Rate "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom"!

[Henry B 50]

This is funny stuff!

[Josh500 1,615]

Of the three (Lucas, Koepp, and Spielberg), Spielberg has done the most commendable job...

I disagree. The story is serviceable, the script isn't very good, but again, above-average directing could have elevated it. Spielberg has done the worst thing of all, he made Indiana Jones boring. From the moment the action starts in the warehouse, the shots seem pedestrian, the action choreography blocking dull. It's only because of Michael Kahn's editing that the film has any real movement at all.

Do you really think so? Or do you just like to discuss this?

Anyway, I'm not saying Spielberg has done a tremendously great job, but the direction is not so bad as you make out, either. What scenes exactly are you talking about (choregraphy blocking, pedestrian shots, etc.)?

The warehouse scene, the chase through university, the ant scene, the departure etc. were all well-directed... visually, it's not much different from LC.

The movie sucks because the story fails to captivate.

you gave KOTCS a 3.5 in your one year anniversary poll and you say it sucks?

No, it doesn't, really. I said the above in the sense of, "If it sucks, then it's because the story fails to captivate."

The score 5 stars

The movie 3,5 stars

This is such a wonderful action/adventure with a blend of just about everything. It is one of the most interesting ethnically tinged scores JW has done as well with such great choral work. But in all honesty JW went for a wee bit crazy with the Raiders March in this one. Yes I know it is varied and interesting throughout the film but especially the final action sequences starting from Rescuing Willie are endless Raiders March variations ending in the extended finale. The music is so frenetic, going in all directions, spewing forth fanfares, orchestral hits and themes all around and has such "and the kitchen sink" approach that I need to be in a very adventurous mood to listen to it all the way through.

And no I am not denying the sheer cinematic magic it summons or how there are brilliant moments in the action but it has such a pace it can wear you down if you are not in the right mindset.

Yeah, I agree. It's not necessarily bad, but at times it can be too much.

That's why I prefer (ever so slightly) LC... although I gave both scores 5 stars. The action music in LC seems to more paced, more deliberate.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

You people are boring. Just chuck TOD in the player and crank it up like a ROCK CONCERT baby!! YEAH!

[Josh500 1,615]

Honest to God, with some JW-scored movies, it's like listening to a JW concert and somebody just shot the scenes to match the music...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

What is it I'll care about when I can no longer hear whether or not Short Round's theme sounds silly?

I think Josh sparked this thing when he said music can't be silly. Of course it can. You listen to music, you think it's silly, therefore the music is silly (in your opinion of course). If music sounds silly, that could be interpreted as the performance being silly.

[Desplat13 1]

You people are boring. Just chuck TOD in the player and crank it up like a ROCK CONCERT baby!! YEAH!

[King Mark 3,631]

All time JW:

1-TESB

2-ToD

[Hlao-roo 389]

Just chuck TOD in the player

How quaint. Obviously you have not kept up with the times.

[indy4 155]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that in terms of action music, ToD is the weakest Indy score (though it's still very good). Its greatest moments are in cues like "Approaching the Stones" or "The Scroll/To Pankot Palace."

[Josh500 1,615]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that in terms of action music, ToD is the weakest Indy score (though it's still very good). Its greatest moments are in cues like "Approaching the Stones" or "The Scroll/To Pankot Palace."

You're right, but that's IMO because the action sequences in Raiders and LC are more powerful than the underworld madness of ToD.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think it has the best action music

[scallenger 483]

Score: 5

Movie: 5

Theme: Short Round

This is, without a doubt, my favorite Indiana Jones score, and is one of my favorite scores of all time! I like all the other Indy scores (yes, that even includes Kingdom of the Crystal Skull) but I consider this one a clear standout. They are all 5 star scores (except that 4th one I already mentioned, more like a 4), but this one would be a 6 if there was such a rating. It just goes above and beyond what I expect from scores these days. It is fun almost all the way through, with loud and crazy themes that play off of each other, a motiff for just about every type of event and character you can think of (including water!), and has, in my opinion, the best moments featuring the Indy theme EVER (who can resist it's triumphant take in "Short Round Helps" as it plays off of Shorty's theme?). It's also the darkest and most intense Indy score, and the evil Kali chanting is classic and well known even with non-score fans. It's one of the few scores I can listen to all the way through without skipping a track (and I of course mean the recent Concord CD release).

As for the film, it is also my favorite Indiana Jones film. I'm sure many here don't have that same view, as most people discard the film, but I love it for it's over-the-top insanity, which the score greatly reflects. Sure it gets silly and stupid, and to some, annoying, but that's what oddly makes it fun for me to watch, and see Indy reacting to his fish-out-of-water sidekicks and the darkness of a cult. I do like all of the Indy films, but this one was always the most entertaining to me. And who doesn't get a kick out of the mine car chase, with it's frantic music pulsating with every dip on the track?

The theme to choose in this poll was a bit hard since I love both themes almost equally. But in the end, Short Round had the most memorable theme of the two and some of the most interesting renditions and playful use (again, the cue Short Round Helps is a stand out).

I guess everyone has their own personal favorite Indy score, though. Someone very close to me favors Last Crusade, score and film. Do most people here favor the same Indy score that goes with the same film they prefer? Hmmm...

[Josh500 1,615]

Nice review, thanks!

I've come to think that all 3 Indiana Jones movies are 98%, 99%, and 100%.

People just can't decide which is which.

[indy4 155]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that in terms of action music, ToD is the weakest Indy score (though it's still very good). Its greatest moments are in cues like "Approaching the Stones" or "The Scroll/To Pankot Palace."

You're right, but that's IMO because the action sequences in Raiders and LC are more powerful than the underworld madness of ToD.

I think the action of ToD is at least as good as that of Raiders and LC, in some cases better. And also, I was including KotCS when I said ToD has the weakest action music in the Indy scores.

[Josh500 1,615]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that in terms of action music, ToD is the weakest Indy score (though it's still very good). Its greatest moments are in cues like "Approaching the Stones" or "The Scroll/To Pankot Palace."

You're right, but that's IMO because the action sequences in Raiders and LC are more powerful than the underworld madness of ToD.

And also, I was including KotCS when I said ToD has the weakest action music in the Indy scores.

Really? You call Streets of Shanghai, Mine Car Chase, Map/Out of Fuel, Bug Tunnel/Death Trap, The Broken Bridge/British Relief, etc. weak when compared to KotCS?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Ludicrous. TOD has incredible action music. Underground Chaos is alone better than anything in TLC or KOTCS, but add to that Broken Bridge, Fast Streets of Shanghai, Slalom on Mt. Humol, Chaos at Club Obi-Wan. Not sure if you can really count Death Trap, but I could listen to that cue endlessly.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

The action in the other films (perhaps not the latest one, though) was more story-driven, I think.

[indy4 155]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that in terms of action music, ToD is the weakest Indy score (though it's still very good). Its greatest moments are in cues like "Approaching the Stones" or "The Scroll/To Pankot Palace."

You're right, but that's IMO because the action sequences in Raiders and LC are more powerful than the underworld madness of ToD.

And also, I was including KotCS when I said ToD has the weakest action music in the Indy scores.

Really? You call Streets of Shanghai, Mine Car Chase, Map/Out of Fuel, Bug Tunnel/Death Trap, The Broken Bridge/British Relief, etc. weak when compared to KotCS?

That's not what I said. I said the action music is weaker than KotCS action music, that doesn't make it weak in comparison (or at all, for that matter).

[Charlie Brigden 7]

The action in the other films (perhaps not the latest one, though) was more story-driven, I think.

The latest one was royalty-cheque driven.

[Josh500 1,615]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that in terms of action music, ToD is the weakest Indy score (though it's still very good). Its greatest moments are in cues like "Approaching the Stones" or "The Scroll/To Pankot Palace."

You're right, but that's IMO because the action sequences in Raiders and LC are more powerful than the underworld madness of ToD.

And also, I was including KotCS when I said ToD has the weakest action music in the Indy scores.

Really? You call Streets of Shanghai, Mine Car Chase, Map/Out of Fuel, Bug Tunnel/Death Trap, The Broken Bridge/British Relief, etc. weak when compared to KotCS?

That's not what I said. I said the action music is weaker than KotCS action music, that doesn't make it weak in comparison (or at all, for that matter).

So you call Streets of Shanghai, Mine Car Chase, Map/Out of Fuel, Bug Tunnel/Death Trap, The Broken Bridge/British Relief, weaker than The Jungle Chase, Departure, Whirl Through Academe?

Anyway, I'm not saying KotCS is bad, not at all. I think it has some outstanding action music. Still, overall I would say ToD has DEFINITELY more powerful and hence better action music.

[indy4 155]

Yes.

Of course it's not that simple, I wouldn't say any given action piece from KotCS is better than any given action piece from ToD, but in general, I prefer the action music of KotCS.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yes.

Of course it's not that simple, I wouldn't say any given action piece from KotCS is better than any given action piece from ToD, but in general, I prefer the action music of KotCS.

Well, there aren't that many in KotCS to begin with... the ones I mentioned, plus what? Ants!?

[indy4 155]

Since when does quantity determine quality?

[Josh500 1,615]

Since when does quantity determine quality?

Well, you said overall you prefer the action music of KotCS. And I pointed out to you that there weren't that many to begin with.

So you must be thinking of the ones I mentioned when you said what you said.

[indy4 155]

Yes, but what I meant by my comment was that I'm not going to say that any action cue from KotCS is better than any action cue from ToD. For instance, I'd take most ToD action cues over "Grave Robbers." It has nothing to do with how many there are.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yes, but what I meant by my comment was that I'm not going to say that any action cue from KotCS is better than any action cue from ToD. For instance, I'd take most ToD action cues over "Grave Robbers." It has nothing to do with how many there are.

So why do you prefer the KotCS action music again?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Yes.

Of course it's not that simple, I wouldn't say any given action piece from KotCS is better than any given action piece from ToD, but in general, I prefer the action music of KotCS.

Out of curiosity, why?

[indy4 155]

Yes.

Of course it's not that simple, I wouldn't say any given action piece from KotCS is better than any given action piece from ToD, but in general, I prefer the action music of KotCS.

Out of curiosity, why?

You know, I'm actually not totally sure right now. The only thing I know for sure is that I've listened to the ToD action cues many of times in hopes that they'll grow on me the same way most action cues have, and they have not thus far.

I do agree that they lack the focus and structure of most JW action cues. They consist mostly of variations of themes of characters and a few random fanfares. It's strange, because this is what most people criticize modern JW action music of, and I really enjoy that. So perhaps it's not the idea behind having less focused, more frantic music that I dislike, but rather the execution JW used in this specific film. I will say that my favorite action cues from ToD are "Slalom on Mt. Humol," "The Mine Car Chase," and "Water!," and these seem to be the most structured of the action cues, so this could very well be the reason. However, I have also been exposed to these three cues longer than most (the first two were included on the OST, the third one I remembered pretty clearly upon seeing the film). So perhaps I just need to give the other cues time to grow on me more.

Also, I find that the cues of KotCS may seem unfocused at first, but rather than jumping from one unrelated idea to the next, it seems like there is some sort of flow from one of his motifs to the next. Take "A Whirl Through Academe." To me, most of the ideas that JW goes through in that cue feel almost inevitable (not really inevitable, but they seem like they make sense), if unrelated, as opposed to the more jerky "Short Round Helps" which seems more like a random, unpredictable patchwork of themes and ideas.

Just to be clear, I like, even love, most of the ToD action cues. They are just inferior to those of KotCS. As a score I think I'd still choose ToD, but it'd be close.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

a random, unpredictable patchwork of themes and ideas.

That's what makes it so great. You never know exactly where it's going, and it's thrilling.

I'm trying to see your point, but I can't. I just find the KOTCS action music dull. Even the Jungle Chase (released and unreleased) fails to inspire me.

Maybe it would be better if you watched the Underground Chaos scenes again, maybe with the CD running in the background. It'll show that it's really not random, and certainly not a patchwork. More that this is JW's Looney Tunes. Which is a very, very good thing.

[Incanus 5,715]

Maybe it would be better if you watched the Underground Chaos scenes again, maybe with the CD running in the background. It'll show that it's really not random, and certainly not a patchwork. More that this is JW's Looney Tunes. Which is a very, very good thing.

I guess the name Underground Chaos is warranted then JWs action music is not patch work, never was and never will be. It always has a clear structure and pacing as does all of his music. To me the wearing down factor in the final action sequences in ToD is the amount of this frenetic music back to back, no real time for a breather until the Bridge percussion music.

Comedic ballet is JWs description of Indy action music which I think he has done well in all the 4 movies.

Yes even the last on has in my opinion great action material with the very similar action music motifs that made the previous films' music so fun. A Whirl Through the Academe has its nice little motoric figure driving the piece forward, hints of Mutt's theme and brilliant woodwind writing, Warehouse Escape has first the quote from Raiders score as a sort of "Indy back in action" reminder of the character (JW going for nostalgia as he is much more in this last film in general) and then the rapid trumpet blasts (also itself a short brisk motif) and orchestral hits as if to signify the rapid fire of zig zagging bullets and threat of Russians coming after Indy, The Jungle Chase is certainly not aimless but well structured as any JW action piece with perhaps more thematic development in such a piece than most of the recent films he has done. JW provides the constant forward momentum with his string figures at the beginning of the piece (it repeats constantly becoming the central motif of the first part of the chase) going from the heroics of the father to the heroics of the son and to march like section of Irina getting the upper hand but finally Mutt and the Monkeys save the day heralded by fanfares of his theme. And in between JW underscores the change of hands of the Crystal Skull between Spalko and the heroes in a very thematic way. The 3 distinct parts flow well and clearly from one to another forming a 3 part musical journey. In a way Mutt has stolen his father's spotlight in the action so Raiders March is not used so much in the action sequences which of course has to do with the film more than JW. Ants! is such a great piece of both "critter music" and Airplane Fight style angular, stabbing orchestral hit action which is pure Indiana Jones peppered with both the Crystal Skull 3-note motif, the Skull theme and the Russian theme. Again if these don't float your boat then so be it. I enjoy them tremendously.

[Hlao-roo 389]

JWs action music is not patch work, never was and never will be.

I don't agree with this statement, but I do think his recent material is far more motivically driven than many of its detractors give it credit for being.

[Datameister 2,044]

I do think his recent material is far more motivically driven than many of its detractors give it credit for being.

I agree. That's not to say everyone has to like it, but it's not as if he's abandoned his practice of working with a blend of existing themes and new motivic material for his action cues. I think what bugs some people is the way many of those motifs don't seem quite as bold or fresh as the ones he used to develop. He also tends to use less straightforward harmonic progressions, favoring stuff that's a little more dissonant and...for lack of a better word, random. Sometimes that approach works brilliantly for me, sometimes not so much.

[indy4 155]

a random, unpredictable patchwork of themes and ideas.

That's what makes it so great. You never know exactly where it's going, and it's thrilling.

Well yeah, it works for and against the piece. As somebody else said in this thread, I really have to be in the right mindset to enjoy it fully. Sometimes I really like it. But sometimes it can really drag.

Again, I'd like to reiterate--I love the score to ToD, and I love the action cues. I just think that those of KotCS are superior. It's nothing to be ashamed of, both of the scores are among JW's great ones, it's tough competition.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

It's nothing to be ashamed of, both of the scores are among JW's great ones, it's tough competition.

And that's where I disagree, but oh well.

[Incanus 5,715]

JWs action music is not patch work, never was and never will be.

I don't agree with this statement, but I do think his recent material is far more motivically driven than many of its detractors give it credit for being.

And I can't agree with your statement. To my mind Williams' action music is always purposeful, it has pace that fits the scene. If it is less motivically driven sometimes so be it. If you want JW to repeat himself over and over and always write in the same thematic way or hearken always back to the olden golden days' style then there are those old scores to listen to. The word aimless and patch work is being thrown around but I would like for people for once to explain why is this action music to their mind so aimless. His music certainly goes from place A to place B in a logical fashion and more gracefully than most composers' efforts. If it does not inspire you, give you goose pimples, sudden revelations or emotional experiences you crave for or make you tap the floor because of the rhythms then it is just serviceable film music to your ears. If JW uses similar structures to convey this action from film to film I can ask you what composer doesn't. Everybody has trademarks. JW, Goldsmith, Horner, Herrmann, Rózsa you name it.

And on the topic I have to say I was first fascinated by the ethnically tinged and atmospheric music in ToD. The early cues at Club Obi Wan before the brawl, the Indian Village, The Scroll and Trek to Pankot Palace, the Temple of Doom all contain music which I found wonderfully evocative of the story's setting and mood. The choral work in general from the wailing, keening, droning choir depicting the barren Indian village and the plight of its inhabitants to the sacrifical chanting in the temple and the ominous choral effects on the Trek to the Palace (an insert as I much to my dismay discovered when I heard the new expanded CD) struck me as genious and really different from what I had used to hear from Williams.

[Hlao-roo 389]

JWs action music is not patch work, never was and never will be.

I don't agree with this statement, but I do think his recent material is far more motivically driven than many of its detractors give it credit for being.

And I can't agree with your statement. To my mind Williams' action music is always purposeful, it has pace that fits the scene. If it is less motivically driven sometimes so be it. If you want JW to repeat himself over and over and always write in the same thematic way or hearken always back to the olden golden days' style then there are those old scores to listen to. The word aimless and patch work is being thrown around but I would like for people for once to explain why is this action music to their mind so aimless. His music certainly goes from place A to place B in a logical fashion and more gracefully than most composers' efforts. If it does not inspire you, give you goose pimples, sudden revelations or emotional experiences you crave for or make you tap the floor because of the rhythms then it is just serviceable film music to your ears. If JW uses similar structures to convey this action from film to film I can ask you what composer doesn't. Everybody has trademarks. JW, Goldsmith, Horner, Herrmann, Rózsa you name it.

I'm assuming you actually do agree with my statement quoted above -- just not with the sentiments that you suppose underlie it.

First of all, "aimlessness" and "patchwork" are not synonyms, at least as I interpret them, nor does the presence of one imply the existence of the other. My phrasing may have suggested it, but that wasn't my intention.

Second, unless we're discussing the concrete specifics of compositional theory, we're going to have to accept that the subjective and the objective will be inextricably intertwined, with very little hope of teasing them apart. What is "trademark" to one person is "trite" to another. What is "patchwork" to one person is "stylistic fingerprints" to another.

My position is that some of Williams's recent work -- "The Chase Through Coruscant" and "Anderton's Great Escape" being prime examples -- comprise significant boilerplate, particularly in their latter sections, as Williams eschews interesting development or recapitulation of his primary motifs. His transitional material in particular is devoid of identity (beyond that of its composer). Similar structures have, of course, always turned up among successive scores throughout Williams's career, but the melodic inventiveness and spontaneity Williams displayed in earlier periods allowed him to finesse these similarities with greater agility.

I do believe that many fail to appreciate that Williams is an assiduous craftsman with a command of the symphony orchestra that is pretty much without parallel among active Hollywood composers today. When the man writes a score, it is something to be celebrated, because his work is automatically more musically interesting than 99% of the rest of the scores to be released that year. That's why it astonishes me when people drop the term "mediocre" around Williams's work so casually. Ultimately, I must respect their opinion, but I admit it strikes me as a total loss of perspective.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yes.

Of course it's not that simple, I wouldn't say any given action piece from KotCS is better than any given action piece from ToD, but in general, I prefer the action music of KotCS.

Out of curiosity, why?

You know, I'm actually not totally sure right now. The only thing I know for sure is that I've listened to the ToD action cues many of times in hopes that they'll grow on me the same way most action cues have, and they have not thus far.

I do agree that they lack the focus and structure of most JW action cues. They consist mostly of variations of themes of characters and a few random fanfares. It's strange, because this is what most people criticize modern JW action music of, and I really enjoy that. So perhaps it's not the idea behind having less focused, more frantic music that I dislike, but rather the execution JW used in this specific film. I will say that my favorite action cues from ToD are "Slalom on Mt. Humol," "The Mine Car Chase," and "Water!," and these seem to be the most structured of the action cues, so this could very well be the reason. However, I have also been exposed to these three cues longer than most (the first two were included on the OST, the third one I remembered pretty clearly upon seeing the film). So perhaps I just need to give the other cues time to grow on me more.

Yes, I agree. But that has mostly to do with the movies themselves... ToD is all over the place, a zany, whacky, chaotic experience. So the music tries to emulate and support that. KotCS is much less so, and neither is the music.

They're both fantastic, in their own right.

[publicist 4,643]

I do believe that many fail to appreciate that Williams is an assiduous craftsman with a command of the symphony orchestra that is pretty much without parallel among active Hollywood composers today. When the man writes a score, it is something to be celebrated, because his work is automatically more musically interesting than 99% of the rest of the scores to be released that year. That's why it astonishes me when people drop the term "mediocre" around Williams's work so casually. Ultimately, I must respect their opinion, but I admit it strikes me as a total loss of perspective.

If you take it as given that messageboard talk consists of knee-jerk reactions 99,9% of the time, it just makes no sense to waddle around in semantics. 'Mediocre', 'bad', 'uninspired' and 'plagiaristic' or 'brilliant', 'genius' and what-not are only some of the words which are thrown around with little regard for what they actually mean and used rather loosely to describe the fact the author feels, for one reason or another, dissatisfied or taken with a piece of music. And that is really a statement on the consumer's mentality of this society - it's not about being a scholar on the music or a composer and finding some greater context for it, it's mostly (not only) the 'i don't like it' /'love it' attitude on display.

And i will add that i find the elevation of someone to God-status and the praisings of every routine job to high heaven as harmful as the badmouthing described (this is an acute FSM board/Goldsmith problem, which never ceases to amaze me).

[Ollie 1,059]

I find Williams action music for TOD much more cohesive and structured than KOTCS.

I have no shame in saying that I found KOTCS action cues to be lacking. The Jungle Chase feels disjointed, the missing music is just a repetative progression of notes that don't do anything to enhance the cue.

There's no doubt that Williams has no current peers when it come to technique and skill but sometimes that younger raw, inexperienced composer can make more musical magic than those who have been around the block. Which is probably why I'm so drawn to Michael Giacchino's music.

There's a freshness and excitement in his music that is missing from alot of composers these days.

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

Most underappreciated Williams score. And the "Temple of Doom" is f{}cking awesome. Darkest piece of music I can think of.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I do believe that many fail to appreciate that Williams is an assiduous craftsman with a command of the symphony orchestra that is pretty much without parallel among active Hollywood composers today. When the man writes a score, it is something to be celebrated, because his work is automatically more musically interesting than 99% of the rest of the scores to be released that year. That's why it astonishes me when people drop the term "mediocre" around Williams's work so casually. Ultimately, I must respect their opinion, but I admit it strikes me as a total loss of perspective.

If you take it as given that messageboard talk consists of knee-jerk reactions 99,9% of the time, it just makes no sense to waddle around in semantics. 'Mediocre', 'bad', 'uninspired' and 'plagiaristic' or 'brilliant', 'genius' and what-not are only some of the words which are thrown around with little regard for what they actually mean and used rather loosely to describe the fact the author feels, for one reason or another, dissatisfied or taken with a piece of music. And that is really a statement on the consumer's mentality of this society - it's not about being a scholar on the music or a composer and finding some greater context for it, it's mostly (not only) the 'i don't like it' /'love it' attitude on display.

And i will add that i find the elevation of someone to God-status and the praisings of every routine job to high heaven as harmful as the badmouthing described (this is an acute FSM board/Goldsmith problem, which never ceases to amaze me).

Those kinds of naked assertions of quality aren't really endemic to online message boards. We see it all the time in mainstream A&E criticism, which traffics consistently in sensational claims with little substantiation. Occasionally we are compelled to take more careful stock what we are saying and why we are saying it, but, in the end, it's human nature, and we must take it or leave it. Could the level of discourse here be higher in an academic sense? Sure, but I expect that most visit these boards seeking simple diversion from the cares of much of the rest of their day (myself included).

I agree that there's a temptation to take to the extremes a bit too often when assessing a given piece of music, particularly when it's a composer about which we are very passionate one way or the other. All the same, I can accept that active members of a site called John Williams Fan Network will find much to adore (or lament) about a certain composer. Having self-selected into this sort of group, they can hardly be expected to conduct their discussions in as dispassionate and variegated a manner as those who frequent a more general interest sort of music forum, for instance.

[Diego 21]

I'm not so sure is the most underappreciated, it's my third favorite score after Star Wars and Empire and I know it's king mark's second favorite. Viewing the poll results so far it seems a lot of people love this score.

And yes, Temple of Doom is an awesome track that doesn't get a lot of conversation here, I wouldn't say it's the darkest piece of music (that would be Goldsmith's The Omen) but it is scary, I was certainly surprised by it the first time I heard it outside of the film.

[Hitch 57]

You people are boring. Just chuck TOD in the player and crank it up like a ROCK CONCERT baby!! YEAH!

GET A LIFE, YOU PEOPLE!!!!!

[Ollie 1,059]

Those kinds of naked assertions of quality aren't really endemic to online message boards. We see it all the time in mainstream A&E criticism, which traffics consistently in sensational claims with little substantiation. Occasionally we are compelled to take more careful stock what we are saying and why we are saying it, but, in the end, it's human nature, and we must take it or leave it. Could the level of discourse here be higher in an academic sense? Sure, but I expect that most visit these boards seeking simple diversion from the cares of much of the rest of their day (myself included).

I agree that there's a temptation to take to the extremes a bit too often when assessing a given piece of music, particularly when it's a composer about which we are very passionate one way or the other. All the same, I can accept that active members of a site called John Williams Fan Network will find much to adore (or lament) about a certain composer. Having self-selected into this sort of group, they can hardly be expected to conduct their discussions in as dispassionate and variegated a manner as those who frequent a more general interest sort of music forum, for instance.

I agree with what you have written, and yes I'm just as guilty for using certain terms without truly expressing or even thinking it thru at times.

I appreciate a good conversation but it seems most in depth discussions tend to only attract those who have a true musical education or dies a quick death. But yes, I do come here for fun and to hopefully discuss film music.

Perhaps some of us come across too strong in our opinions or maybe seem a bit stubborn at times. I can assure you that I try not to hide behind a computer screen and that John can vouch that what you read is what you get in person when dealing with me.

I had started a thread that suggested that perhaps it wasn't Williams (and others) who were losing their touch but that as listeners, we had become so familiar and had immersed ourselves in film music, as well as films that perhaps it had reached a point where everything eventually became predictable, or lost its magic. Of course it was met with negative reactions and no one seemed to truly understand the point I was trying to make.

All I can say is that the ear can be a strong ally, while I may not really know anything about composing music I have been listening for some 30 years and would like to think that constant exposure does provide a person with some limited knowledge. Much like the years I have spent watching sports I'm able to recognize certain formations and defensive/offensive plays during a game.

[publicist 4,643]

I agree that there's a temptation to take to the extremes a bit too often when assessing a given piece of music, particularly when it's a composer about which we are very passionate one way or the other. All the same, I can accept that active members of a site called John Williams Fan Network will find much to adore (or lament) about a certain composer. Having self-selected into this sort of group, they can hardly be expected to conduct their discussions in as dispassionate and variegated a manner as those who frequent a more general interest sort of music forum, for instance.

I'd never make a fuss about it (or i wouldn't come here at all), it was just my 'knee-jerk' reaction to your concerns about people being quick draws with rubbish statements. :cool:

I just find it lamentable that the 'Twitter' kind of communication (short exclamations and such) dominates much of message board life. So i feel as long as people as you or anyone else writing those long cogitations, i have a reason to come back...