Hans Zimmer's Best Themes?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Other composers who have proven that they can produce some great scores when they set themselves apart from the MV/RC mess include guys like Klaus Badelt or more recently, Henry Jackman.

I have to say, I had high hopes in Henry Jackman when he was about to score X-Men: First Class, but he disappointed me with that one. I expected something as great as his theme for Kick-Ass (heard in Man In The Mirror), but that was nowhere near as good as that. I admit I like the main theme from his X-Men score, but not the orchestration. If only he had went completely orchestral on this one, I think it could have been majestic. Yes, you heard me: majestic!

A lot of people gave heaps of praise for the X-Men score...I was kind of confused about that because frankly I didn't like that score at all. I couldn't understand why everyone else seemed to love it so much, its marginally better than an average MV/RC score.

But I liked Jackman's work for Puss in Boots (which did a fine job of paying homage to Horner's Zorro) and I think the man has a lot of potential in him.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I liked Jackman's work for Puss in Boots (which did a fine job of paying homage to Horner's Zorro) and I think the man has a lot of potential in him.

Oh, yeah, I liked Puss In Boots, too. And I do think the man has a lot of potential. But I'm still waiting for him to really blow me away!

[Quintus 5,399]

I lament Jackman not giving us a full blown concert arrangement of his Kick Ass theme. It had great potential.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The common moviegoers, when they hear a RC score, they think it's Zimmer. Even if the credits say it's Zimmer and another composer, they usually credit all to zimmer.

So you end surrounded by people who think zimmer is the best composer working today, all by himself. I'm annoyed everytime i hear that the POTC score are superb..

That can also drive someone who likes traditonal scoring nuts.

So it's not only the people that dont like him the ones that dismiss his collaborative effort, but his common lovers too. to some exent

[Brónach 1,302]

[A lot of people gave heaps of praise for the X-Men score...I was kind of confused about that because frankly I didn't like that score at all. I couldn't understand why everyone else seemed to love it so much, its marginally better than an average MV/RC score.

His X-Men was praised because his Magneto theme worked brilliantly in the film, and it was rock like and accesible.

[Jonesy 55]

I'm annoyed everytime i hear that the POTC score are superb..

POTC is a very overrated score, I don't understand why people say that this is a masterpiece or something, it isn't the best score that I've listened.

[alicebrallice 134]

I like more Thomas Newman these days than Zimmer. Newman follows more his individual inner voice and hansu

is more fascinated his own brilliant composing skills. That can be heard in his music.

shit. my plan backfired...

Yeah okay. I'm done.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yep, John Williams does it all by himself. No help whatsoever. Should we credit session musicians, orchestrators, copyists, mixers and programmers? Nah he can do all that on his own.

I'm done. See you all in another month.

C'mon Koray, that's completely different. You're being a drama queen. Just because the chef has someone pan frying the fish and somebody else prepping the vegetables doesn't mean he didn't originally create the dish all by himself. In Zimmer's kitchen on the other hand, he shares his basic concept for the main course with his cooks and then encourages them to contribute to it with their own ideas and suggestions, making a hot dish which was every bit the collaborative effort by the time it's ready to go.

I'm aware, but that wasn't my point. It's the general narrow-mindedness of people. There's no appreciation of anything that doesn't fit into their pigeonholed view of an entire art form. Even the dude that discovered Thomas Newman a mere week ago says he's better. I may be inclined to agree if the scenario wasn't so ridiculous.

As for Jackman's First Class... I already told you, but seems like you forgot. He wanted to go full orchestral, Williams homage, but the director told him to to turn a bass line into the main theme. It's all in his FSM interview and a video from the special features. He's a no bullshit type, kinda like you. He seemed truly pissed at the decision.

[bondo 33]

I'm with you Koray, I think people just don't do their homework before they make blanket statements about Zimmer and co.

[indy4 155]

The fact that Zimmer collaborates with others shouldn't lessen the product itself. It is still art. But it should lessen the appreciation for Zimmer as an artist he's getting a lot of help.

[wanner251 17]

Does anyone else feel that Zimmer blatantly ripped off the opening of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor for the Kraken in POTC: Dead Man's Chest? Same notes, slightly different rhythm. I don't see how he could honestly say that he wrote that without knowing...

What about Howard Shore/LOTR?

What about him?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The fact that Zimmer collaborates with others shouldn't lessen the product itself. It is still art. But it should lessen the appreciation for Zimmer as an artist he's getting a lot of help.

that's what I mean.

[Thor 7,512]

The fact that Zimmer collaborates with others shouldn't lessen the product itself. It is still art. But it should lessen the appreciation for Zimmer as an artist he's getting a lot of help.

I don't agree with that at all. Does collaboration automatically mean you're getting 'help'? I don't think that's a right word to use, as it implies a giver and receiver of said help. It is what it is....a collaboration. Creativity is created in a group, not by an individual. It's the same thing as two band members creating a song together.

And even if it could be defined as 'help' (which I don't agree that it is), it still doesn't lessen the works he's done solo. The collaborative efforts belong to the exceptions, after all.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

As for Jackman's First Class... I already told you, but seems like you forgot. He wanted to go full orchestral, Williams homage, but the director told him to to turn a bass line into the main theme. It's all in his FSM interview and a video from the special features. He's a no bullshit type, kinda like you. He seemed truly pissed at the decision.

Hey, calm down, Ko-Ray, or I'll calm you down!

I remember you saying that. But even taking it into account, the end result is still disappointing (apart from the main theme): I don't get what the fuss is all about regarding Magneto's theme, and I find the love theme a bit bland. But I've heard worse, that much is certain.

This.

I would have liked to hear what Jackman would have done with a more orchestral approach, but the score would have probably still be lacking.

And do all people love Magneto's theme just on the basis that it works on film? There are a lot of things that could have worked on film for him...hey even if he had the "Joker's Theme" it might have worked. Would people be shouting praise for that?

[Brónach 1,302]

hey even if he had the "Joker's Theme" it might have worked. Would people be shouting praise for that?

That wouldn't work.

The film would have benefited from Jackman having more freedom though.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The fact that Zimmer collaborates with others shouldn't lessen the product itself. It is still art. But it should lessen the appreciation for Zimmer as an artist he's getting a lot of help.

I don't agree with that at all. Does collaboration automatically mean you're getting 'help'? I don't think that's a right word to use, as it implies a giver and receiver of said help. It is what it is....a collaboration. Creativity is created in a group, not by an individual. It's the same thing as two band members creating a song together.

And even if it could be defined as 'help' (which I don't agree that it is), it still doesn't lessen the works he's done solo. The collaborative efforts belong to the exceptions, after all.

call it whatever you want.

In order to not hurt any sensibilities to compare quality, craftmanship and genius, you then have to compare single composers with single composers, and collaborative composers with collaborative composers. If not the collaboratives are going always to lose the match with the singles since everyone can see that if someone alone achieves something, it's worth more than a group of people doing a similar work...

[Thor 7,512]

The fact that Zimmer collaborates with others shouldn't lessen the product itself. It is still art. But it should lessen the appreciation for Zimmer as an artist he's getting a lot of help.

I don't agree with that at all. Does collaboration automatically mean you're getting 'help'? I don't think that's a right word to use, as it implies a giver and receiver of said help. It is what it is....a collaboration. Creativity is created in a group, not by an individual. It's the same thing as two band members creating a song together.

And even if it could be defined as 'help' (which I don't agree that it is), it still doesn't lessen the works he's done solo. The collaborative efforts belong to the exceptions, after all.

call it whatever you want.

In order to not hurt any sensibilities to compare quality, craftmanship and genius, you then have to compare single composers with single composers, and collaborative composers with collaborative composers. If not the collaboratives are going always to lose the match with the singles since everyone can see that if someone alone achieves something, it's worth more than a group of people doing a similar work...

I'm sorry, but that's just plain silliness. A musical piece's quality should be judged by its quality alone. And I also don't agree that a solo work is somehow automatically more valuable than a group effort. I don't know where you got that notion from.

[Quintus 5,399]

Is it not possible that a lone musician might have a certain focus which perhaps a group would not? Strong focus usually translates into something of merit and often a special quality, doesn't it?

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I would use the word "art" sparingly with zimmer, the better word would be effectiveness, business and ignorance. Along with(hidden) talent.

[Northwest21 0]

Hans Zimmer's themes are one of the strongest tools in his arsenal. I can't stand to listen to his music outside of the film, but he certainly finds a way to give the film what it needs, just about every time.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Hans Zimmer's themes are one of the strongest tools in his arsenal. I can't stand to listen to his music outside of the film, but he certainly finds a way to give the film what it needs, just about every time.

Yes.

I would use the word "art" sparingly with zimmer, the better word would be effectiveness, business and ignorance. Along with talent.

[indy4 155]

The fact that Zimmer collaborates with others shouldn't lessen the product itself. It is still art. But it should lessen the appreciation for Zimmer as an artist he's getting a lot of help.

I don't agree with that at all. Does collaboration automatically mean you're getting 'help'? I don't think that's a right word to use, as it implies a giver and receiver of said help. It is what it is....a collaboration. Creativity is created in a group, not by an individual. It's the same thing as two band members creating a song together.

And even if it could be defined as 'help' (which I don't agree that it is), it still doesn't lessen the works he's done solo. The collaborative efforts belong to the exceptions, after all.

To be clear, I'm not saying that a great artist becomes less great when he/she collaborates. I'm just saying that Zimmer's status as an artist would be higher if his scores were done on his own (assuming the quality does not change).

The reason is, the man simply didn't write the entire work, and you can't give him credit for an awesome passage that somebody else wrote.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

that.

I just cant get myself to explain better, i suppose.

[Thor 7,512]

Is it not possible that a lone musician might have a certain focus which perhaps a group would not? Strong focus usually translates into something of merit and often a special quality, doesn't it?

Likewise, a group may consist of different creative impulses meshing together in a new and fresh whole that is more important than a singular voice. So there are advantages and disadvantages both ways. What matters is the end result, nothing else.

The fact that Zimmer collaborates with others shouldn't lessen the product itself. It is still art. But it should lessen the appreciation for Zimmer as an artist he's getting a lot of help.

To be clear, I'm not saying that a great artist becomes less great when he/she collaborates. I'm just saying that Zimmer's status as an artist would be higher if his scores were done on his own (assuming the quality does not change).

The reason is, the man simply didn't write the entire work, and you can't give him credit for an awesome passage that somebody else wrote.

Well, first of all, most of his works are solo efforts, so you're talking about the exceptions here. Let that be perfectly clear.

Second, I think his status as an artist is perfectly fine the way it is (you know, him being one of the greatest and most influential film composers of our time and everything). It's usually only in more reactionary niche fora (like this place and FSM) that the general attitude is negative.

Third, he always gives credit to the composers he uses (if he uses some), unlike most other composers, so he's not taking credit for anyone's else's music, if that's what you're saying.

Fourth (and I said above) I believe in the autonomy of the text; the end result. The music could have been written by twelve giraffes hanging from the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, that's really irrelevant to me (although that would be cool, I admit! ). What matters is what the produce is, and I'll judge the artistic merits accordingly.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Thor, I pass the light of Zimmer on to you to. Carry it with pride!

[Brónach 1,302]

I think what happens here is that some have encountered people giving credit to Zimmer for a series of passages and works he hadn't done and/or treating him as a sort of composing legend that's compared to completely different types of music, and they've become wary of the whole thing.

The other detail that I think you're not getting is that, while a collaborative effort might be brilliant, the work of the each of the different composers on that specific work can't be compared with something created entirely by one guy the size of the previous collaborative effort or even more complex, with a clear single voice. Which is obvious to start with (maybe it's that). I don't know how to rephrase it anymore lol

And another detail that you're not getting is that they are already aware of the four points you mention and these points don't come into play with the issue at hand (you tend to deviate sometimes). It's not about how good the end result is. It's in fact such a tiny thing that I feel stupid explaining this!

[Thor 7,512]

Thor, I pass the light of Zimmer on to you to. Carry it with pride!

I will!

I think what happens here is that some have encountered people giving credit to Zimmer for a series of passages and works he hadn't done and/or treating him as a sort of composing legend that's compared to completely different types of music, and they've become wary of the whole thing

That's not Zimmer's fault, though. If he he has collaborators, he lists them clearly, in credit sequences and liner notes.

The other detail that I think you're not getting is that, while a collaborative effort might be brilliant, the work of the each of the different composers on that specific work can't be compared with something created entirely by one guy the size of the previous collaborative effort or even more complex, with a clear single voice. Which is obvious to start with (maybe it's that). I don't know how to rephrase it anymore lol

In terms of extensiveness, I agree that a solo work often requires more work (especially if it has lots of music). But I don't agree that a collaborative effort is somehow less valuable or less creative etc.

And another detail that you're not getting is that they are already aware of the four points you mention and these points don't come into play with the issue at hand (you tend to deviate sometimes). It's not about how good the end result is.

To me, it is.

[indy4 155]

Is it not possible that a lone musician might have a certain focus which perhaps a group would not? Strong focus usually translates into something of merit and often a special quality, doesn't it?

Likewise, a group may consist of different creative impulses meshing together in a new and fresh whole that is more important than a singular voice. So there are advantages and disadvantages both ways. What matters is the end result, nothing else.

The fact that Zimmer collaborates with others shouldn't lessen the product itself. It is still art. But it should lessen the appreciation for Zimmer as an artist he's getting a lot of help.

To be clear, I'm not saying that a great artist becomes less great when he/she collaborates. I'm just saying that Zimmer's status as an artist would be higher if his scores were done on his own (assuming the quality does not change).

The reason is, the man simply didn't write the entire work, and you can't give him credit for an awesome passage that somebody else wrote.

Well, first of all, most of his works are solo efforts, so you're talking about the exceptions here. Let that be perfectly clear.

Second, I think his status as an artist is perfectly fine the way it is (you know, him being one of the greatest and most influential film composers of our time and everything). It's usually only in more reactionary niche fora (like this place and FSM) that the general attitude is negative.

Third, he always gives credit to the composers he uses (if he uses some), unlike most other composers, so he's not taking credit for anyone's else's music, if that's what you're saying.

Fourth (and I said above) I believe in the autonomy of the text; the end result. The music could have been written by twelve giraffes hanging from the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, that's really irrelevant to me (although that would be cool, I admit! ). What matters is what the produce is, and I'll judge the artistic merits accordingly.

None of what you wrote contradicted what I have been saying.

1. I didn't know that, but it doesn't affect my position.

2. I'm not saying that Zimmer has done anything artistically wrong in collaborating with others. All I'm saying is that he would have more artistic points in my book if he had written more good stuff on his own. For instance, the fact that "Kyrie for Magdalene" is included in the Da Vinci Code score does not contribute to my opinion of Zimmer as an artist, because he didn't compose it. If it was I would respect Zimmer more as an artist, because it's a great piece of music. But as it is, it neither adds nor subtract from Zimmer's artistic worth as I see it. It's the same reason why you can't respect Jerry Goldsmith more due to the score to Star Wars--because he didn't write it.

3. No, that's not what I'm saying. I am not attacking Zimmer morally, I am not attacking him artistically. I am saying that he has written less music than it may seem, thus, assuming all of it is good music, he has written less good music than it may seem. He has done everything he should be doing to give credit where credit is due, as far as I know.

4. I agree. When evaluating the artistic merits of the work as a whole, obviously it doesn't matter how many people created it. But when assigning artistic merit to the individuals that worked on the product, you can't give one man 100% of the credit. You would give each person a portion of the credit.

All I'm saying is that Zimmer deserves a portion of the credit rather than 100% of the credit for the scores he collaborates on. It doesn't diminish the quality of the music, it doesn't diminish the moral or artistic character of the man.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

No one's saying he deserves 100% credit.

[indy4 155]

I know, but apparently my position in this debate is equally foggy so I felt the need to clarify.

[Thor 7,512]

As Koray said, Zimmer has always - ALWAYS! - credited his collaborators when he's used them. He's never taken 100% credit for something that wasn't 100% his own.

"More good stuff on his own", you say. Well, most of his stuff he's composed on his own. I don't know how much exposure you've had to his work, but I could probably list a very long list of works that I consider good and that he's done on his own.

Of course, whether we evaluate something as 'good' or 'not good' is purely subjective, so that's not really a point that can be debated in any fruitful way. But that he's somehow a lesser artist because he sometimes uses collaborators, is a notion I would disagree strongly with, on a pure principal level.

[Brónach 1,302]

But that he's somehow a lesser artist because he sometimes uses collaborators, is a notion I would disagree strongly with, on a pure principal level.

Actually nobody is saying this I think.

[Thor 7,512]

But that he's somehow a lesser artist because he sometimes uses collaborators, is a notion I would disagree strongly with, on a pure principal level.

Actually nobody is saying this I think.

I think it's being inferred all over the place.

[Brónach 1,302]

No, if people think Zimmer is a lesser artist that somebody else they don't think that's because he's collaborated with people. They probably have actual motives to think that way, instead of the collaboration thing.

(Why you do that? You "assume" somebody means something and direct all your arguments to that thing even if you don't know what people actually mean. That's why they have told you on occasions that your posts have no relevance to the thing at hand, like indy4 above.)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I like where this thread is going...

[Thor 7,512]

No, if people think Zimmer is a lesser artist that somebody else they don't think that's because he's collaborated with people. They probably have actual motives to think that way, instead of the collaboration thing.

(Why you do that? You "assume" somebody means something and direct all your arguments to that thing even if you don't know what people actually mean. That's why they have told you on occasions that your posts have no relevance to the thing at hand, like indy4 above.)

Well, it's not like it's something I take 'out of the blue'. If you will, I can quote several comments in this thread that would lead me in that direction. I thought it was pretty obvious, but apparently not.

Maybe it's the whole internet forum thing, where you don't see body language and don't always get the language as clearly as possible.

[chuck 154]

I like where this thread is going...

Ah, an Ouroboros.

[indy4 155]

As Koray said, Zimmer has always - ALWAYS! - credited his collaborators when he's used them. He's never taken 100% credit for something that wasn't 100% his own.

3. No, that's not what I'm saying. I am not attacking Zimmer morally, I am not attacking him artistically. I am saying that he has written less music than it may seem, thus, assuming all of it is good music, he has written less good music than it may seem. He has done everything he should be doing to give credit where credit is due, as far as I know.

"More good stuff on his own", you say. Well, most of his stuff he's composed on his own. I don't know how much exposure you've had to his work, but I could probably list a very long list of works that I consider good and that he's done on his own.

I didn't know that, but it doesn't affect my position

Of course, whether we evaluate something as 'good' or 'not good' is purely subjective, so that's not really a point that can be debated in any fruitful way. But that he's somehow a lesser artist because he sometimes uses collaborators, is a notion I would disagree strongly with, on a pure principal level.

2. I'm not saying that Zimmer has done anything artistically wrong in collaborating with others. All I'm saying is that he would have more artistic points in my book if he had written more good stuff on his own. For instance, the fact that "Kyrie for Magdalene" is included in the Da Vinci Code score does not contribute to my opinion of Zimmer as an artist, because he didn't compose it. If it was I would respect Zimmer more as an artist, because it's a great piece of music. But as it is, it neither adds nor subtract from Zimmer's artistic worth as I see it. It's the same reason why you can't respect Jerry Goldsmith more due to the score to Star Wars--because he didn't write it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Zimmer isn't less of an artist if he works with others, but his score is less respectable if others have worked on it? How does that make sense?

Take your least favorite JW score and your favorite Zimmer score. Most will probably say the JW is better because he did it all on his own. It's that kind of mentality that I don't understand, that because multiple people contributed to a whole, that the whole has to suffer. If that attitude was applied to the films the music accompanies, everything would be shit. No film is made by one man.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Northwest21 0]

Ko-Ray, imagine this: there are 10 men raping a girl in the streets. There is a dude, with 50 friends, just passing by. He witness the rape, and decides to help the girl with his 50 friends.

Now, take the same situation, but this time with one dude passing by who is alone, with no friends. He decides to help the girl.

Who do you think is the bravest man? The dude with his 50 friends, or the lonely dude?

Interesting choice of hypotheticals...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Ko-Ray, imagine this: there are 10 men raping a girl in the streets. There is a dude, with 50 friends, just passing by. He witness the rape, and decides to help the girl with his 50 friends.

Now, take the same situation, but this time with one dude passing by who is alone, with no friends. He decides to help the girl.

Who do you think is the bravest man? The dude with his 50 friends, or the lonely dude?

We're talking about art, not sidewalk heroics. Either way, you can be the bravest man alive, but one dude against 10 rapists is quite a challenge. I hope you don't get stabbed, BloodBro.

[indy4 155]

Zimmer isn't less of an artist if he works with others, but his score is less respectable if others have worked on it? How does that make sense?

Take your least favorite JW score and your favorite Zimmer score. Most will probably say the JW is better because he did it all on his own. It's that kind of mentality that I don't understand, that because multiple people contributed to a whole, that the whole has to suffer. If that attitude was applied to the films the music accompanies, everything would be shit. No film is made by one man.

I've already addressed this issue and I've already quoted myself addressing it. Here's one more try:

The fact that multiple people work on a score does NOT make the score better or worse. But when you go to assign individual points to each contributor, none would get 100% of the credit. They would each get a portion. So pretend we're comparing a score by Zimmer and friends with a score by John Williams. Both scores are equal in length and quality. They would be equally valuable as works of art, but based on the two scores I would respect Williams more as an artist because he wrote more of the music in his score than Zimmer did.

[Thor 7,512]

Zimmer isn't less of an artist if he works with others, but his score is less respectable if others have worked on it? How does that make sense?

Take your least favorite JW score and your favorite Zimmer score. Most will probably say the JW is better because he did it all on his own. It's that kind of mentality that I don't understand, that because multiple people contributed to a whole, that the whole has to suffer. If that attitude was applied to the films the music accompanies, everything would be shit. No film is made by one man.

I've already addressed this issue and I've already quoted myself addressing it. Here's one more try:

The fact that multiple people work on a score does NOT make the score better or worse. But when you go to assign individual points to each contributor, none would get 100% of the credit. They would each get a portion. So pretend we're comparing a score by Zimmer and friends with a score by John Williams. Both scores are equal in length and quality. They would be equally valuable as works of art, but based on the two scores I would respect Williams more as an artist because he wrote more of the music in his score than Zimmer did.

Well, that's your right. Personally, I think there's just as much creative potential in a collaboration (filmmaking should be the ultimate example!). A different kind of artistic creation than pure solo, sure, but just as equal in its own way. It then becomes a matter of blending creative impulses into one coherent whole.

[bondo 33]

Ditto what Thor said. This is not an issue about "better" or "worse," but "different."

[Brónach 1,302]

Take your least favorite JW score and your favorite Zimmer score. Most will probably say the JW is better because he did it all on his own.

In JW fan? No. They would probably shoot JW down and hail the Zimmer score.

And why are you assuming that the Zimmer score would be a collaboration?

I think my favourite Zimmer score he did on his own without the film plus a pair or preexisting themes. I like that one. It's cooler than its OST.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Zimmer isn't less of an artist if he works with others, but his score is less respectable if others have worked on it? How does that make sense?

Take your least favorite JW score and your favorite Zimmer score. Most will probably say the JW is better because he did it all on his own. It's that kind of mentality that I don't understand, that because multiple people contributed to a whole, that the whole has to suffer. If that attitude was applied to the films the music accompanies, everything would be shit. No film is made by one man.

I've already addressed this issue and I've already quoted myself addressing it. Here's one more try:

The fact that multiple people work on a score does NOT make the score better or worse. But when you go to assign individual points to each contributor, none would get 100% of the credit. They would each get a portion. So pretend we're comparing a score by Zimmer and friends with a score by John Williams. Both scores are equal in length and quality. They would be equally valuable as works of art, but based on the two scores I would respect Williams more as an artist because he wrote more of the music in his score than Zimmer did.

So he is a lesser artist because he works with others? You say you respect him less as an artist.