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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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Someone please explain how the First Order had their only known base destroyed (Starkiller), and yet the opening crawl says they have gone on to conquer and control the galaxy...

 

WHEN did they have time for that?

 

Did they conquer the galaxy during the time that Rey and Luke were staring at each other on the cliff-top? Makes absolutely no sense.

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Just now, leeallen01 said:

Someone please explain how the First Order had their only known base destroyed (Starkiller),

 

There's absolutely nothing in TFA that suggests that's the only First Order base. 

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2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Yeah All films have some awful, groining humour.  TFA might fare the best of all in that department.

 

JJ’s movie was a religious fanboy film. Too much reverence if anything. He probably sees a Wookiee saying garbage smells as the pinnacle of haha. 

 

Literally dying of laughter there. 

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2 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Someone please explain how the First Order had their only known base destroyed (Starkiller), and yet the opening crawl says they have gone on to conquer and control the galaxy...

 

WHEN did they have time for that?

 

Did they conquer the galaxy during the time that Rey and Luke were staring at each other on the cliff-top? Makes absolutely no sense.

 

Yep another good point!

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2 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Yoda didn't burn books!

 

"Have everything she needs, Rey already has."  ZAP, BURN,

 

Books are clearly shown on the Falcon at the end of the movie.

 

That's what Yoda was talking about with that line? The books? So Rey can learn to be a Jedi from book?

 

Tell that to the Karate Kid!

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1 minute ago, Jay said:

 

Yep another good point!

 

No! The fucking crawl spells it out. With all the Republic planets destroyed by the fucking Starkiller, the First Order had little resistane!

 

Pay attention!

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7 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Yoda is a Nazi. It's official canon.

 

Yoda worked for me in this film, although the first couple of shots he looks like he had plastic surgery in his cheeks for some reason.

 

I love the shot where he and Luke are sitting in front of the burning tree.

 

The humor there, I found extremly funny, too: "The sacred Jedi texts" - "Have you read them? Page-turners they were not." Although thinking about it, it isn't consistent with Yoda's grammar, as are large parts of the dialogue in this film.

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@leeallen01 I concur with your point on the revival of the First Order. In ESB it was clear that the Death Star was merely one base in the Empire's arsenal with the entire galaxy still under their thumb after it was destroyed. In The Force Awakens it seemed as though the First Order were only a remnant of the ashes of the Empire. A small incursion of imperial loyalists so It's a bit of a leap in logic for The Last Jedi for it to have grown to the effect of almost dominating the galaxy once again, but I guess they try to brush it off because of war profiteering on both sides and across the galaxy.

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9 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

No! The fucking crawl spells it out. With all the Republic planets destroyed by the fucking Starkiller, the First Order had little resistane!

 

Pay attention!

 

 

So they took over the whole galaxy between Rey holding out the lightsaber and Luke taking it then? About 7 seconds.

 

I've got to give it to the First Order. They're fast.

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1 minute ago, leeallen01 said:

 

 

So they took over the whole galaxy between Rey holding out the litghtsaber and Luke taking it then? About 7 seconds.

 

I've got to give it to the First Order. They're fast.

 

No, they did so after destroying the Republic in TFA. 

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For me, the whole Yoda scene was flawless. Yoda showed he is still playful, yet wise. His dialogue was good. Their chemistry on-screen was still there. It gave me major flashbacks to how Mark made the puppet feel real by his interactions with it. Yoda gave advice and Luke was humbled by his presence. And that Concert arrqngement of Yoda was gorgeous with the soft harp ending as the scene ended. Loved it.

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Who says they started overtaking the Republic at that moment? Between the First Order destroying the Republic and this movie, there was a battle on Takodana, the gang went to D'Qar spent a few hours there, then to Starkiller Base, destroyed it, went back to D'Quar spent another day or two, then Rey went to Ahch-to. We have no idea how long any of the hyperspace routs took, but for everyone else not travelling near or over lightspeed, it took a lot longer.

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When I saw TFA, I thought it was possible an untold amount of time (possibly days, weeks, or months) passed between them destroying the Starkiller, and Rey taking off for Luke's island.


But this is betrayed in TLJ by the pointless and awkward scene at the end of TLJ, when Rey and Poe introduce themselves to each other.  That implies she didn't hang around the Resistance base for more than an hour or so, because of course she would have met Poe had she spent any time there.  There would have been speeches, maybe a little award ceremony, dinners, meet and greets, etc, etc all the rebels would know each other.  


But no, Rian put in that silly scene or Rey and Poe introducing themselves, implying she basically flew away from the Starkiller, changed her clothes, and headed right back out in the Falcon for Luke's island.  So yea, no time passed between the movies at all.

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14 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Yoda worked for me in this film, although the first couple of shots he looks like he had plastic surgery in his cheeks for some reason.

 

I love the shot where he and Luke are sitting in front of the burning tree.

 

The humor there, I found extremly funny, too: "The sacred Jedi texts" - "Have you read them? Page-turners they were not." Although thinking about it, it isn't consistent with Yoda's grammar, as are large parts of the dialogue in this film.

 

The Yoda scene was one of the few scenes that gave me a (positive) emotional reaction (in no small thanks to Williams). Which after all is what it was designed to do.

 

But like much of this movie, the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me.  The Yoda who was so adamant for Luke to "complete his training" is now content to basically say "meh, Rey's good".  

 

But again, Williams completely brings it in this scene. Gorgeous.

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2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

No, they did so after destroying the Republic in TFA. 

 

But they destroyed the republic and instantly captured Rey, she escaped within moments, and she was rescued within hours. So they still took over the galaxy in about a day.

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8 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

 

 

So they took over the whole galaxy between Rey holding out the lightsaber and Luke taking it then? About 7 seconds.

 

I've got to give it to the First Order. They're fast.

 

If you were a true Star Wars fan, you would know that planets strong with the force like Ahch-to and Dagobah tend to warp the passage of time. An excellent bit of canonic trivia to overcome the sloppy chronology in ESB and now TLJ!

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5 minutes ago, Jay said:

When I saw TFA, I thought it was possible an untold amount of time (possibly days, weeks, or months) passed between them destroying the Starkiller, and Rey taking off for Luke's island.


But this is betrayed in TLJ by the pointless and awkward scene at the end of TLJ, when Rey and Poe introduce themselves to each other.

 

YES!

 

Oh, and if this becomes the seed of a romance of any kind, I'll punch the screen!

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2 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

If you were a true Star Wars fan, you would know that planets strong with the force like Ahch-to and Dagobah tend to warp the passage of time.

 

BleakYellowGonolek-small.gif

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Just now, Chen G. said:

 

YES!

 

If this becomes the seed of a romance of any kind, I'll punc the screen!

 

Nah Rey will get jealous that she hasn't got Finn drueling over her, so she'll challenge Rose to a faceoff and Williams will make an action mash up of Rey vs Rose. 

Just now, Blumenkohl said:

 

It’s canon!

 

It isn't mentioned at all in any Star Wars film, so it doesn't count.

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Did anyone think that kid at the end staring at the nightsky looked an awful lot like the "Master Skywalker, there are too many of them. What are we going to do?" Kid.

1 minute ago, BloodBoal said:

 

And they will call their first child Balance.

 

 But it's actually pronounced Bal-on-say. 

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Its clear Kylo wanted her to join him in more ways than one, and than there's the shirtless scene (WHY?!). But we also have her looking on Finn taking care of the incapacitated Rose, and that wierd introduction between Rey and Poe.

 

Each of these moments could serve JJ Abrams to create a love story or love triangle.

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1 minute ago, leeallen01 said:

Did anyone think that kid at the end staring at the nightsky looked an awful lot like the "Master Skywalker, there are too many of them. What are we going to do?" Kid.

 

Don't get me going on the ending and that kid.

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17 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

No, they did so after destroying the Republic in TFA. 

 

^^^^

 

I read that first paragraph of the crawl as a recap of TFA.  Starkiller Base destroyed the entire government seat of the Republic, and the Resistance is all that's left to fight it.

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I think Kylo turning would be backpedaling on everything Johnson was trying to say about him in TLJ.  He had a moment of contemplation.  He had a chance, with Rey.  But it wasn't turning - it was a successful power grab.  Same thing that the Sith were supposedly doing to each other for millennia, and that Vader offered to Luke in Empire - overthrow the master, join me, and WE will rule.

 

If anyone would backpedal, it would be Abrams, though (no diss, I like Abrams and love most of his movies).

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2 minutes ago, mstrox said:

it wasn't turning - it was a successful power grab.

 

True. He just used her to overthrow Snoke and kill the guards (and, as it turned out, blame it on her). At no point during the lightsaber fight with the guards does Kylo help her - she helps him, because she thinks that he is doing this out of a change-of-heart.

 

Thinking about it, she's quite naive in this film, isn't she?

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If one person wrote the main plot points for all 3, it would have been far better or at least made sense instead of being a mess. Johnson clearly didn't care about anything Abrams did. And Abrams wont care about anything Johnson did. So this trilogy will ultimately fail when looked at as one 3 part story.

 

Not just the big things, but even little character moments from TFA don't make sense anymore. For example, TFA emphasises the moment when Kylo finds out "a girl" took the droid. "WHAT GIRL?!" That was clearly intentional by Abrams to show that Kylo knows her. But he didn't so that line is pointless. 

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To be fair, unless a film series is all shot simultaneously (which, arguably, this trilogy should have been), its never written or even given much in the way of a story treatment from the outset. Its true of each of the Star Wars trilogies.

 

6 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Even Lucas redeemed Vader in ROTJ, so who knows.

 

Yeah, but Vader's crimes weren't as tactile as Kylo's. The worst tangiable evil deeds of his were the killing of Kenobi, the freezing of Han and cutting Luke's hand. Kylo performed an act of patricide onscreen.

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2 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

 Johnson clearly didn't care about anything Abrams did. 

 

That's an assumption on your part. Johnson continued where JJ left off in some ways, while doing something different in other ways.

That's what a good film maker does, he takes the material and puts his own spin on it. 

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19 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its clear Kylo wanted her to join him in more ways than one, and than there's the shirtless scene (WHY?!). But we also have her looking on Finn taking care of the incapacitated Rose, and that wierd introduction between Rey and Poe.

 

Each of these moments could serve JJ Abrams to create a love story or love triangle.

 

More like a love pentagon.

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Just now, Chen G. said:

Yeah, but Vader's crimes weren't as tactile as Kylo's. The worst tangiable evil deeds of his were the killing of Kenobi, the freezing of Han and cutting Luke's hand. Kylo performed as act of patricide onscreen.

 

He killed his wife, betrayed the Jedi who raised and trained him and killed a load of kids, yet he was redeemed.

 

People are not responsible for their actions if they are caused by the Dark Side of the Force, not in the SW universe.

 

Kylo will be redeemed!

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17 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

He killed his wife, betrayed the Jedi who raised and trained him and killed a load of kids, yet he was redeemed.

 

He didn't do it in 1983, when he was redeemed. He did that in 2005.

 

These things WEREN'T planned from the outset and we can't treat them as such, and even if they were - we as an audience didn't see them at the time. Film is a visual medium.

 

You can say that this universe has different morals, but they are so different its never going to ring true with us as an audience, because we can't fully divorce ourselves from our own sense of morality while watching this.

 

Its the same with Lucas going back and turning the Jedi order into this idle, zen, secluded/monastic group and inadvertantly making them completly unlikeable because they come across as lazy, strict and completly apathetic to the plight of people like Anakin, who fears for his loved ones.

 

Not that I think Kylo getting redeemed won't necessarily happen - Abrams could do that, but its going to be a dramatic misstep, is what I'm saying.

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