Kevin 22 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I find that the general public only really associate film music with the big main themes that they love. This is why the general public loves John Barry/John Williams so much, because he has many socially redeeming main themes, but they don't recognize the underscore. Another example is also the weirdly popular Last of the Mohicans by Trevor Jones (good but not that good). Film music and the general public is kinda like at my church, everyone sings the chorus but almost no one sings the verses. And John Williams scores are the christmas songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Very true. It's the big main themes that get the attention from the general public. Some composers react by only devoting any real effort to those themes; others still put in the effort and create great underscoring that mostly gets noticed by the hardcore fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,796 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 That's a question I've wanted to ask composers - how it feels to craft scores of such complexity, when most of the effort goes completely unnoticed by most cinemagoers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 See, Williamsfan301, he can make constructive Threads.A very good point you discuss. I am extremely annoyed when people accuse John Williams of writing "extremely simple stuff" ( yes, I had a conversation with a classmate who said that yesterday), because all they know is "The Imperial March", "Star Wars Main Theme", "Raiders March", and the "Jaws Theme". It is that musical ignorance that I hope we can eliminate in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I don't really think though that the average Joe is any less of a music fan if he doesn't notice the underscore during Superman: The Movie, or Raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 No, but some people can be complete morons about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I don't really think though that the average Joe is any less of a music fan if he doesn't notice the underscore during Superman: The Movie, or Raiders.No, but that average Joe is certainly less interested in clever and enjoyable underscoring in films than some of us are. (Which is okay.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 To an extent, Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 No, but some people can be complete morons about it.Probably, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 To an extent, Joe.Well, they've got to either be less interested or not have the means to listen to it. I mean, what other explanations could there be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I was responding to the "(Which is okay.)" part, actually. It is fine if one just says they are not familiar with his work, but to assume those themes comprise his entire oeuvre is just silly, and I think that happens more often than it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Oh oh, I gotcha. And I agree wholeheartedly. It's one thing to simply not have a taste for underscoring...it's a whole 'nother beast to rudely and ignorantly suggest a composer's big themes are the only real part of their oeuvre, and to look down on the craft as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin 22 Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 See, Williamsfan301, he can make constructive Threads.A very good point you discuss. I am extremely annoyed when people accuse John Williams of writing "extremely simple stuff" ( yes, I had a conversation with a classmate who said that yesterday), because all they know is "The Imperial March", "Star Wars Main Theme", "Raiders March", and the "Jaws Theme". It is that musical ignorance that I hope we can eliminate in time.Or they like something which is the film music equivalient to fast food (ex Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl/Transformers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Or they like something which is the film music equivalient to fast food (ex Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl/Transformers).The analogy isn't quite right, because there's nothing in MV-style music that's unhealthy for you. (Unless you turn up the volume too loud...) It just doesn't have the refinement or originality of some of the other music out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The analogy isn't quite right, because there's nothing in MV-style music that's unhealthy for you.Are you sure? I could swear I feel brain cells die every time I'm subjected to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The analogy isn't quite right, because there's nothing in MV-style music that's unhealthy for you.Are you sure? I could swear I feel brain cells die every time I'm subjected to it.Blast Star Wars and I'm sure you'll lose a couple thousand brain cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Are you sure? I could swear I feel brain cells die every time I'm subjected to it.How unfortunate for you.I feel like I spend all my time on JWfan defending MV scores and all my time in the "real world" pointing out their flaws. I guess there are consequences for having a balanced viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 No, Star Wars is very brain healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin 22 Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 People don't appreciate what a good score can do for a film anymore.... or did they ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I feel like I spend all my time on JWfan defending MV scores and all my time in the "real world" pointing out their flaws.I'm actually exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin 22 Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I feel like I spend all my time on JWfan defending MV scores and all my time in the "real world" pointing out their flaws.I'm actually exactly the same.Do I smell hypocrisy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 When you've got two groups that refuse to see each other's perfectly-valid-but-not-entirely-well-rounded viewpoints, and you're an individual in the middle who's enjoying the best of both worlds, it's hardly hypocritical to try to "enlighten" both sides of the argument. EDIT: I would be a hypocrite if I jumped on the hate bandwagon here while secretly enjoying some of his work, or if I pretended to love all his work like much of the general public while secretly abhorring his methodology. But I'm eager to admit to both groups that I instinctively enjoy some MV-style music while having significant artistic reservations about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I've been called Zimmer lover here before. I've been so closely related to him, that richuk thought Maxxie was me just because he had a Zimmer avatar. I didn't even post once in that LOTR Box Set thread! My brother is a bigger RCP fan. In the real world, I usually argue with him how you guys argue with me. I just go about with him on the Zimmer stuff I don't like, but mainly about the RCP stuff I hate. I'm not a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I think the genral public is a little more appreciative of film music than some of you give them credit for. Go to a concert and look around, I will guarantee not everyone there is a film score fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Not everyone in the "general public" fits the stereotype, certainly. There are plenty of people who are somewhere between that and the JWfan stereotype. But there's no denying that there is a marked difference between "us" and "the average." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Well yes that's pretty obvious. The general public sees the Indy box set in a store and buys it because they liked the Raiders march and figures there might be more of it or actually likes what they heard in the films. Brings it home and just listens to it.We buy it and spend the whole time complaining about left out music, pitch, alternate cues and reconstructing the whole box set to fit our anal attitudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 We buy it and spend the whole time complaining about left out music, pitch, alternate cues and reconstructing the whole box set to fit our anal attitudes.Actually, I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I spend 95% of the time listening to the music, enjoying it, being glad the purchase was made, and having a good time editing the music so I can obtain even more satisfaction from it. Then I spend the remaining 5% of the time complaining about the stupid choices that occasionally get made. - Datameister, who finished editing his TLC album today. Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delorean90 42 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Indeed.And I don't really see how wanting to listen to the music in an (at least subjectively) more ideal fashion is anal. If you've got the methods and you want to hear music in the pitch and speed at which it was actually recorded, is that really anal? Anal would be writing a letter the execs saying the track titles suck and should be changed.Having passion for music is not the same as being anal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,833 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 That's a question I've wanted to ask composers - how it feels to craft scores of such complexity, when most of the effort goes completely unnoticed by most cinemagoers.They might think it's a good thing, as the music "served its purpose". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin 22 Posted January 11, 2009 Author Share Posted January 11, 2009 Plus, the era of 'big names' in film scores is almost coming to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I dunno if I agree with that - among people who casually enjoy film scores, Danny Elfman and Hans Zimmer are still pretty well-known. It's just that what it means to be a big name is changing significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,833 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Any composers on this board willing to go work for RCP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I would. Only way to change the organization is from the inside out, and it would hurt to make some easy money in the mean time. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,796 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 When you've got two groups that refuse to see each other's perfectly-valid-but-not-entirely-well-rounded viewpoints, and you're an individual in the middle who's enjoying the best of both worlds, it's hardly hypocritical to try to "enlighten" both sides of the argument. EDIT: I would be a hypocrite if I jumped on the hate bandwagon here while secretly enjoying some of his work, or if I pretended to love all his work like much of the general public while secretly abhorring his methodology. But I'm eager to admit to both groups that I instinctively enjoy some MV-style music while having significant artistic reservations about it.I find myself constantly jumping between defending RCP and slating them, depending on exactly what's being discussed and who's discussing with me. It's not double standards or anything, it's just which prejudices are in the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I find myself constantly jumping between defending RCP and slating them, depending on exactly what's being discussed and who's discussing with me. It's not double standards or anything, it's just which prejudices are in the conversation.Exactly. Nothing wrong with seeing the good and bad in a situation, and helping others to be more realistic by doing the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeshopk 8 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I find that the general public only really associate film music with the big main themes that they love. This is why the general public loves John Barry/John Williams so much, because he has many socially redeeming main themes, but they don't recognize the underscore. Another example is also the weirdly popular Last of the Mohicans by Trevor Jones (good but not that good). Film music and the general public is kinda like at my church, everyone sings the chorus but almost no one sings the verses. And John Williams scores are the christmas songs.Hey, a lot of JWFAN members are the same way! But JW is the master of underscore, and that's why I LOVE his textural scores like War of the Worlds. Themes and motifs are the whipped cream but underscore is the main dish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 51 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Plus, the era of 'big names' in film scores is almost coming to an end.Man are you gloomy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I find myself constantly jumping between defending RCP and slating them, depending on exactly what's being discussed and who's discussing with me. It's not double standards or anything, it's just which prejudices are in the conversation.Exactly. Nothing wrong with seeing the good and bad in a situation, and helping others to be more realistic by doing the same.And finally someone from RCP spoke out about what exactly an additional composer does. Seems I was write the whole time, they compose NOTHING! Henry Jackman said in an interview that what they do is manipulate and fiddle around with cues Zimmer gives them so that it fits with the rest of the score. But he's there the whole time and makes sure they don't drastically change anything from what he originally wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaderbait1 1 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 There hasn't been much good underscore since the early '90s. That's actually my beef with most modern film music, if we're lucky to have a main theme, that's it. The underscore is generic and "atmospheric." At least Williams and others in the early days put effort into underscore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,100 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Themes and motifs are the whipped cream but underscore is the main dish.I tend to see themes and motifs as the desert, and underscore as the veggies. Gotta have 'em both, since they've both got significant value, but one is always going to appeal to more people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin 22 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Plus, the era of 'big names' in film scores is almost coming to an end.Man are you gloomy!Funny, my nickname is Sunny... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,818 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I think the genral public is a little more appreciative of film music than some of you give them credit for. Go to a concert and look around, I will guarantee not everyone there is a film score fan.They dont play much underscore in concerts, but big, famous main themes. That is the point of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Actually they do. Williams does, the Austin Wind Symphony does, The Houston Symphony did at the concert John, Greta and I attended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,818 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Actually they do. Williams does, the Austin Wind Symphony does, The Houston Symphony did at the concert John, Greta and I attended.They dont play much underscore in concerts"They dont play much" : They play it sometimes, but not as much as the main themes. So you did not got me there, since i did not say they never play underscore.And dont tell me now that most film music concerts are not comprised of famous tunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Again you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,818 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 You are kidding right?You just want me to go mad.With main themes I dont (f*cking) mean cues that has that surname but also famous tunes or segments from the movies.If that is not where you want to get me, then i'm very puzzled because you are saying than the majority of film score concerts are comprised of underscore. Which would the the 1st notice i have on my life of that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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