The OFFICIAL James Horner Self-Plagiarism List

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I thought it would be fun to compile a list of all the THEMATIC self plagiarism Horner has committed over the years. Here's how it goes. The ORIGINAL INCARNATION of a theme is to be typed in bold, and the regurgitations are listed after them. It would be preferable to note the exact track or passage too if you can. Oh, and please DO NOT mention the Danger motif, its in every Horner score so lets leave it at that. Let me start

Glory - Preparations for Battle

Braveheart - Sons of Scotland

The Pagemaster - New Courage/The Magic of Imagination (3:00 to end)

[King Mark 3,631]

CASPER-Casper's Lullaby

The Spiderwick Chronicles-one of the themes

[ChuckM 1]

Bicentennial Man - The Machine Age

A Beautiful Mind - Kaleidescope of Mathematics

[Hlao-roo 389]

Bicentennial Man - The Machine Age

A Beautiful Mind - Kaleidescope of Mathematics

These cues also reference Searching for Bobby Fischer, which, in turn, references Sneakers. (Sorry, don't have exact track titles on me at the moment.)

[Martyprod 86]

easy one :

Bicentennial man - The machine Age

A beautiful mind - - A Kaleidoscope of Mathematics

oups sorry, someone was faster

[Hlao-roo 389]

easy one :

Bicentennial man - The machine Age

A beautiful mind - - A Kaleidoscope of Mathematics

oups sorry, someone was faster

Plagiarist!

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

btw, I think Horner actually did the piano symbolizing intelligence thing first with Searching for Bobby Fischer. Anybody can check that?

[odnurega1 0]

MY NEW FAVORITE THREAD! Unfortunately I can't add anything at the moment, because I have to pack to go home for Spring Break. Once i get home, I'll add some.

[ASW 0]

There's a brief idea in "Stealing the Enterprise" from ST III that is used throughout The Rocketeer... sorry I don't have track times as of yet

[Martyprod 86]

There's a brief idea in "Stealing the Enterprise" from ST III that is used throughout The Rocketeer... sorry I don't have track times as of yet

and what about rocketeer and Titanic ??????????? hummmm ...

easy one :

Bicentennial man - The machine Age

A beautiful mind - - A Kaleidoscope of Mathematics

oups sorry, someone was faster

Plagiarist!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

ouppps, i think i took that line to someone else ...... again ........

[ASW 0]

There's a brief idea in "Stealing the Enterprise" from ST III that is used throughout The Rocketeer... sorry I don't have track times as of yet

and what about rocketeer and Titanic ??????????? hummmm ...

In the words of a certain Y-Wing pilot... "There's...too many of them!!" It's not my fault he does this! What from The Rocketeer does he rip off in Titanic? My mind's gone totally blank on that one.

ASW

[Martyprod 86]

There's a brief idea in "Stealing the Enterprise" from ST III that is used throughout The Rocketeer... sorry I don't have track times as of yet

and what about rocketeer and Titanic ??????????? hummmm ...

In the words of a certain Y-Wing pilot... "There's...too many of them!!" It's not my fault he does this! What from The Rocketeer does he rip off in Titanic? My mind's gone totally blank on that one.

ASW

well, as i know pretty well rocketeer, but almost never listened to Titanic, but i remember when watching the movie for the first time "hoooooo fuc*** bi**** that's a rocketeer tune !!!!!!!!"

but i don't remember when , or which tune !! so we need to ask to someone else !!

maybe it's on the extended edition of titanic released later after the official first release.

[Desplat13 1]

In Titanic on the 'Death of the Titanic' track from 6:15-6:23 I believe he quotes himself from Balto, when Balto looks up and sees the ghost/white wolf/inspiration/whatever it is. I don't have the soundtrack, so I can't give an exact time.

Not that self-plagiarism is a bad thing...

Colin Thomson

[Ollie 1,059]

One of the funniest things I've ever heard, when it comes to film scores, is when a friend of mine took cues from Bicentennial Man (The Machine Age), A Beautiful Mind (Kaleidescope of Mathematics) and a cue from Sneakers and made a recording of all three cues playing at the same time.

With the exception of a few notes here and there it sounds like one cue. I have it on iTunes as the "Horner Symphony".

At first I thought something was wrong with the cue but once I realized what he did I couldn't stop laughing.

[ASW 0]

There's a brief idea in "Stealing the Enterprise" from ST III that is used throughout The Rocketeer... sorry I don't have track times as of yet

and what about rocketeer and Titanic ??????????? hummmm ...

In the words of a certain Y-Wing pilot... "There's...too many of them!!" It's not my fault he does this! What from The Rocketeer does he rip off in Titanic? My mind's gone totally blank on that one.

ASW

well, as i know pretty well rocketeer, but almost never listened to Titanic, but i remember when watching the movie for the first time "hoooooo fuc*** bi**** that's a rocketeer tune !!!!!!!!"

but i don't remember when , or which tune !! so we need to ask to someone else !!

maybe it's on the extended edition of titanic released later after the official first release.

That bit in 'Stealing the Enterprise' appears at 4:35-4:39ish. It appears throughout The Rocketeer, if I'm not mistaken.

In Titanic on the 'Death of the Titanic' track from 6:15-6:23 I believe he quotes himself from Balto, when Balto looks up and sees the ghost/white wolf/inspiration/whatever it is. I don't have the soundtrack, so I can't give an exact time.

Not that self-plagiarism is a bad thing...

Colin Thomson

Is that the motif you also hear in the "Re-Entry and Splashdown" cue in Apollo 13 (around 2:52-3:02)? Come to think of it, that's also in Enemy at the Gates as well, isn't it?

ASW

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

With the exception of a few notes here and there it sounds like one cue. I have it on iTunes as the "Horner Symphony".

Sounds cool, I'd like to hear that.

One of my most distracting Horner experiences is when that climactic bit from Wrath of Khan pops up at the climactic moment in Aliens. Can't provide track titles right now.

[John Crichton 4]

One of my most distracting Horner experiences is when that climactic bit from Wrath of Khan pops up at the climactic moment in Aliens. Can't provide track titles right now.

That one of the things that turned me off to Krull, it was so distracting to hear note-for-note quotes from Trek II in there.

[brightmusic 0]

Bicentennial Man - The Machine Age

A Beautiful Mind - Kaleidescope of Mathematics

How about Aliens and Star Trek 2 and 3 (battle theme)

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

That one of the things that turned me off to Krull, it was so distracting to hear note-for-note quotes from Trek II in there.

Hm. I don't remember that from Krull?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

When Bernard Herrmann does it, he's a musical genius. (In fact, I'd just under, if not on par with James Horner in terms of reiterating ideas over and over again).

When Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams do it it's auto-pilot.

When Horner does it...it's plagiarism.

[Ollie 1,059]

It would be different if Horner was still composing good music and had not gotten lazy.

You have to admit Horner has recycled his music more than any other composer normally does. Herrmann did it but with a section here and there. Goldsmith just used that damned US Marshall motif too many times.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Huh, he used it twice.

[Ollie 1,059]

Star Trek Insurrection, The Last Castle, Timeline, Chain Reaction, The Sum Of All Fears, US Marshalls and Along Came A Spider.

There's also another short little motif idea that sprang from Executive Decision that can be heard in several scores such as Air Force One, Chain Reaction.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You must be talking about a different theme.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

oh btw, if a motif pops up in several tracks on the same score, its not necessary to name all of them, just choosing one where it appears prominently will do.

Burga - who doesnt have his music at his disposal at the moment.

[Desplat13 1]

In Titanic on the 'Death of the Titanic' track from 6:15-6:23 I believe he quotes himself from Balto, when Balto looks up and sees the ghost/white wolf/inspiration/whatever it is. I don't have the soundtrack, so I can't give an exact time.

Not that self-plagiarism is a bad thing...

Colin Thomson

Is that the motif you also hear in the "Re-Entry and Splashdown" cue in Apollo 13 (around 2:52-3:02)? Come to think of it, that's also in Enemy at the Gates as well, isn't it?

ASW

I really don't know. To tell you the truth, I think I only have two Horner scores, Titanic and Spiderwick.

Colin Thomson

[indy4 155]

Oh, and please DO NOT mention the Danger motif, its in every Horner score so lets leave it at that.

Could somebody provide an excact track and time for this danger motif, I've always wondered what it is. Oh, and the only Horner scores I have are Titanic, Star Trek II, Casper, Biccentenial Man, and Apollo 13, so make sure the selection is from one of those.

[GoldsmithFanatic2000+ 0]

Could somebody provide an excact track and time for this danger motif, I've always wondered what it is. Oh, and the only Horner scores I have are Titanic, Star Trek II, Casper, Biccentenial Man, and Apollo 13, so make sure the selection is from one of those.

It's the first thing you hear in the Star Trek II cue entitled "Surprise Attack".

None of the other remaining Horner scores you currently own feature the danger motif.

To date the most uses of it in the same cue would be the opening to Willow "Elora Danan".

I know everything about Horner, as I've said before "I'm a Horner Encyclopedia" but I honestly don't have the time nor energy at the moment to go through everything.

There is just far too much.

[indy4 155]

Could somebody provide an excact track and time for this danger motif, I've always wondered what it is. Oh, and the only Horner scores I have are Titanic, Star Trek II, Casper, Biccentenial Man, and Apollo 13, so make sure the selection is from one of those.

It's the first thing you hear in the Star Trek II cue entitled "Surprise Attack".

None of the other remaining Horner scores you currently own feature the danger motif.

To date the the most uses of it in the same cue would be the opening to Willow "Elora Danan".

I know everything about Horner, as I've said before "I'm a Horner Encyclopedia" but I honestly don't have the time nor energy at the moment to go through everything.

There is just far too much.

Ah, thank you!

[Indiana_Fett 0]

I think the Xenomorph and Klingon theme are actually based off of Wolfen's theme.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

When Bernard Herrmann does it, he's a musical genius. (In fact, I'd just under, if not on par with James Horner in terms of reiterating ideas over and over again).

When Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams do it it's auto-pilot.

When Horner does it...it's plagiarism.

Oh, yes 'auto-pilot' is such a positive and praising term?

I dont know why 'The Patriot' is hated that much here then....

[Maglorfin 196]

If I remember correctly, Troy quotes from Braveheart's love theme at some time, but I don't have the scores anywhere near at the moment, I'll try to elaborate later.

[ASW 0]

I think the Xenomorph and Klingon theme are actually based off of Wolfen's theme.

Yes. At least that's also the earliest score in which I've heard it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It is.

[indy4 155]

When Bernard Herrmann does it, he's a musical genius. (In fact, I'd just under, if not on par with James Horner in terms of reiterating ideas over and over again).

When Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams do it it's auto-pilot.

When Horner does it...it's plagiarism.

When Zimmer does it, it's conisdered garbage.

[Red 75]

It all depends if you like the work in the first place.

[Desplat13 1]

So, should I bring up the Yoda theme in E. T.? It never really bothers me to have composers quoting themselves. Horner might do it a bit too much, but I think it has its place.

Colin Thomson

[Ollie 1,059]

Uh you do know the Yoda quote was done on purpose or have you even seen E.T.?

[John Crichton 4]

So, should I bring up the Yoda theme in E. T.?

No, because that was a 100% intentional joke by Williams and Spielberg.

[Desplat13 1]

I know it was done on purpose, and I love it. I am just saying that it has its place.

Colin Thomson, who has never seen E. T.

[Ollie 1,059]

So there's no point in even bringing it up in a plagiarism thread.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Desplat13 1]

Um, ok, whatever you say I'll let it get back on topic.

Colin Thomson

[Bryant Burnette 654]

I know it was done on purpose, and I love it. I am just saying that it has its place.

Colin Thomson, who has never seen E. T.

Colin, in case nobody else bothers to point it out . . . that quotation of Yoda's Theme takes place during a Halloween scene, and happens when E.T. walks past a child dressed as Yoda. It's not merely on purpose; the audience is expected to be in on the joke.

Don't take this as rude, becuase I really don't mean it this way, but isn't this a fine example of how a film score mostly should not be judged solely on its own merits? A film score exists as a storytelling aid, and if you remove the story it is in service to, then you're doing it a disservice, in my opinion. (In other words, stop what you're doing and go watch E.T. It's a friggin' classic! Quite frankly, I'm not sure I understand how one registers on a John Williams messageboard without having seen it, but it's never too late.)

As far as the Horner thing goes, I actually stopped caring about Horner some 10-11 years ago, when I realized that I was hearing him repeat himself over and over again. But his scores are still effective as storytelling aids, and since that's what it's all about, I think that the worst that ought to be said about him is that he's uninspired. After all, not every score can be a classic. Many are bound to be merely serviceable, and that seems to be Horner's lot in life of late.

I think it would also be worth considering whether or not Horner's frequent retasking of his own themes has any sort of artistic intent/merit. In other words, if he reuses a theme from Movie A in Movie B, is he imbedding that use in Movie B with some sort of meaning that people who see both movies will (hopefully) pick up on and benefit from? My guess would be that the answer to that question would be a resounding "no," but it's always a possibility until someone proves it isn't. I don't care enough one way or the other to invest more time in thinking about it.

[Desplat13 1]

I was just using the Yoda theme in E. T. as an example of a composer quoting himself, and it working well. I was making the point that it is not always a bad thing, and perhaps Horner should not be judged so harshly for it, just because it is less obvious when he does it.

I registered on a John Williams fan forum because I am a John Williams fan. If I were a Spielberg fan I would have registered on one of his. There are many movies I don't really want to see because I like there music so much, I am afraid it would take away from the music.

Colin Thomson

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Don't take this as rude, becuase I really don't mean it this way, but isn't this a fine example of how a film score mostly should not be judged solely on its own merits? A film score exists as a storytelling aid, and if you remove the story it is in service to, then you're doing it a disservice, in my opinion.

Not any more or less than so-called classical works. Most of them have a specific context (be it a story, and image, or just a general state of things in the composer's life at the time he wrote it). Composers have quoted themselves with specific intents before film scores were invented.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I was just using the Yoda theme in E. T. as an example of a composer quoting himself, and it working well. I was making the point that it is not always a bad thing, and perhaps Horner should not be judged so harshly for it, just because it is less obvious when he does it.

Its not the same thing, JW used the Yoda theme in E.T. when Yoda was onscreen. Its leitmotif!!

[David Coscina 3]

I noticed that Williams used the same chromatic descending woodwind line in Jaws and Superman. in Jaws it was when they find Chrissie's body and in Superman it's towards the beginning when Jor El is preparing the rocket. It's a very small phrase so it's not too offensive but Williams also recaps the warm string part of Kal El's departure later in E.T.

From a compositional standpoint, it is very hard to be wholly original. Given that film composers have about 3 to 4 weeks to produce 80 minutes of fully orchestrated music, it's not inconceivable that they would stumble upon a familiar phrase or two. I'm a little disappointed in Williams' Star Wars theme though as I just heard Korngold's Kings Row and it is uncomfortably close even in the voicing of the brass chords. I'm willing to lay off Horner a bit because almost every film composer I know of has lifted something from someone else, even themselves, at one point or another. It's just part of the game.

[Ollie 1,059]

Somehow I don't think Horner's constant repeating of cues is done in the same way as Williams did with Yoda's theme.

Thankfully Williams didn't quote E.T.'s theme when they appeared in TPM.

[steb74 53]

Somehow I don't think Horner's constant repeating of cues is done in the same way as Williams did with Yoda's theme.

Of course, but as pointed out earlier, Williams is not repeating himself in the sense that he has written a new theme almost identical to Yoda's theme for a new character.

He's simply using Yoda's theme as a joke for the person dressed up as Yoda, a little 'wink' to the audience, those who actually recognize it in the first place.

This particular usage shouldn't even be mentioned as it isn't even in the realm of self-plagiarism, much like the Jaws quote in Close Encounters.

They're just jokes.

I believe Williams comes from a tradition of writing that is based on the idea that audiences may only see a movie once or twice and hear the score only once or twice and at least for me, thankfully he isn't thinking about how a score might work in 10, 20, 30 years and multiple dvd releases later.