The Hobbit Film Trilogy Thread

[Jay 37,373]

The biggest asset of FotR? Gandalf the GREY.

Yes, hear hear! Gandalf The Grey was so warm, mischievous, and just iconic. Gandalf The White was kind of a bore. I know he was on a mission of upmost important the entire time, so he has an excuse and all.... I just enjoyed the Grey version more. Can't wait for 2 more movies with him

[Brónach 1,302]

Interesting to notice their actual names in-universe:

"Also called: Orks, Goblins; Sindarin: Yrch (sg. Orch), Quenya (Valinorean): Urqui (sg. Urko), Quenya (Noldorin): Orqui or Orkor (sg. Orko), Adunaic: (sg.) Urku or Urkhu, Black Speech: Uruk (for lesser breeds: Snaga), Druedainic: Gorgun, Khuzdul: Rakhas (sg. Rukhs); all (or most of) these names stemming from Proto-Eldarin root *RUKU, "something that causes fear". Sindarin also Glamhoth: "host of tumult" {1}."

Note Adûnaic Urku. Adûnaic is the origin of Westron, which is the hobbits' mother tongue.

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

ROTK has always been the weakest of the trilogy for me

It's the strongest for me, albeit with the biggest blunders.

[KK 3,307]

Interesting to notice their actual names in-universe:

"Also called: Orks, Goblins; Sindarin: Yrch (sg. Orch), Quenya (Valinorean): Urqui (sg. Urko), Quenya (Noldorin): Orqui or Orkor (sg. Orko), Adunaic: (sg.) Urku or Urkhu, Black Speech: Uruk (for lesser breeds: Snaga), Druedainic: Gorgun, Khuzdul: Rakhas (sg. Rukhs); all (or most of) these names stemming from Proto-Eldarin root *RUKU, "something that causes fear". Sindarin also Glamhoth: "host of tumult" {1}."

Note Adûnaic Urku. Adûnaic is the origin of Westron, which is the hobbits' mother tongue.

The diversity in the languages is one of the most impressive features of Tolkien's work. I love them all. It leaves a lot of work for us Tolkien fans after the great writer passed away, considering we have to learn them all

[Brónach 1,302]

I wish he elaborated more on some of them. Black Speech in particular.

[Incanus 5,715]

Orcs are basically one race originally perverted and corrupted from captured Elves by Morgoth. The idea is that these beings are mockeries of Eru's children since Morgoth was incapable of creating life on his own as he did not possess the Flame Imperishable, which was the basis of true creation, of which only Eru was capable. Same goes for Trolls which were mockeries of Ents or ensorcerelled from stone as is mentioned in the central writings of Tolkien. All these creatures of darkness were corrupted and made with sorcery and were, in the near black and white world of Tolkien, evil if not to the very core since god allowed their existence and he was basically good. This is the official line to this day and I would not go about saying Christopher Tolkien got it wrong since he knows his fathers work better than anyone I think. But on the other hand Tolkien himself is quite poor guide as he wrote so many different versions of these creations and changed his mind several times.

Uruk-hai and Olog-hai were Sauron's later improvements on Orcs and Trolls, whether it involved genetic manipulation or sorcery or both. And this is what he passed down to Saruman who then played Dark Lord on his own and "created" the Uruk-hai. His true contribution to this genetic mess seems to be the creation of half-orcs, goblinmen who were half-breeds between humans and orcs, what ever way he succeeded in joining these two lines, the most horrible mockery according to Elves and Gandalf.

Interestingly Tolkien's original idea for creation of Orcs was that "all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime." is present in the story of Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales and is very much how PJ has depicted the birth of Uruk-hai in LotR, being bred from slime and earth.

[KK 3,307]

Orcs are basically one race originally perverted and corrupted from captured Elves by Morgoth. The idea is that these beings are mockeries of Eru's children since Morgoth was incapable of creating life on his own as he did not possess the Flame Imperishable, which was the basis of true creation, of which only Eru was capable. Same goes for Trolls which were mockeries of Ents or ensorcerelled from stone as is mentioned in the central writings of Tolkien. All these creatures of darkness were corrupted and made with sorcery and were, in the near black and white world of Tolkien, evil if not to the very core since god allowed their existence and he was basically good. This is the official line to this day and I would not go about saying Christopher Tolkien got it wrong since he knows his fathers work better than anyone I think. But on the other hand Tolkien himself is quite poor guide as he wrote so many different versions of these creations and changed his mind several times.

Its a gray area in Tolkien's writings to say the least.

[Brónach 1,302]

Well I think he used that on purpose at the lack of any other explanation.

[KK 3,307]

I wish he elaborated more on some of them. Black Speech in particular.

As do I. For fun I tried writing in it but its incredibly hard considering most of it is now based on different dialects expanded on by fans. I guess there's only so much we can expect from him.

[Brónach 1,302]

They say there's still unpublished material about Quenya.

Maybe they should let David Salo take a look on that for the films.

[Incanus 5,715]

They say there's still unpublished material about Quenya.

Maybe they should let David Salo take a look on that for the films.

Have you read the Gateway to Sindarin by Salo by any chance? I think it got very critical reception from purists who accuse Salo of adding too much of his own invention to the language. I have yet to read it but it is certainly on my "to read list".

Orcs are basically one race originally perverted and corrupted from captured Elves by Morgoth. The idea is that these beings are mockeries of Eru's children since Morgoth was incapable of creating life on his own as he did not possess the Flame Imperishable, which was the basis of true creation, of which only Eru was capable. Same goes for Trolls which were mockeries of Ents or ensorcerelled from stone as is mentioned in the central writings of Tolkien. All these creatures of darkness were corrupted and made with sorcery and were, in the near black and white world of Tolkien, evil if not to the very core since god allowed their existence and he was basically good. This is the official line to this day and I would not go about saying Christopher Tolkien got it wrong since he knows his fathers work better than anyone I think. But on the other hand Tolkien himself is quite poor guide as he wrote so many different versions of these creations and changed his mind several times.

Its a gray area in Tolkien's writings to say the least.

It depends on what sources you think as canon. I consider LotR, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion canon (by no means always completely unified in all details) which is then filled in by the rest of the published works to certain degrees of reliability. History of Middle Earth series is very unreliable on these details since it is basically a long history of writings spanning decades of work and chart the evolution of Tolkien's thinking but do not necessarily come to any final conclusion. One of the most irritating things, perhaps not to Tolkien so much as he said at one point he wanted others to fill in his world to enrich it, is that the fandom has begun to mix everything together, the "official canon" becoming muddled with differing histories, character stories, name variants and plot lines abandoned and in the end rejected by Tolkien himself. In a way it is delightful that this world has taken so strong life of its own but then again it is a jumbled mess in places. And of course not all details find their canon explanation in Tolkien at all, or they get 9 different drafts, of which there is no final version in existence.

[Quintus 5,399]

Let me know when this thread ceases to be a no-go area again.

[Ren 75]

Let me know when this thread ceases to be a no-go area again.

Thinking the same thing

[KK 3,307]

Orcs are basically one race originally perverted and corrupted from captured Elves by Morgoth. The idea is that these beings are mockeries of Eru's children since Morgoth was incapable of creating life on his own as he did not possess the Flame Imperishable, which was the basis of true creation, of which only Eru was capable. Same goes for Trolls which were mockeries of Ents or ensorcerelled from stone as is mentioned in the central writings of Tolkien. All these creatures of darkness were corrupted and made with sorcery and were, in the near black and white world of Tolkien, evil if not to the very core since god allowed their existence and he was basically good. This is the official line to this day and I would not go about saying Christopher Tolkien got it wrong since he knows his fathers work better than anyone I think. But on the other hand Tolkien himself is quite poor guide as he wrote so many different versions of these creations and changed his mind several times.

Its a gray area in Tolkien's writings to say the least.

It depends on what sources you think as canon. I consider LotR, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion canon (by no means always completely unified in all details) which is then filled in by the rest of the published works to certain degrees of reliability. History of Middle Earth series is very unreliable on these details since it is basically a long history of writings spanning decades of work and chart the evolution of Tolkien's thinking but do not necessarily come to any final conclusion. One of the most irritating things, perhaps not to Tolkien so much as he said at one point he wanted others to fill in his world to enrich it, is that the fandom has begun to mix everything together, the "official canon" becoming muddled with differing histories, character stories, name variants and plot lines abandoned and in the end rejected by Tolkien himself. In a way it is delightful that this world has taken so strong life of its own but then again it is a jumbled mess in places. And of course not all details find their canon explanation in Tolkien at all, or they get 9 different drafts, of which there is no final version in existence.

Yes. it was actually one of the things that bothered me a bit when I first read through the History of Middle-Earth series. It was a bit tiring at times reading different interpretations on the same stories explained previously in books like The Silmarillion. But I agree with you, The Silmarillion is usually my most reliable source for Middle-Earth mythology in which I think he really nailed it.

I'm in agreement with the theory that the orcs were crafted from the mutilation of elves, but I acknowledge that Tolkien had other ideas in the pot too.

They say there's still unpublished material about Quenya.

Maybe they should let David Salo take a look on that for the films.

Have you read the Gateway to Sindarin by Salo by any chance? I think it got very critical reception from purists who accuse Salo of adding too much of his own invention to the language. I have yet to read it but it is certainly on my "to read list".

Sounds very interesting. I'll add this to my reading list too.

[Incanus 5,715]

Let me know when this thread ceases to be a no-go area again.

Let me know when this thread ceases to be a no-go area again.

Thinking the same thing

Hey don't mock peoples' life long obsession when they want to talk shop here! I know we did derail The Hobbit discussion a bit but can't you smell all that nerd testosterone (is that an oxymoron?).

So how about that Dain Ironfoot and Fili and Kili? Will beardless Dwarves baffle the audience as much as a mohawk wearing one? Will starfish hair-do enrage the media? Is short beard (on Longbeard Dwarves) going to be the new hipster look?

[Ren 75]

Hey incanus, I'm not mocking. I've read it all and I do actually follow believe it or not. I just don't feel like people can participate right now in this type of discussion

[Brónach 1,302]

If they say Salo added too much of his own to Sindarin then I don't know what they'll say of his Khuzdul.

Here is what more or less known.

Gateway to Sindarin might be a bit out of my reach as far as linguistics go.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[tannhauser 101]

Does anyone here find Bloodboal remotely funny? He seems to constantly attempt humour and fail.

[crocodile 8,018]

The Force is with him, but he's not a Jedi yet.

Seriously, though, was that really necessary, tannhauser?

Karol

[Incanus 5,715]

He is okay. He has already won the prestigious Golden Biscotti of Comedy this year.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[tannhauser 101]

The Force is with him, but he's not a Jedi yet.

Seriously, though, was that really necessary, tannhauser?

Karol

I wasn't trying to be horrible, I was just genuinely curious as to whether I was the only one who found his posts annoying and not at all funny.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I hate Bloodball!

[Brónach 1,302]

Let me know when this thread ceases to be a no-go area again.

Thinking the same thing

That was nothing! I usually go into a certain forum about science-fiction/horror/fantasy literature where people can go into pages long rants about the climate of Northern Westeros. Now that's a scary nerdy place...

[tannhauser 101]

And now the thread has turned into an appraisal of Bloodboal's sense of humour. Apologies!

Back on topic. The second Hobbit trailer has been rated. I wonder if we'll see it before Comic-Con. Any guesses to upcoming films it may be attached to?

Hopefully we'll see a lot of cool interesting stuff in it, and maybe a few seconds of new music from Shore!

[Quintus 5,399]

You can't keep a good man down, BloodBoal will regroup.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Does anyone here find Bloodboal remotely funny? He seems to constantly attempt humour and fail.

He has already won the prestigious Golden Biscotti of Comedy this year.

They don't just give the Golden Biscotti to ANYBODY you know....oh wait...

[Brónach 1,302]

Back on topic. The second Hobbit trailer has been rated. I wonder if we'll see it before Comic-Con. Any guesses to upcoming films it may be attached to?

The Dark Knight Rises, probably.

That or Brave.

[Jay 37,373]

So how about that Dain Ironfoot and Fili and Kili? Will beardless Dwarves baffle the audience as much as a mohawk wearing one? Will starfish hair-do enrage the media? Is short beard (on Longbeard Dwarves) going to be the new hipster look?

I don't know how the audience will receive all those additions in the film, but what I do know is how Shore will tackle them. Here is a recent post in Doug Adams blog:

I know some of you are concerned about the changes made in the film. Now, I can't tell you how these will work in the film, but I can tell you how they will be interpreted musically. Here are a few info on the score Howard allowed me to share with you.

Regarding the much talked about Radagast's bunnies, Howard composed a nine-notes theme for them, which is very reminiscent of the Fellowship theme. The reason behind this is because there are actually nine bunnies, with names very similar to the ones of the Fellowship's member. These are: Araborn, Bimli, Begolas, Bobomir, Bandalf, Bibbin, Berry, Bamwise Bamebie and Brodo Faggins. You can also expect some rising chords of doom coming from those bunnies.

Recently, it was revealed Dain Ironfoot will arrive on the battlefield, riding a wild boar. When he first saw the design of the creature, Shore immediately thought of a song, a war chant to go with his first appearance on screen. The song is called The Wild Boars' Procession (originally, the whole dwarf army was supposed to be riding wild boars). He wrote the lyrics with Philippa Boyens, and they were translated into khuzdul by David Salo. Here is an excerpt of the song:

The Wild Boars' Procession

Music By Howard Shore

Lyrics By Howard Shore And Philippa Boyens

You're a wild boar

Riding you is such a chore

But you're certainly no bore

I want to stay with you more

There was also talk about Dain's mohawk haircut, for which Howard composed a motif, based on lyrics by Leslie Bricusse. This one is very close in structure to Williams' Low Below theme from Hook. Here are the lyrics that were originally planned for this motif:

Ho, high, ho

Dain's mohawk goes

Ho, high, ho

Where tatoos show

Ho, high, ho

Dwarves are in awe

In the shadow of the great mohawk's blow

Finally, there was also the newly created character Tauriel, for which Shore had to write a theme. It became clear to Shore very quickly that this character was so useless and boring, that she didn't even deserve a one-note motif, so he decide to ignore her, and every time she appears on screen, all you'll hear is silence, as if she was a Music Slayer.

ROTFLMAO :lol:

Does anyone here find Bloodboal remotely funny? He seems to constantly attempt humour and fail.

I think he's hilarious. The funniest poster here by a wide margin

He is okay. He has already won the prestigious Golden Biscotti of Comedy this year.

I'm pretty sure he's gotten more Golds Stars than anyone else too

[alicebrallice 134]

indeed he is but it's a shame that he obviously feels the need to be funny in every single post. sometimes less is more:)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

No, because then you will become as boring as the rest of us.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Once 605]

For fuck's sake, don't cut down on your jokes, BloodBoal!

[Brónach 1,302]

I'm more surprised by the amount of actual funny in BB that comes out naturally than by the amount of jokes.

[Incanus 5,715]

No, because then you will become as boring as the rest of us.

Says the winner of Golden Bisquit (of Doom) of the year. We have celebrities flooding our thread here.

[Brónach 1,302]

We need another trailer...

[Incanus 5,715]

We need another trailer...

Definitely. I can't wait for another round of speculation on quick cuts and mysterious characters appearing in glimpses and how the Dwarves' beards and hair looks funny or how bunnies are popping out of Radagast's hat...

[Quintus 5,399]

indeed he is but it's a shame that he obviously feels the need to be funny in every single post. sometimes less is more:)

[Jay 37,373]

I do agree that not all of his material soars. In fact, thinking more, most of his material falls flat. But it's all worth it for the ones that really work, cause they are absolutely hilarious

[crocodile 8,018]

He works harder than Alexandre Desplat.

I liked the early BloodBoal (late 2010) when his fresh voice injected new life into this corner of the universe. But he's been typecast in his later output. Very much like this Frenchman or Thomas Snoozeman. His much anticipated Tin Tin review turned out to be KOTCS of the 2011. Too much gold stars spoiled the lad, perhaps?

Karol

[Incanus 5,715]

He works harder than Alexandre Desplat.

I liked the early BloodBoal (late 2010) when his fresh voice injected new life into this corner of the universe. But he's been typecast in his later output. Very much like this Frenchman or Thomas Snoozeman. His much anticipated Tin Tin review turned out to be KOTCS of the 2011. Too much gold stars spoiled the lad, perhaps?

Karol

Oh no! He might be becoming the Gustavo Santaolalla of Comedy!

[KK 3,307]

He works harder than Alexandre Desplat.

I liked the early BloodBoal (late 2010) when his fresh voice injected new life into this corner of the universe. But he's been typecast in his later output. Very much like this Frenchman or Thomas Snoozeman. His much anticipated Tin Tin review turned out to be KOTCS of the 2011. Too much gold stars spoiled the lad, perhaps?

Karol

Oh no! He might be becoming the Gustavo Santaolalla of Comedy!

No, no, not that bad! But seriously, BloodBoal should not cut down on his jokes. He's the funniest guy here. His endless clowning is a refreshing counterpoint to the swirling abyss of pessimism and whining around here

[Incanus 5,715]

PJ will just have to do things the way I like and then I'll stop complaining. He should look to Williams for advice. I haven't had anything to complain about Williams for years. He knows how to do it right.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Bloodball is a symptom of all that is wrong on this forum.

[Incanus 5,715]

Combined with that signature image you sound like you mean business. Go grumpy!

[Brónach 1,302]

Bloodball is a symptom of all that is wrong on this forum.

This forum is like this.

[Incanus 5,715]

I really hope Shore will tell us something interesting scoring tidbits soon so we can have something else than this to talk about. PJ more production diaries, pronto!