So, in short, for me the Hobbit scores are a footnote that annoys me more than anything else. There aregood moments, but overall, they didn't meet my expectations at all (AUJ succeeded very well there). Maybe it's because I want these scores to be like LOTR. CRS might change my feelings. Some themes are outstanding, but they just don't feel cohesive. Rant over.

[Jay 37,364]

Wow, nice post!  I agree with a lot of your sentiments.

 

But, the re-tread of Shire material at the start of the AUJ OST and film is deliberate, the score certain becomes much more original once Bilbo steps out his front door!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[mstrox 6,651]

I think just one reprise of the theme in BOFA (heroic during the battle or mournful/somber somewhere in the aftermath/return) would have worked wonders in connecting the scores of the trilogy.  Of course, the same could be said about any number of themes from AUJ which virtually disappeared in the same manner.

[Jay 37,364]

23 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I think just one reprise of the theme in BOFA (heroic during the battle or mournful/somber somewhere in the aftermath/return) would have worked wonders in connecting the scores of the trilogy. 

 

YES!!

 

23 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Of course, the same could be said about any number of themes from AUJ which virtually disappeared in the same manner.

 

Yes

[bollemanneke 3,348]

So, in the end, what WOULD be a satisfying and logical reason for the total MM dismissal? What does the theme ultimately stand for? I guess I already know the answer to this, but could Shore's slightly advanced age have something to do with this? Or are these scores just too intellectual and am I hoping for too much entertainment?

[mstrox 6,651]

3 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

So, in the end, what WOULD be a satisfying and logical reason for the total MM dismissal?

 

By directorial or studio decree, the Misty Mountains theme was used more heavily than Shore would have wanted in AUJ, including its big presentation immediately after Rivendell.  Shore maybe found its usefulness lacking and/or preferred to generate his own material instead of working with somebody else's.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Shore wrote House Of Durin as the evolution of MM.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I agree with that, thought it's a shame we never got to have some sort of transition from one theme to the next.

[gkgyver 1,645]

What would the transition be? You either Write an evolution of a theme or you don't. 

[Jay 37,364]

18 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

So, in the end, what WOULD be a satisfying and logical reason for the total MM dismissal? What does the theme ultimately stand for? I guess I already know the answer to this, but could Shore's slightly advanced age have something to do with this? Or are these scores just too intellectual and am I hoping for too much entertainment?

 

The theme in AUJ is used to represent the company, and their quest for Erebor.  In DOS and BOFA, the House of Durin theme accomplishes the same thing.

 

Originally, when there was only 2 films, and film 1 ended just before the dwarves reach Lake-town, MM would have been used throughout all of Film 1, and once the Prophecy stuff is mentioned at Lake-town, House of Durin would takeover gracefully from there in Film 2 as their main theme.

 

However, when the film got split into 3, we now only have MM being used through the Frying Pan sequence, with the trek through Beorn's, Mirkwood, and The Woodlan Realm is essentially absent of any theme for the company, until House of Durin takes over halfway through DOS at Lake-town.

 

PJ splitting the films from 2 into 3 caused many more problems than just this one, of course.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

I guess there could have been some sort of specific association between the two themes at one point. You hear one and then the other as an "echo" or something. Musically and dramatically communicating that they're related.

 

As it is, since MM is never acknowledged again at all, you could argue that House of Durin comes across more like "replacement" than "evolution."

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

38 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

I guess there could have been some sort of specific association between the two themes at one point. You hear one and then the other as an "echo" or something. Musically and dramatically communicating that they're related.

 

Yea, that would have been nice!

 

38 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

 

As it is, since MM is never acknowledged again at all, you could argue that House of Durin comes across more like "replacement" than "evolution."

 

Yea, exactly

 

35 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

This.

 

Although one could say Thorin's theme acts as a theme for the Company in the first half of DOS (used for when the Company rides to Mirkwood Forest, during Bombur's Bombastic Barrel Ride Bonanza and for when the Company first sees Erebor).

 

Yea, Thorin's theme is used as the big moment for Bofur's Barrell Ride because... what else was Shore gonna use when he couldn't use MM and it wouldn't have made sense to use Durin yet?

PJ splitting the films really damaged the scores as much as if not more so than the films.

 

34 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said:

One thing shore excels at is how cohesive the works feel, particularly DOS and BOTFA (the directorial/studio disagreements from AUJ are an unfortunate reality). I honestly can't listen to the OSTs without thinking how truly unappreciated the music is. I put on BOTFA and am consistently blown away by Fire and Water.

 

As much as BOFA overall fails to wow me or connect with me emotionally much, Fire and Water is an amazing, absolutely 5 star track that is one of my favorite pieces of both the trilogy and the six score saga.  Cracking music!

[gkgyver 1,645]

6 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

I guess there could have been some sort of specific association between the two themes at one point. You hear one and then the other as an "echo" or something. Musically and dramatically communicating that they're related.

 

As it is, since MM is never acknowledged again at all, you could argue that House of Durin comes across more like "replacement" than "evolution."

 

If a theme develops into something new, why would the previous version appear again? It defies the whole point of evolution.

[Gollum Cat 24]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

As much as BOFA overall fails to wow me or connect with me emotionally much, Fire and Water is an amazing, absolutely 5 star track that is one of my favorite pieces of both the trilogy and the six score saga.  Cracking music!

 

Especially the film version, edited slightly for cohesiveness. There are some fantastic thematic statements that were left off the CDs.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

9 hours ago, SafeUnderHill said:

Isn't that the Erebor theme? Thorin's theme is used when they're climbing the mountain.

 

Yeah, my bad. I misremembered that part.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

It's a very interesting thought that MM became House of Durin. The only problem I have with that is that you really can't tell the two are connected because the melodies don't resemble each other, and as has been pointed out, they are never associated. Does this mean that MM never meant to include Bilbo, that MM basically represented the same dwarf patriotism/family pride than Durin's theme?

 

Also, Jay, when you say Shore 'couldn't' use MM during the barrel sequence, what do you mean by that? It seems PJ and the studio loved MM, so why would Shore be unable to use it? Also, isn't it up to a composer like Shore to adapt his approach from two films to three? He just seems too intelligent to simply replace one theme with another.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

4 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

It's a very interesting thought that MM became House of Durin. The only problem I have with that is that you really can't tell the two are connected because the melodies don't resemble each other, and as has been pointed out, they are never associated. Does this mean that MM never meant to include Bilbo, that MM basically represented the same dwarf patriotism/family pride than Durin's theme?

 

Also, Jay, when you say Shore 'couldn't' use MM during the barrel sequence, what do you mean by that? It seems PJ and the studio loved MM, so why would Shore be unable to use it? Also, isn't it up to a composer like Shore to adapt his approach from two films to three? He just seems too intelligent to simply replace one theme with another.

 

The two themes are based on the same chords, have the same start, and have a similar shape.

In the same key:

 

MM: D3 F G Bb C D4 C Bb A G

HoD: D3 F G G A A D4

 

What I would like to know is whether Shore had the current HoD theme all along, or whether he wrote a new one in line with MM After he had to use it alot in the score, for the sake of continuity.

[Jay 37,364]

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

It's a very interesting thought that MM became House of Durin. The only problem I have with that is that you really can't tell the two are connected because the melodies don't resemble each other, and as has been pointed out, they are never associated.

 

I never meant to imply the melodies were related at all, nor that there was a specific correlation between them.  The first thing I should point out, because I can't remember if you know this or not, is that the Misty Mountains theme was not written by Howard Shore, but by Plan 9 - the NZ group who did the diagetic music for all six Middle Earth films.  The lyrics to the song the dwarves sing in Bilbo's house is of course straight from Tolkien, but when they were going to sing it on set, it needed a melody, and it was Plan 9 that came up with that melody.  Then Howard Shore did an orchestral version of the melody for the trailer.  Then it was decided that the MM theme should be used in the score as a theme for the company, despite the fact that Shore had already written a theme for them (the one that opens "The Edge of the Wild" on the AUJ SE OST).  So MM was peppered in throughout the score, usually as a "call to action" for the company as they fought off bad guys.  

 

Shore wrote music for a huge portions of Film 1 when there was only 2 films planned, including the entire section in The Woodland Realm, and MM would have been used there, and surely it would have been used during Flies and Spiders and The Barrell Chase as well.  I'm assuming the planned grand finale version of MM would have been some heroic moment during the barrel chase.

We don't know exactly how Film 1 originally ended - I assume a similar version of the "Thorin accepts Bilbo now" moment that ends AUJ - or how Shore would have scored it, but I doubt House of Durin would have appeared yet, since according to the audio commentary Film 1 orignally ended as a cliffhanger with Bard pointing his arrow at the company on the side of the river.  Likewise, we don't know if there would have been a scene before the idea of the prophecy was introduced that featured MM leading into House of Durin . We'll just never know was Shore's original plans were, in all likelihood.

 

 

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Does this mean that MM never meant to include Bilbo, that MM basically represented the same dwarf patriotism/family pride than Durin's theme?

 

Bilbo has his own set of themes, but whether or not Shore would have used MM for some heroic Bilbo moment after Frying Pan and before Erebor, we'll probably never know.

 

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Also, Jay, when you say Shore 'couldn't' use MM during the barrel sequence, what do you mean by that? It seems PJ and the studio loved MM, so why would Shore be unable to use it?

 

All I mean is that it was decided (by whom, I have no idea) not to use MM at all in DOS or BOFA, so the barrel cue doesn't feature it.  I'm sure it would have were the scene still in Film 1 of 2, of course.

 

 

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Also, isn't it up to a composer like Shore to adapt his approach from two films to three? He just seems too intelligent to simply replace one theme with another.

 

Film scores are a collaboration between the composer and the director (and depending on the film, other parties as well).  Of course Shore could have his own intentions, and with a large enough amount of time and budget, he could choose to write and record his version and the director's version (which seems to be more or less what happened on AUJ).  But with DOS and BOFA, evidence seems to indicate there wasn't that many alternates recorded, so it seems Shore just did his job professionally, and used whatever themes PJ wanted him to.

This is partial speculation of course, no one knows the intimate details of the scoring process of these films, but there's no denying the facts that Shore set up a large family of themes in AUJ that were completely abandoned in the subsequent films.  The reasons why, we may never fully know.

 

 

 

[gkgyver 1,645]

Some were abandoned, but certainly not completely. You can still hear Dwarf Lords in Dain's theme for example. I don't think you should count the theme sketches in the bonus section of the AUJ OST, since they didn't end up in the finished score in that form, or at all. I mean, you wouldn't wonder why certain thematic ideas from the Rarities didn't end up in the LotR Films. It's a creative process until you end up with a finished score.

The indications that there was a Shake up between AUJ and the rest are in small details and motifs. Like the aching low strings theme that is introduced in the final third of My Dear Frodo, and which disappears completely in DoS or BOFA.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

@Bloodboal: I can live with that distinction (MM =journey, Durin =the rest.)

 

@Jay: That was helpful. It's starting to make sense to me now. I'm just left with an incomplete feeling towards these three scores because of all the continuity issues. The 'call to action' appraoch, as you call it, worked so unbelievably perfect in AUJ that the decision to drop it, for whatever reason, seems so ridiculous that I wouldn't even have considered it possible.

[Jay 37,364]

Peter Jackson lost his mind once the film was split from 2 to 3.  The films suffered, and the scores suffered.  It's a big damn shame!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

2 hours ago, SafeUnderHill said:

I think the MM theme is clearly about the adventure and drive of their quest whereas House of Durin is about the royal line reclaiming power and it's ultimate fate.

 

Totally agree

 

Shore could have absolutely found a spot to stick in MM while still mostly using House of Durin were he inclined / were he able to, for sure.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

My favorite theme of the entire saga!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[oierem 152]

No matter how much you try to rationalize it, the truth is that the "main popular theme" from the first Hobbit movie is totally absent from the rest of the trilogy. Which does hurt the musical continuity of the trilogy (the MM theme does not "evolve" in any way into another theme) and makes the next two scores less accessible to the general audience.

And the truth is, if the MM theme had been composed by Shore, it would've been used as a major theme through the whole trilogy.

And it would've been considered a great theme by film music fans (as it was when the first trailer was released and everyone thought it was composed by Shore).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

5 minutes ago, oierem said:

And the truth is, if the MM theme had been composed by Shore, it would've been used as a major theme through the whole trilogy.

 

You don't know that!  What a huge leap you are taking here!

[Quintus 5,399]

How many years afterwards then can the disappointment of these movies and their scores be lamented? Is it an ongoing struggle? Don't you all tire of repeating the same complaints over and over, as if sitting on a sickly rotating carousel of debate repetition?

 

Let these failures rest, move on with your lives!

[Jay 37,364]

If you don't want to participate in the conversation, don't.

 

Thanks!

[Quintus 5,399]

I don't want to participate in conversations between trainspotters either, but I'm still free to share my view on them. Oh and I will! 

[KK 3,307]

Lee is not wrong though. The Tolkien subforum seems to be going through the motions.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

11 minutes ago, KK said:

The Tolkien subforum seems to be going through the motions.

 

Only in regards to the Hobbit films, possibly.

 

There's been lots of great discussion of Shore's LOTR scores recently!

[bollemanneke 3,348]

Why are people actively reading discussions that annoy them? Also, I've never participated in any Hobbit continuity conversation. It's not because one person reads/particpates in a discussion that others can't continue it.

[Jay 37,364]

9 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Why are people actively reading discussions that annoy them?

 

I'll never understand that!

 

9 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Also, I've never participated in any Hobbit continuity conversation. It's not because one person reads/particpates in a discussion that others can't continue it.

 

Exactly!!

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

These films already haven't aged as well as LOTR.  Less than two years out and they aren't part of the pop culture landscape at all. 

 

Let's put it this way. I was just thinking that I'd love to see a thread called "Worst Scene in The Hobbit trilogy" and supposed it could go for pages of debate with no two people listing the same scene. I don't think the LOTR would support such a thread at all.

[oierem 152]

8 hours ago, Jay said:

 

You don't know that!  What a huge leap you are taking here!

 

A stronger argument could be made against the use of the Fellowship theme in TTT and RTOK: the theme shouldn't appear because the fellowship is broken......

But the truth is that the Fellowship theme because THE theme of the first movie, a theme that worked and was accessible to the audience.... and therefore (surprise!) it was heavily used in the sequels (with appropriate modifications, of course).

[gkgyver 1,645]

No, the fellowship theme was used because it represents the fellowship and the bonds between members of the fellowship, and the spirit of the fellowship. 

You may not accept it, but Shore's approach to LotR was not as superficial as "fellowship torn apart, ergo no more theme". 

 

The most accessible and recognizable music was the Shire music anyway.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, the Fellowship theme is more well known 

[gkgyver 1,645]

Nope.