What Is The Last Score You Listened To? (older scores)

[KK 3,307]

We can discuss the merits of Williams' writing to no end. I think we can agree on the fact it's all crafted with great skill. I completely appreciate your tastes differering from mine - it happens all the time. But one thing bugs me here... Lincoln can be called many things, but subtle wouldn't be one of them. How is that exactly? Williams, while trying to be as restrained as possible, still paints him as a godlike entitty, Surely, with a hymn-like music such as this in the background he can't be wrong, can he? Too one-dimensional, too straightforward. For a fictional character you could have done that. But for a real-life figure it's just still... too much. Good music, but its intentions are quite, let's just say, to straightforward for me to enjoy.

You see, pub. I've been reading all the opinions over the past few weeks and I have to say, apart from a few melodic connections, I can't really say The Book Thief repeats a whole lot. Those similarities seem quite unremarkable to me - kind of like saying El Cid borrowed from Ben-Hur. Not any more than any other work from Williams did in the past 15 years or so.

Karol

See, I disagree. What you call the hymn-like parts of the score are, to me, less about the man than the history, while something like With Malice Towards None in all its humble simplicity is more tied to Lincoln himself.

Indeed. A lot of Lincoln isn't so much about Lincoln as it is about the setting and culture of that time. The music in that regard is rather poetic.

Had Williams written more bland piano tinkering, would that have been subtle enough for you?

[crocodile 8,115]

We can discuss the merits of Williams' writing to no end. I think we can agree on the fact it's all crafted with great skill. I completely appreciate your tastes differering from mine - it happens all the time. But one thing bugs me here... Lincoln can be called many things, but subtle wouldn't be one of them. How is that exactly? Williams, while trying to be as restrained as possible, still paints him as a godlike entitty, Surely, with a hymn-like music such as this in the background he can't be wrong, can he? Too one-dimensional, too straightforward. For a fictional character you could have done that. But for a real-life figure it's just still... too much. Good music, but its intentions are quite, let's just say, to straightforward for me to enjoy.

You see, pub. I've been reading all the opinions over the past few weeks and I have to say, apart from a few melodic connections, I can't really say The Book Thief repeats a whole lot. Those similarities seem quite unremarkable to me - kind of like saying El Cid borrowed from Ben-Hur. Not any more than any other work from Williams did in the past 15 years or so.

Karol

See, I disagree. What you call the hymn-like parts of the score are, to me, less about the man than the history, while something like With Malice Towards None in all its humble simplicity is more tied to Lincoln himself.

Indeed. A lot of Lincoln isn't so much about Lincoln as it is about the setting and culture of that time. The music in that regard is rather poetic.

Had Williams written more bland piano tinkering, would that have been subtle enough for you?

It would have been less intrusive, yes.

Anything but Americana Williams. I hate this side of him.

And no, it has no nationalistic/political meaning behind it, in case anyone is wondering. Just purely musical interests. It's just emotional vacuum for me, I can't relate to it.

Karol

[KK 3,307]

Karol hates America?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It's exactly With Malice Towards None that I'm talking about here. It's too (I've used that word in the other thread) hagiographic.

karol

Interesting. Maybe it's cultural. To my American ears, it may be hymn-like, but in a very earthy, folky, humble way; certainly not hagiographic (nice word). Had Williams for some reason used a more European idiom, maybe I would agree with you - but then, perhaps, you would feel as I do now. Maybe we just hear the musically "foreign" as more "lofty" no matter where we're from.

Uhoh... I got ninja'd with comments that will make this seem rife with implications of ethnic tension hahaha.

[publicist 4,643]

You see, pub. I've been reading all the opinions over the past few weeks and I have to say, apart from a few melodic connections, I can't really say The Book Thief repeats a whole lot. Those similarities seem quite unremarkable to me - kind of like saying El Cid borrowed from Ben-Hur. Not any more than any other work from Williams did in the past 15 years or so.

Karol

I think we must differentiate here between the need to defend Williams against "accusations" of cribbing his own repertoire and the sober realization that apart from all the delicacy here and understatement there, it IS just a continuation of a well-worn and conventional musical approach that wouldn't get all this attention if the composer would be called Desplat or Preisner (nice but only more of the same, i hear). So i agree it's a nice listen but if i bother to actually WRITE about it, i don't come around the fact that it hardly can be described without being compared to a, in case of AA, clearly very superior work.

But the crux may lie in this exact fact: just because it's JW, it draws so much attention that i even bother making all of these statements but in reality i'm just a bit disappointed that JW produces such a middling score so late in the game which i could have done without - but that's my egotistical side wanting only exceptional work by the old master at this point.

[crocodile 8,115]

For whatever reason I replied to your posts twice and the message has disappeared on both occasions. I'm not doing it for the third time in detail. So here go quick fire replies...

TheGreyPilgrim, it's an interesting point and I'd agree. We are all guilty of it. Westerners tend to call Desplat "fluffy tinkly piano" music which means "bad", Iglesias writes "aimless and emotionally distant music". I myself called TBT "European" which meant "good". So there you have it.

Pub, I do understand what you're getting at. But the truth is I'm getting from this music exactly what you're missing. Not sure how far this discussion can go. It's not like I'm on any crusade to defend every score by JW from evil fake fans. It's tiring and pointless and there are better things to do out there. I just respond to music, same as you do.

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

And the fitting melancholy lament for another dreary november day ending:

[crocodile 8,115]

Don't worry, we'll all die within this century. That is my only comfort.

Karol

[Incanus 5,738]

It's exactly With Malice Towards None that I'm talking about here. It's too (I've used that word in the other thread) hagiographic.

karol

Well the man was almost obnoxiously saint-like by almost every account.

[crocodile 8,115]

Clear and Present Danger

I sure enjoy it and there are some nice moments (the extended climactic action sequence is such a highlight), but 90 minutes of pan flutes/shakuhachi is a bit tiresome. Patriot Games is a much more impressive score, both in terms of colour and mood. Less traditional and more daring. What they both have in common, though, is that they use the Khatchaturian theme in a much more inspring fashion, as opposed to the rather by-the-numbers Aliens main titles - some interesting changes here, some nice orchestrating surprise there. Overall, Horner's second Jack Ryan is solid, but hardly outstanding.

The Book Thief for the third time. Sorry guys, it just clicks with me - I find this nice late autumn (slightly chilly) feel and some less defined emotional mystique irresistible. The final suite track is so far the best track of 2013.

Karol - now moving to Korzeniowski's Romeo and Juliet

[Faleel 5,465]

Karol - now moving to Korzeniowski's Romeo and Juliet

A Thousand-Times Goodnight is a great cue.

[publicist 4,643]

Clear and Present Danger

Overall, Horner's second Jack Ryan is solid, but hardly outstanding.

Though the AMBUSH dwarfs anything in PG. It should be noted that Horner (& Co.) wrote this in a mere few weeks in 1994 - which is remarkable considering the workload of 100 minutes of score.

[Incanus 5,738]

Pops Britannia (Boston Pops & John Williams): A lovely compilation of music from the British Isles. The album contains the highlight of a suite from John Williams' Jane Eyre, which the composer himself had to try to recreate by ear from the film since the original score manuscripts had been lost because the studio had basically thrown them away as a fire hazard along with many classic film and musical scores. Other greats include Delius' gentle and bucolic evocation of Brigg Fair, Irish Tune from County Derry (aka Danny Boy, arranged by Percy Grainger) and a Boston Pops commission from sir Peter Maxwell Davies, An Orkney Wedding, with Sunrise.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

That Grainger arrangement is so good!

[crocodile 8,115]

Clear and Present Danger

Overall, Horner's second Jack Ryan is solid, but hardly outstanding.

Though the AMBUSH dwarfs anything in PG. It should be noted that Horner (& Co.) wrote this in a mere few weeks in 1994 - which is remarkable considering the workload of 100 minutes of score.

I prefer the final action cue actually.

Karol

[Bespin 8,513]

Pops Britannia (Boston Pops & John Williams): A lovely compilation of music from the British Isles. The album contains the highlight of a suite from John Williams' Jane Eyre, which the composer himself had to try to recreate by ear from the film since the original score manuscripts had been lost because the studio had basically thrown them away as a fire hazard along with many classic film and musical scores.

Didn't know that, still waiting for my copy ordered via Amazon!

[Matt C 456]

Stargate Continuum - Joel Goldsmith

Stargate Atlantis - Joel Goldsmith

Robin Hood - Andy Price

I was in a "TV score" mood today.

[publicist 4,643]

Though the AMBUSH dwarfs anything in PG. It should be noted that Horner (& Co.) wrote this in a mere few weeks in 1994 - which is remarkable considering the workload of 100 minutes of score.

I prefer the final action cue actually.

Karol

As you should, but as a through-composed 10-minute cue running from minimalism over atonal chaos to heroic fanfares in one haul, THE AMBUSH is really one of Horner's last noteworthy long action cues - honourable mentions to FOUR FEATHERS's Mahdi and Escape & Zorro's Train cue.

Jeremy Soule - Elder Scrolls: Skyrim OST

Agreeable video game music that should help LOTR fans to ease the pain till HOBBIT 2 finally is released. It's a long album and - halleluja - mostly in a solemn melodical mood minus the crass RCP hammering so common in a lot of stuff from this ilk. It takes time to get through and i shudder from choosing a selection because it all blends together well. Lots of cello/string work with some tinkling synth backing, comparable to the more ethereal parts of LOTR, CHRONICLES OF NARNIA, THIN RED LINE, THE PASSION and similar stuff.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The whole score is synth.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Except for most, if not all, of the vocal/choral elements. The guitars sound live to me too, but they may very well be sampled considering his skill at getting realism out of computers.

[publicist 4,643]

Thank god it's not immediately apparent.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

You have to go back to his score for Morrowind for "obvious" synthesis - and even that sounds damn impressive for 1999.

Oops, 2002, not 1999.

[Incanus 5,738]

Thank god it's not immediately apparent.

Soule has a pretty extensive and well honed sample library at this point. For some reason he remains happy to continue using synths and samples instead of a live orchestra. Of course many projects just can't afford to hire one but it would have been nice to hear a live orchestra in many of his scores to add that extra bit of real oomph to the music.

[publicist 4,643]

This very score is so new-age-y, though, that it doesn't matter much.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

He has kind of a perplexing attitude about live players. He's a very competent and knowledgable composer, and knows and appreciates the virtues of real musicians, but as you say he's never really utilized them. I suspect it's mostly a business strategy, to keep his employers' budgets agreeable.

He did use Kickstarter to raise enough funds to record his upcoming symphony though.

[crocodile 8,115]

Is this the guy who wrote Harry Potter video game music?

Warriors of Virtue

There are two ways you can look at his music - it's either a cynical but extremely effective regurgitation of Horner's, Goldsmith's, Kamen's and Williams' styles (with quite a bit of Stravinsky) brought together into one package. Or an early and exciting fantasy score from a very skilled composers who is trying to find his feet in big picture scoring and draws only from the best. No matter which path you chose, it's so well done that, from purely technical perspective, puts most similar attempts to shame. Don Davis' own orchestrations are clear and well executed and that in itself makes this score (and quite a lengthy album) very entertaining. Some of The Matrix sound is already starting to creep in. Plus, Merovingian/Persefone theme from The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions débuts in this work (heard in both tracks posted below), as well as proto-Chateau Swashbuckling material. In any case, a predictable but very colourful and well structured music. For fans of balletic-like orchestral fantasy - you can't go far wrong.

http://youtu.be/h56acAEeN6w

http://youtu.be/I8TsBr10d1o

Karol

[Faleel 5,465]

The Harry Potter Game Guy was James Hannigan if IIRC

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

No Soule did at least a few of them.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Hannigan is pretty good in his own right, though.

[Matt C 456]

Hannigan is pretty good in his own right, though.

His score for Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix video game was excellent. It put Nicholas Hooper's live-action one to shame.

But Soule's score for the first HP game was terrific as well. It was in Williams' style but it had its own personality. Did he use an orchestra for that one? I know Hannigan did for his HP game scores.

[crocodile 8,115]

Cocoon and Black Beauty

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

The Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King

It's been a while since I've done the whole thing. Wept like a baby.

[Bespin 8,513]

John Williams - Superman: The Movie (2000, Warner Archives/Rhino)

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

Masada -- Goldsmith

This is not a score that's going to need to grow on me. The Road to Masada!

[Bilbo 3,710]

Hannigan is pretty good in his own right, though.

His score for Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix video game was excellent. It put Nicholas Hooper's live-action one to shame.

But Soule's score for the first HP game was terrific as well. It was in Williams' style but it had its own personality. Did he use an orchestra for that one? I know Hannigan did for his HP game scores.

Soule did the first two HP games. Not sure about 3 or 4. I love his Skyrim score. It's great "study" music as it fits nicely in the background and isn't too distracting. It's very nice overall and I like the way he changes the main theme with every game to suit the province of Tamriel that the game is set in.

Kojima pretty much hired him to emulate his The Replacement Killers score. It's pure electronic Harry, so if you're not a fan of that style of his then I wouldn't recommend them.

I'm sure you know Kingdom Of Heaven, which I think is his best work. Veronica Guerin would follow after. Very underrated score, that sort of fits in that Irish Celtic sound that Newman did for Road To Perdition. There's even a small melody lifted note-for-note from it. Could either be temp track syndrome or possibly some traditional Irish song that both composers utilized.

"Bad News" is amazing. Harry found this little frail boy on the street in Dublin singing, and he taped it on some crappy recorder, cleaned it up, and wrote the music to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ASuZmMIWtc&list=PLFF6DE7485244890E

His work for Ben Affleck is also really nice and low-key.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LkDJHCw15o

If you could post videos and time stamps I might be able to tell you if it is a traditional song or not if that interests you.

[crocodile 8,115]

In memory of Michael Kamen: Die Hard, Dead Zone, The New Moon in the Old Moon's Arms and The Iron Giant.

Karol

[Incanus 5,738]

In memory of Michael Kamen: Die Hard, Dead Zone, The New Moon in the Old Moon's Arms and The Iron Giant.

Karol

Thank you for the reminder! I have to listen to something in his honour later tonight. He was taken far too soon.

Pops Britannia

[crocodile 8,115]

Actually, he passed away on the 18th, but I was busy with other stuff last night.

Karol

[Incanus 5,738]

Actually, he passed away on the 18th, but I was busy with other stuff last night.

Karol

So was I, so 19th has to do. We remember you Mr. Kamen!

[crocodile 8,115]

Have you heard Back to Gaya yet, by the way? It seems very few people have. Kamen actually completed only a few sketches for this film and the rest was adapted by his associates from his unused ideas from different scores. So it's not so much his last work, but more of a tribute album. But, funnily enough, sounds completely like him.

Karol

[Jay 37,574]

I bought it but haven't yet checked it out. I should!

[Incanus 5,738]

Have you heard Back to Gaya yet, by the way? It seems very few people have. Kamen actually completed only a few sketches for this film and the rest was adapted by his associates from his unused ideas from different scores. So it's not so much his last work, but more of a tribute album. But, funnily enough, sounds completely like him.

Karol

I think I have heard it once a good while ago and it did sound like a tribute album or like a compilation. I think I will take another listen tonight.

[crocodile 8,115]

Not his best work, surely, but a lovely album nonetheless. The playing is very good. Here's a clip from the FSM Online article on the score:

The score was recorded over two weekends at Abbey Road, Studio One, Kamen’s favorite studio. Also on board was Kamen’s favorite orchestra—the London Metropolitan Orchestra, a prominent group of studio musicians who have recorded numerous film scores. “It was the gig that everyone wanted to do,” Eshkeri says. “The musicians in London, in particular, absolutely adored Michael. It was like the musicians’ wake for Michael.” As such, the orchestra was filled with ringers made up of the top musicians in the city. The trumpet section included Maurice Murphy, John Barclay and James Bond regular, Derek Watkins. First chair desks from the London Symphony Orchestra, London Philharmonic and Royal Philharmonic were scattered throughout the violin section. “Every single one of these players brought their best instruments,” says Eshkeri. “So you had a room full of tens of millions of pounds worth of Strad’s and Guarneri’s.” “You had to be careful where you stepped,” Brooks agrees. “You didn’t want to be the one that steps on a 17th century violin!”

Karol

[Incanus 5,738]

Not his best work, surely, but a lovely album nonetheless. The playing is very good. Here's a clip from the FSM Online article on the score:

The score was recorded over two weekends at Abbey Road, Studio One, Kamen’s favorite studio. Also on board was Kamen’s favorite orchestra—the London Metropolitan Orchestra, a prominent group of studio musicians who have recorded numerous film scores. “It was the gig that everyone wanted to do,” Eshkeri says. “The musicians in London, in particular, absolutely adored Michael. It was like the musicians’ wake for Michael.” As such, the orchestra was filled with ringers made up of the top musicians in the city. The trumpet section included Maurice Murphy, John Barclay and James Bond regular, Derek Watkins. First chair desks from the London Symphony Orchestra, London Philharmonic and Royal Philharmonic were scattered throughout the violin section. “Every single one of these players brought their best instruments,” says Eshkeri. “So you had a room full of tens of millions of pounds worth of Strad’s and Guarneri’s.” “You had to be careful where you stepped,” Brooks agrees. “You didn’t want to be the one that steps on a 17th century violin!”

Karol

Wow I had no idea but that is a lovely tribute and show of respect from the musicians indeed. No wonder the playing is so fine.

[KK 3,307]

Not his best work, surely, but a lovely album nonetheless. The playing is very good. Here's a clip from the FSM Online article on the score:

The score was recorded over two weekends at Abbey Road, Studio One, Kamen’s favorite studio. Also on board was Kamen’s favorite orchestra—the London Metropolitan Orchestra, a prominent group of studio musicians who have recorded numerous film scores. “It was the gig that everyone wanted to do,” Eshkeri says. “The musicians in London, in particular, absolutely adored Michael. It was like the musicians’ wake for Michael.” As such, the orchestra was filled with ringers made up of the top musicians in the city. The trumpet section included Maurice Murphy, John Barclay and James Bond regular, Derek Watkins. First chair desks from the London Symphony Orchestra, London Philharmonic and Royal Philharmonic were scattered throughout the violin section. “Every single one of these players brought their best instruments,” says Eshkeri. “So you had a room full of tens of millions of pounds worth of Strad’s and Guarneri’s.” “You had to be careful where you stepped,” Brooks agrees. “You didn’t want to be the one that steps on a 17th century violin!”

Karol

Wow, that's amazing. It's great to know Kamen is so well-respected. I thought Back to Gaya was great!

I'll be listening to his work tonight too. B

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,465]

mixed bag

I dub thee "The Mixed Bagger"

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm sure you know Kingdom Of Heaven, which I think is his best work. Veronica Guerin would follow after. Very underrated score, that sort of fits in that Irish Celtic sound that Newman did for Road To Perdition. There's even a small melody lifted note-for-note from it. Could either be temp track syndrome or possibly some traditional Irish song that both composers utilized.

If you could post videos and time stamps I might be able to tell you if it is a traditional song or not if that interests you.

Turns out it's not exactly note-for-note from what I remember, but the similarity is probably due to temp track.

1 minute and 20 seconds into this cue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEDh7X3H9PQ

Then this from Road To Perdition:

[Faleel 5,465]

Romeo and Juliet - Abel Korzienowski

Krull - James Horner

Strangely, while listening to Krull, in the Battle of the Swamp track I had fallen asleep, and was playing it in my dream with "scenes from the next Hobbit film", was a strange experience.

[Incanus 5,738]

Band of Brothers by Michael Kamen: In honour of Michael Kamen I listened to my favourite score of his where everything that is good in his music comes together. There is just beautiful melodicism and lyricism in this music, the score in turns reflective, noble, rousing, tragic and triumphant with exquisite soloist moments from most sections featured along the way. The score also featured a fine set of themes that are developed throughout the album and great many beautiful individual incidental melodies. Every piece is a treat on this album, so finely crafted, so beautifully conceived and moving and you can really hear how inspired the composer was by the subject matter. The Suites at the start of the album are a special treat where the composer can let his inspiration flow and produces brilliant development on several of the themes featured in the scores of the series, the second suite actually containing the finale of the final episode as a coda. Highly recommended to one and all!