Which comes first.....

[pi 0]

another thing i have always been confused about is what comes first.

the JW soundtrack cue

or

the actual underscoring cue

for example take the cue:

Anakins betrayal

in the film there is a large cut of a section. Musically the cut works just fine in the film and is unnoticeable if you have not heard the other one. Yet how does he do this? Does he have time to write the "cut" part in the hurry of scoring the film. In other words does he write that in while scoring the film or come back after the film is finished, and before the session and then write it in. How do they record it, is it a splice in? - in other words do they do a take with just the cut part and then paste it together or do they record the whole cue including the cut part and then just pro tools the cut out to fit the picture.

You really see this in so many john williams films, especially in the star wars prequels. For example track one on the ROTS CD, you hear these cues as fragments spread through out the whole film, how does he make them work all together? key wise and tempo wise etc.... must be alot of planning

any insight would be welcome

This is one of the questions i would ask the guy if i was sitting in some interview.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

i think Lucas just cuts them all up?

[John Crichton 4]

Cues are always written for the film. Any edits that appear on the CD were made specifically for the CD after everything has already been recorded for the film. Williams CD in particular are notorious for finicky little edits that remove parts of cues, and splicing mulitple cues together into one CD track.

There are exceptions to this rule, where cues are recorded specifically for the album, but they are rare and usually obvious. And of course concert pieces, which feature a theme, themes, or cue from a score but are adapted to function as a stand-alone piece outside the film.

And of course there's the way that cues are sometimes edited in last-second post-production for the film, but that's a whole other story...

[Romão 2,274]

In the case of Anakin's betrayal, I would bet the film version is the original version JW wrote and recorded, and was later shortened for the album.

[nightscape94 965]

I thought this thread was going to be about the chicken or the egg.

Tim

[Ollie 1,059]

I thought this thread was going to be about the chicken or the egg.

Tim

Depends on who has better control.

[King Mark 3,631]

In the case of Anakin's betrayal, I would bet the film version is the original version JW wrote and recorded, and was later shortened for the album.

It was shortened by 15 seconds on the album,not by Williams,but by someone working on the album that wanted to piss off his more hardcore fans on purpose without anybody else noticing.Same with Anakin's Dark Deeds.

K.M.

[Romão 2,274]

Yeah. And the full versions sound so much better.

[Trent B 337]

In the case of Anakin's betrayal, I would bet the film version is the original version JW wrote and recorded, and was later shortened for the album.

It was shortened by 15 seconds on the album,not by Williams,but by someone working on the album that wanted to piss off his more hardcore fans on purpose without anybody else noticing.Same with Anakin's Dark Deeds.

K.M.

That's what I think as well. There was clearly enough room to leave those two cues intact...but noooooooo.

[King Mark 3,631]

It was probably a guy who had the marketing of an eventual 2 c.d. set in mind,or just an asshole.I see no other reasons,really.

Probably just an asshole.I also believe it's the same album editor that worked on the Prisoner of Azcaban c.d.,which has the exact same kind of problems.

I can think of no other Williams c.d.'s that have these problems besides those 2.Yes,important cues ommited from the c.d. and large sections of them missing,but it's usually done more tastefully and not snipping off crucial bits in the a cue's important parts.

K.M.

[Trent B 337]

They probably did it knowing that a 2-disc set score will eventually be released sometime.

I'm sure Sony will release the 2-disc set scores for both AOTC and ROTS some day it's just a matter of when.

I have read statements that they should have waited to release the 2-disc set for TPM until after ROTS was done and release all 3 Prequels as their intended editions. I completely agree.

However just because the UE for TPM got bad sales doesn't mean that should stop them from releasing some sort of 2-disc set for AOTC and ROTS, which I'm sure would sell more since those are more in demand right now.

[Indiana_Fett 0]

What's the point of editing out 5-10 seconds of good music? Do they have nothing better in their lives other than to bring pain and sadness to others?

[Henry B 50]

The section cut from "Lament" or "Anakin's Betrayal" is a little out-of-place musically. The album version has a smoother flow to it. On the other hand, when it comes to this score, more music is usually preferable.

[pi 0]

The section cut from "Lament" or "Anakin's Betrayal" is a little out-of-place musically. The album version has a smoother flow to it. On the other hand, when it comes to this score, more music is usually preferable.

Agreed.

It was my impression that the film version is shorter. I thought I heard a cut in the film version and the cut is not in the movie version, hence the whole discussion.

Can anyone figure that out??

Why mess with it at all?

[Trent B 337]

I think the sequence in question, in the film was I believe shot a tad bit longer. However when it came down to the final editing process of the film they shortened it so they had to shorten the actual music piece as well to match with the rest of the film.

Take another cue, for example: Bail's Escape, that scene was definitely shot a bit longer but cut short in the final editing process of the film. The music from Battlefront 2 has an unused section which confirms this...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The egg, obviously.

[ashinyobject 0]

The egg, obviously.

No, the chicken.

[Justin 2]

Egg!

Justin

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

John lays the chicken that lays the Egg. John comes first.

[pi 0]

Well obvious JW has the album in mind while writing, - other wise things wouldnt go so smoothely on track 1 of ROTS. these cues are used throughout the movie and flow well -especially the key changes. I think he must plan it out as he is going. For example the Trombones statement of Grevious' theme right in the beginning of the movie goes right onto the next section even though this happens much much later in the film.

[King Mark 3,631]

The section cut from "Lament" or "Anakin's Betrayal" is a little out-of-place musically. The album version has a smoother flow to it. On the other hand, when it comes to this score, more music is usually preferable.

Maybe ,just maybe,Williams had to write the cue a little longer for the film and said he didn't want the extra brass on the album.The whole unreleased middle section when Yoda and ObiWan are talking I understand why it was removed,but not the brass at the end.

Somewhat I doubt that was his decision.

Same with Lament,the short choir part they cut out is one of the best moment of the score in the film.That alone made me feel like seeing the film again to hear it.

K.M.

[Demodex 557]

What's the point of editing out 5-10 seconds of good music? Do they have nothing better in their lives other than to bring pain and sadness to others?

I didn't notice any editing here, so I wonder why it causes so much pain and sadness to some people.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Well obvious JW has the album in mind while writing, - other wise things wouldnt go so smoothely on track 1 of ROTS.  these cues are used throughout the movie and flow well -especially the key changes.  I think he must plan it out as he is going. For example the Trombones statement of Grevious' theme right in the beginning of the movie goes right onto the next section even though this happens much much later in the film.

I'm pretty sure John just scores the movie. The way the album is edited is something he's not even involved with. He's hired to score the movie, not make an album.

Not following you on the Grievous thing either. You know that statement is from when we first see Grievous on the bridge of the Invisible Hand, don't you?

[pi 0]

Not following you on the Grievous thing either. You know that statement is from when we first see Grievous on the bridge of the Invisible Hand, don't you?

Correct, we see that in the movie in the first few minutes when he first walks in on that ship in the film. But at that point in the film it doesn't go in to the album's fast legato strings passage following it just stops after that statement. We see/hear that fast strings passage later on in the movie yet in the album it smoothly goes immediately attaca in to it - as if JW had this in mind all along.

This could all of course be the work of music editing, yet they cannot change the key - thats why I think he mentally aware of possible tracks/cuts for the album.

Is it also possible for the star wars films that JW kind of went off on his own after being shown a basic guidline of the scene? Lucas is well know for his last minute cuts and heavy computer animation dependence, so maybe he and JW worked out an agreement where he was to write 2:30 seconds of action music with a certain framework in mind, and then they cut the music to the film after the recording session. This way the music could be getting done while the CGI is getting done and in the end Lucas would still have control over everything.

-Pi

Who thinks about these things way too much.

[Ollie 1,059]

-Pi

Who thinks about these things way too much.

Yep.

[Incanus 5,715]

I think Williams seems to be very conscious about the album when writing the music since he is one of those rare film composers who nowadays actually write concert pieces to be included on the album. Williams always structures the albums as musical programmes just like in a concert to provide variance and a good listening experience on its own ( not that we fans always agree on that " good listening experience"). He does not put all the loud or the quiet music together but tries to create a balance like in a concert. That is basically what Williams said in an interview around the time of Episode I was released. There Williams talks about how he compiled the album for that film.

So I think Williams puts a lot of thought into his albums but he definitely writes for the film first and album second.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I do not think Williams gives much though to his albums at all.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Not following you on the Grievous thing either. You know that statement is from when we first see Grievous on the bridge of the Invisible Hand, don't you?

Correct, we see that in the movie in the first few minutes when he first walks in on that ship in the film. But at that point in the film it doesn't go in to the album's fast legato strings passage following it just stops after that statement. We see/hear that fast strings passage later on in the movie yet in the album it smoothly goes immediately attaca in to it - as if JW had this in mind all along.

You are referring to the cue The Elevator Scene, written for... the elevator scene, which immediately follows Grievous introduction. And along with some unreleased bits put back in, it synchs up almost perfectly (still a few gaps here and there).

The music beyond Grievous' theme was cut from the film.

[pi 0]

I just dont know why we do not get a chronological complete soundtrack. Charge us more for the 2nd Cd, spare us the hologram covers and other garbage.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Because that costs money...

Besides, more often than not I'd much prefer a well-selected album of a score's highlights than the complete score. It's only when there's an equal amount of fantastic music that remains unreleased that I would prefer an expanded release. Williams' scores, especially now, do have a bit of boring underscore. It's just that now, his highlights aren't the thematic material, but the breathtaking incidental stuff like "Anakins Betrayal" and "The Immolation Scene".

If a complete release of ROTS came out, I wouldn't buy it. There's just not enough music I want that would warrant the buy. Philosopher's Stone, on the other hand...

[AI 0]

pi,

you could tie yourself in knots about this, the upshot is thus;

Most all cues (by any film composer), on CD or in film, are edited. Most of it happens in the recording process, spliced and cut together before you even have a chance to hear it as a consumer.

Remember that the film score is a tool which is manipulated by the Director and Producers to best service the film they are making. What you actually hear is more than likely, not what was intended by the composer.

[Incanus 5,715]

There is also the little detail of rescoring and other things that affect the album release. More often the than not the album has to be locked down fairly early in the scoring process. I do not mean that composer has to select cues on the album half way through the process but I am saying it happens before the final definitive score has been locked down. So there might be rewrites, edits and other factors that may change the music before it ends into the film. Or another take might be chosen for the album than for the movie. This is very evident in JW scores and we often receive albums with alternates instead of the actual film cues like in Minority Report (Precrime to the Rescue) , A.I (Abandoned in the Woods). or Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (Keeping Up with the Joneses).

[pi 0]

There is also the little detail of rescoring and other things that affect the album release. More often the than not the album has to be locked down fairly early in the scoring process. I do not mean that composer has to select cues on the album half way through the process but I am saying it happens before the final definitive score has been locked down. So there might be rewrites, edits and other factors that may change the music before it ends into the film. Or another take might be chosen for the album than for the movie. This is very evident in JW scores and we often receive albums with alternates instead of the actual film cues like in Minority Report (Precrime to the Rescue) , A.I (Abandoned in the Woods). or Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (Keeping Up with the Joneses).

Correct! Thank you.

Evidence of this is also in material not in the movie but in the soundtrack only, for example the woodwinds, horn opening of track 2 on jurassic park. Not at all in the movie, and obviously it was written before the session - hence my conclusion that he is totally aware of potential album tracks while writing.

[Incanus 5,715]

To give another example that Williams thinks ahead about the album and other artistic possibilities of a film score there is a good evidence of Harry Potter and the Philosopher Stone. Williams not only did score the film but at the end of every recording session took time to record pieces of his concert suite "A Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra" on the themes of HP. So Williams was thinking the music outside the film even before it was released and parts of that concert suite ended up on the album. And I think it is a great thing that he strives to create artistically strong scores that have worth outside the movie and make them stand on their own. This of course is not the first requirement of a film score and it never should be but Williams makes the music work both in the film and on CD. I always feel Williams' music is something special and has artistic integrity on its own and at the same time it works wonders in a film. That is one reason I love his scores.

This proves that Williams thinks about the score outside the film but not that he would write album cues first and score second. He is a craftsman who works always for the movie.