Score
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Posts posted by Score
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"The Jedi Steps", followed by "The Rebellion is Reborn". At the third place I would perhaps put "Scherzo for X-Wings". I'm not a big fan of the other pieces in the list.
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57 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:
So now all our jokes about torturing him look like a reaction to Powell praise.
You're despicable.
The only weapon you have is to... edit the jokes! But it would require a concerted effort.
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1 hour ago, KK said:
But with information now available all at once, all the time, there is almost too much or even nothing to "react" to. That's the problem with post-post-modernism (or wherever the hell we're at). Anything goes. There are no longer templates to follow or rules to be broken, and the old systems simply don't work.
Very well said. I always wonder how much of the evolution of music before the mass media / recording era was possible thanks to the fact that composers simply had much less music from their peers to listen to, than we have nowadays. In a sense, it's easier for a creative mind to find his/her own way if there are just a limited number of good models, rather than the whole production of every major composer of the past within a click's reach. Avoiding the feeling that "somebody has already done this in the best way that I can imagine" is essential even to start a creative effort.
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13 hours ago, Knox Harrington said:
I think I know what you mean and I agree. This is probably just the price of working for Hollywood. Even a craftsman from beginning to end like Williams has to deliver "the product" in that kind of environment. And forget about countless others who all share a handful of the same orchestrators which leads to an incredible homogeneity and polished shine on so much of what comes out of this town. Now contrast this with outsiders like Goldenthal, Shore, Morricone yada yada yada...from them you'll hear something which to me anyway seems far less assembly line produced.
So, if I understand correctly, you and @Loert are referring to the fact that JW basically does not experiment very much with orchestration and/or unconventional techniques? And, because of that, his works consistently sound very good (i.e., they run along established lines), but not "surprising". If this is the point, I understand it and agree to some extent. In fairness, the other composers that you mentioned experienced rather different working situations. For example, Morricone has hundreds of titles to his name, but many of them are rather small-sized scores, compared to an average JW one (in terms of the amount of music that needs to be physically written down). Then, Morricone had more time and possibilities to do unconventional stuff, and even some of his techniques in this regard allowed him to save further time. One of the techniques he experimented with, consists in a sort of modular composition, where he writes down a score for, say, three or four different ensembles that can play all simultaneously, or two at a time, or three at a time, etcetera. Then, he gets many different cues (or possibilities for the same cue, among which the director can choose) by just combining the ensembles in different ways (e.g., one cue will be that score played by ensembles 1 and 4, another cue the same score played by ensembles 2 and 3 and 4, and so on). An example is this piece, where he applied that principle sequentially:
Of course, such an approach would not work if the request is to write 2 hours of symphonic poem that should also match the action in the movie in some detail. It's just a different world of scoring and, indeed, I don't see much room in Hollywood for these things, at least nowadays. It's already amazing that JW has managed to write so much top quality stuff in such a relatively little amount of time.
- SingeMoisi and _deleted_
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5 hours ago, Loert said:
John Williams' film music sometimes feels like it's been "packaged" too much, like he's handing over some music which has been wrapped in shiny paper and tied with a pretty red ribbon rather than the raw music itself. I wish Williams would let his hair down once in a while (like in his concert works).
What do you mean with "packaged"?
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21 hours ago, TownerFan said:
New audio interview with Conrad Pope, talking about the music and the legacy of John Williams, the art form of film music and his life and career in the Hollywood film music community. It’s a fun one! Hope you all enjoy!
https://thelegacyofjohnwilliams.com/2019/04/26/conrad-pope-interview/
Thank you Maurizio, I really look forward to listening to this!
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8 hours ago, Jay said:
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The ending of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony and the ending of Wagner's Gotterdammerung are the first two that come to my mind.
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7 minutes ago, Mattris said:
Yes, it will be good when I am proven right.
I find it ironic that someone named 'Score' can't recognize the notes and themes that John Williams so carefully chose to hint at Rey's origin and/or destiny... foretold to him by JJ.
Although you said you would "disengage" from the conversation, you repeatedly feel the need to contradict me. I didn't bother reading your Battle of Hoth analysis since you have nothing to prove to me.
I've done my research and can see the writing on the wall, so it would probably be best if I contributed less... so as not to ruin the film/score surprises for most here.
Ok, enjoy the conversation with yourself then. Bye! I disengage for real.
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7 hours ago, Mattris said:
I was correct in my general observations. In addition to what I already noted, the end of the The Scavenger has the notes F#, D, B in that order. The F# is a half-step off from the G that would have formed the major triad from Vader Motif from The Imperial March,
Exactly because the F# is a half-step off from G, it's a different interval, so it doesn't form the major triad from Vader's motif. The similarity between the two short melodies (we are literally talking of fragments of 2-3 notes) can be reduced to saying that "the melody goes down, then up, then down again" in both cases. You need something more solid to say that a theme quotes another one.
Take this example, from the Battle of Hoth, starting at 1:41:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1riVCPmtJuY
In this case, we hear an obvious variation of the Imperial March (or Vader Motif, as you call it). The notes are Eb Eb Eb Cb Fb / Eb Cb Fb Eb. A literal statement of the march in the key of Eb minor would be Eb Eb Eb Cb Gb / Eb Cb Gb Eb. So, the melody is not identical (one note was lowered by a tone, twice), however there is no doubt as to what it is. Is this in any way similar to the situation with the fragment that you mention? Absolutely no, because in this case there are at least two elements that identify this as a variation of the theme: 1) the rhythm, which is identical to that of the model, and 2) the instrumentation (6 horns, of which 3 stopped and 3 natural), which relies on the brass, similarly to the model.
Now, in the case you are mentioning, 1) the melody is different, 2) the harmony is completely different, 3) the instrumentation is completely different, 4) the rhythm is completely different with respect to the model. So, they are just different.
7 hours ago, Mattris said:I already know I'm right, but it seems as though it will all have to be proven to you in December based on the contents of the film and its score. I have nothing else to say on the matter.
Good!
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So, is the rising Skywalker going to be... Rey?
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27 minutes ago, Mattris said:"All of the musical stuff"? How was I wrong? I hit the nail on the head.
The musical stuff is wrong and stays wrong, it was already explained to you. You drew conclusions based on wrong notes (the Scavenger fragment), not distinguishing between a major third and a minor third, seeing similarities based on fragments of just two notes, etcetera. Personally, the musical part of your analysis is the only thing I had objected to (except when you said that Anakin's theme quotes Vader's theme, which is true but also well known since 1999). On the other hand, you were right in predicting the return of the Emperor, which I also feel was a necessity because of the Darth Plagueis dialogue in the prequels.
- SteveMc, Nick Parker, Falstaft and 3 others
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51 minutes ago, crumbs said:
Well, in hindsight, LOL.
But you had both "Skywalkers" and "The Fate of the Skywalker" in your collection! Not bad!
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7 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:
New force powers are not the issue. I actually think force projection and force skype were decent ideas. Not well executed, but interesting concepts. The problem is introducing new things that affect previous films, such as lore alterations. Giving Yoda force lightening and the ability to destroy physical objects in the real world, has major implications when applied to Star Wars overall. Just like the holdo's lightspeed attack. Why didn't anyone ever try that ever before?
I hope I will not regret what I'm going to say, but... I've always thought that force ghosts really cannot affect anything in the real world, being a "presence" only for those who see them (for example, only Luke sees the trio at the end of ROTJ). In the case of the burning tree scene in TLJ, the lightning could be just a real event, while Luke's vision of Yoda could be his personal interpretation. In other words, an external observer would just see a normal lightning strike the tree, while in Luke's imagination, Yoda is casting the lightning.
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1 hour ago, Stefancos said:
Williams famously based Anakin's Theme on the structure of The Emperial March. As a nice foreshadowing hint This isnt new information. That doesnt mean that similarities in structure, chords etc in other themes are meant to be foreshadowing anything.
Indeed, also because, in Anakin's case, it's literally the same character in two different stages of his life, and audiences in 1999 already knew his future evolution. More than a hint, it was a sort of "reminder" of what people already knew would happen.
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1 hour ago, Demodex said:
Uh, I must not understand what you're talking about because all I hear is Anakin's theme. There's nothing there that I would associate with Vader.
I think he means the end of the theme in that track, at 0:59. This one is actually correct (but also well known to be intentional).
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John Williams famously said that he had written Princess Leia's theme as a love theme, because he was expecting she would have a love story with Luke, only to discover in the last movie that they were twins, and the love story was going to involve Leia and Han. Just in case anyone still wanted to look for hidden messages and links in the musical themes, or any kind of long-term planning in these things.
- leeallen01, Falstaft, Remco and 2 others
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Ok, I'll disengage as well, and enjoy the show
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3 hours ago, Mattris said:
... or I simply made an honest mistake. No need to be condescending.
Without mistakes this time... Starting @ 3:26, the last four notes of The Scavenger are: (descending) D, B, E, B (identical to the second note)
At the first B, a Rallentando takes effect, so the E seems extended. To be the major triad (original) version of the Vader Motif, I understand that the lowest note (E) would have to be the higher G.
However, an eighth note D (same as the first note of the 4) before the last note (B) would have completed an exceedingly obvious variation of the Vader Motif, so Williams intentionally omitted the D.
My confidence is entirely unshaken since this passage was composed intently, as are the others I noted. John Williams hid numerous Vader Motif variations throughout the TFA score. To insinuate that 'they do not exist' or that 'they are all unintentional' would be living in an alternate reality.
It's clear to me that Williams is trying to tell us something about Rey. Just as her origins and destiny are not in focus, so are the Vader/Emperor references within her music - but they are present, nonetheless. Mark my words, this all will be confirmed in December.
Instead of this reiterated nonsense (which makes even less sense than your original mistake, and does not warrant a reply), have you noticed how the rhythm (not the pitches) of the ending of that theme resembles... the rhythm of the Han & Leia's theme?? What is JW trying to tell us?? Is Rey their daughter??
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46 minutes ago, Mattris said:
With only a solo flute playing, The Scavenger is the easiest example to understand. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 -- descending D, B, G, and finally that same B after a elongated space, where a D would have completed the Vader Motif exactly. This passage, along with the others I noted, was composed intently. Anyone who refutes this is musically inept and grossly underestimates John Williams.
Ok, listen. I already told you what real notes are being played there. That was my polite, fact-based reaction. I will now try to be clearer: if you keep saying that you hear the sequence D, B, G, B, or whatever else than the notes that I wrote, that's enough for me to conclude that either 1) you are trolling, or 2) you suffer from some kind of auditory hallucinations, or 3) you don't know... notes, or intervals. I cannot find other explanations, and I am starting to believe that no. 3 is the most likely (the cure would be to get some music lessons). To anyone who knows music theory, your posts read as if you were saying that 2 + 2 = 5. You are even declaring wrong notes, come on!
17 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:Weeeellll, in fairness to Mattris, I think he meant more that the intervals of his theme (G Eb Bb in its first Imperial March statement) spell out a major triad. I'm trying to go on a limb for him here.
Yeah, sure!!
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Ok, he is 100% a troll. I thought he might truly believe in some of the nonsense he was saying about the musical intervals, hence I bothered to reply. It's now obvious that he's just trolling and laughing at us. I should have realized that in advance - my bad.
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2 hours ago, Mattris said:At 1:01 of "The Ways Of The Force", the low brass play the Vader Motif exactly: four notes, starting at the first C (count 4 on that staff).
... except that it is wrong. The notes you are referring to (as written down by @Falstaft ) are C A Eb C. The Vader Motif, in that key, would be C Ab Eb C. Surely you are not implying that JW, when quoting Vader's motif to deliver his hidden messages, made a mistake?
3 hours ago, Mattris said:For a simplified version of Rey's Theme, listen to "The Scavenger". Starting @ 3:16 of is the Reflective Motif (the ending section of her theme), which is a variation of Darth Vader's Theme, more specifically, the Vader Motif. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 (descending D, B, G, and finally that same B) are the Vader Motif, with the second to last note omitted (the same D as the first note). In its place, a space, signifying the uncertainty of Rey's fate.
... except that you are wrong. If you are referring to the melody played by the flute, that fragment is G F# F# (one octave down) D B (then it goes to E). Nothing to do with the Darth Vader motif, which in that key would be B G D B.
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7 hours ago, Falstaft said:
Other leitmotifs which begin by outlining a minor thirds...:
Imperial Motif (ANH)
Jawa Motif (ANH)
Death Star Motif (ANH, ROTJ)
Jabba's Theme (ROTJ, ANH-SE)
Qui Gon's Theme (TMP)
Shmi's Theme (TMP, AOTC)
General Grievous (ROTS)
Don't forget the "Closing In" theme from "Catch me if you can"! There must be some hidden connection between Frank Abagnale, the Emperor, and Rey... and Williams is cleverly hinting at that through the minor third interval! It cannot be a coincidence.
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3 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:
I don't care about the 'in-film' science. But the convenience of two different sized and powered ships at maximum speed, both being identical in speed, is pathetic storytelling.
I am not taking a position in the debate, I was just saying "no" to a wrong statement. I am enjoying parts of this discussion, it's quite funny.
In any case, I think what is written here, https://www.the-editing-room.com/star-wars-last-jedi.html
is the most healthy way to look at these movies.
Which of these 2 recent Star Wars concert versions do you prefer
in JOHN WILLIAMS
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Old Han & the Princess > Rey's theme > new Han & the Princess.
The old version (also my favourite one) was written 100% by JW, just like all the other concert arrangements!! Gerhardt only conducted the first recording!