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Why did Goldsmith score so many shite movies?


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You'll probably find among fans of Star Trek that there's a decent appreciation for the movie. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a big fan of it--I'll reprise the classic "it's too slow-paced" argument and even throw in that there's a certain soullessness to it...even Star Trek V has it beat out in that regards. There was a movie with a heart beating under it. With Motion Picture, there seems to be more of a focus on the technology and exploring this alien shit rather than the characters themselves. Which is cool, I guess. It does its own thing in the grand scheme of the Star Trek motion pictures. It's been a while since I watched the Director's Edition (which I sold on eBay) and Lord knows I am craving those films on Blu-ray. Depending on what the story is with the 90s era VHS, I may have never seen the theatrical version. I do like the movie. It's cool to look at and to listen to. It earns a spot on my movie shelf.

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Because it's a slow, dry, overly visual-effects-heavy, humorless, poorly-acted, pajama-wearing snoozefest! :lol:

Naturally, I'm exaggerating...a tiny bit...

Wow, I find it just fantastic, especially its theme and the plot.

I'm probably one of the few then who can take the underlying messages in such a sci-fi film serious.

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I have no problem with underlying messages - but alone, they're usually not enough to keep me interested in a film. TMP basically offers two things: message/theme/philosophy, and slow-moving eye candy. I need more than that. Others may not, and that's fine. But the Trek universe usually leaves me cold when the characters take the backseat - or get the wheel but drive terribly. And a little excitement now and then doesn't hurt, either. You can have slow AND fast paces in the same film. TWOK pulls that off brilliantly, I think. The action scenes can be very energetic, but there are also much slower and more reflective moments. Yet they all fit together into a cohesive film, and the contrast between them makes me appreciate both all the more. TMP is just...slow. All the time. That's not my cup of tea.

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Well, since we're a bit off topic anyway, my main beef with TMP isn't the pace (although that could've been tightened), but that the characters acted totally weird. Spock was all Mr. Kohlinar-serious, Kirk was totally bitchy and power-hungry, and McCoy's usual good-natured ribbing and complaining was replaced with more malicious ribbing and complaining. Without those three leading the way with a controlled plan and evidence of their deep friendship, the Enterprise family felt more than a little dysfunctional. If this was your first exposure to Trek, you got none of that feel-good dialogue that suggests that these dudes are tight, and although they sometimes bicker, they really are brothers. I actually got more warmth and humanity from Stephen Collins' performance than the TOS cast. What you end up with is human characters that act just as cold as the V'Ger probe, which doesn't gel with the plot themes of total logic versus human emotion.

That said, I still really really enjoy it when I'm in the right mood. For me, it's a lot of nostalgia (7 years old when it premiered). It's still fun to see the cast relatively youthful looking. The production design and photography is awesome. The Klingons are cool. The spaceship models are drool-inducing. And the score ain't half-bad either. :lol:

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We just discussed this in another thread so I won't overly repeat myself, but I've always enjoyed TMP, especially after the DE came out. Solid story, the pacing can be plodding but it does build up tension and V'Ger as a threat quite wonderfully, character interaction is only so-so, great effects that still stand up today, legendary score.

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I understand all your points.

And yet, I wouldn't add it to the list of, and I quote, "shite movies" Goldsmith scored.

No, it's not exactly. But it is a shadow of what the first big-screen Trek should have been and it certainly isn't a film which you would expect to inspire such a mammoth score.

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I understand all your points.

And yet, I wouldn't add it to the list of, and I quote, "shite movies" Goldsmith scored.

No, it's not exactly. But it is a shadow of what the first big-screen Trek should have been and it certainly isn't a film which you would expect to inspire such a mammoth score.

Well, if Goldsmith was as inspired as me while watching it ... ;)

He certainly captured my feelings perfectly.

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and it certainly isn't a film which you would expect to inspire such a mammoth score.

There I disagree, as per my comment above. The plot is thin, but the setting is there to write a grand score, and the pacing helps a lot. Combined with the brilliant score, they give the film an overall atmosphere which, despite all its shortcomings, turn it into something special.

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Well, since we're a bit off topic anyway, my main beef with TMP isn't the pace (although that could've been tightened), but that the characters acted totally weird. Spock was all Mr. Kohlinar-serious, Kirk was totally bitchy and power-hungry, and McCoy's usual good-natured ribbing and complaining was replaced with more malicious ribbing and complaining. Without those three leading the way with a controlled plan and evidence of their deep friendship, the Enterprise family felt more than a little dysfunctional. If this was your first exposure to Trek, you got none of that feel-good dialogue that suggests that these dudes are tight, and although they sometimes bicker, they really are brothers. I actually got more warmth and humanity from Stephen Collins' performance than the TOS cast. What you end up with is human characters that act just as cold as the V'Ger probe, which doesn't gel with the plot themes of total logic versus human emotion.

Brilliantly put. Especially the last sentence. That's probably my biggest beef with the film.

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I'm in the small crowd that feels the directors cut doesn't add anything to the film. Some of the effects look worse than the original.

I actually like the film. People forget it was quite successful at the box office. I think the film should have been written to be about 20 minutes shorter. I think the plot is a very good and interesting one, just not executed properly.

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I agree, I like the theatrical edition more. I always thought it was interesting that the characters seemed so disjointed, it seemed more in line with the tone of the film that there be a lot of questions with parts of the crew coming together instead of being immediately like old times, and it's only when logic and humanity meld that they seem more together as a family unit, which makes for not only a more satisfying ending, but also works in a better context with II, where they've been through the experience again and are more back to their old selves because of it. It certainly needs work, but I think it's one of the best.

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Yeah, I don't get that there aren't character moments. How about McCoy's introduction? Spock in the sickbay? The tension between Kirk and Decker? All the stuff between Decker and Ilia? Sure, it isn't as character driven as Wrath of Khan or some of ToS, but it's by no means bereft. The very theme of the film is love and human connection, made quite clear through Spock's personal journey and the romance between Decker and Ilia.

I do think that Uhura, Sulu and Chekov were better utilized in the sequels, though.

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Yes. There are attempts at decent character interaction, but something about it just feels subtly but thoroughly wrong. It's really hard to put your finger on, but it's there. For whatever reason, every time the characters do ANYTHING, I feel totally and utterly emotionally disconnected from them. I just don't care. Which makes it awfully difficult for me to care about the visuals or plot or message.

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I don't have a problem with the way the characters interacted with each other. Their lives have changed, Kirk is an Admiral, Spock has left and has undergone the Kolinar training. McCoy has left Starfleet too. But when both Kirk and Spock each step on the bridge for the first time you can see the warmth they all had for each other. Even Kirk mentions something along the lines of wishing their reunion was under different circumstances.

I wish they hadn't cut Uhura's line from the original version. After Kirk leaves the bridge one of the crew members takes note that Decker is captain and her response is that with Kirk in charge the odds of their surviving the mission have more than doubled.

I like the original version better too. You just can't beat.. "Viewer off... VIEWER OFF!" ;)

;)

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I wish they hadn't cut Uhura's line from the original version. After Kirk leaves the bridge one of the crew members takes note that Decker is captain and her response is that with Kirk in charge the odds of their surviving the mission have more than doubled.

See, the DE is better! ;)

It is appropriate to a degree that the character interaction is a bit cold and awkward, as it's the first time in years that they've all seen each other. But still, it goes more in the negative than positive column for me. Doesn't wreck the movie, though.

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Oh god, Williams' take on Goldsmith's TMP is just so ssssllloooowwwwwwwww...... ;) ;) :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy:

I could see Goldsmith calling him and saying "John what the hell are you doing to my music?"

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Goldsmith is like the Anthony Hopkins of movies scores.

That's actually a pretty spot on comparison.

Didn't John Williams call Jerry a "chameleon" after he died? The toe rag!

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I have great respect for a professional with a proven track record who sticks to his guns; rather than pander to commercial expectations. A bit of arrogance can pay dividends, both financially and artistically.

I agree, Quint, but it can also lead to cancelled comissions (exhibit "a" -"The Prince Of Tides").

I'm not trying to.

It's just an awful conducted version by Williams.

He's right.

You gotta imagine ponytail Jerry on a cell phone.

:)

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Do you think Goldsmith was ever approached or considered for scoring Jaws 3-D or Jaws the Revenge? That could've been interesting. Of course, with a Jaws sequel, you almost have to use Williams' shark motif, and I don't know if Goldsmith would've had a problem with that? Although he did just fine with the theme from Psycho and Twilight Zone.

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You had a conversation with Buddy Baker?! What was the context of this?

Sorry, I hadn't returned to read the rest of the thread and I missed your post. I see the thread has gone in a somewhat different direction now, but...

Baker gave a one-week summer seminar on film music at the University of Indiana back in 1997 (I think that was the year), which I attended (only time I ever was scared on a plane was the flight back from Bloomington, but that's another story). That was back when he was director of the film music program at USC. Anyway, that's where he shared this little insight about Goldsmith's psyche. :-)

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Do you think Goldsmith was ever approached or considered for scoring Jaws 3-D or Jaws the Revenge? That could've been interesting. Of course, with a Jaws sequel, you almost have to use Williams' shark motif, and I don't know if Goldsmith would've had a problem with that? Although he did just fine with the theme from Psycho and Twilight Zone.

Even Jerry Goldsmith would have baulked at the thought at scoring either of those two turds.

On the other hand, look what he did for "The Swarm", and "Poltergeist II"...

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