In about a month THE controversial score of our times turns 10.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl

You remember, don't you? No film score in memory has so drawn the ire of score fans while bringing in boatloads of money, having such a crazy story behind it (Alan Silvestri got booted in favor of Media Ventures/RCP; Zimmer couldn't take any credit so Klaus Badelt did; ultra-short time to score, an army of ghost writers), and ultimately throwing off any traditional sense of swashbuckling, which in and of itself should not be a bad thing, otherwise we'd be listening to the same music for the next forever years.

Here we are a month shy of ten years later.

To quote the computer in Star Trek III:

"How do you feel?"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Meh...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Bah...

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

So it wasn't the end of good music as we know it? Was it all mass hysteria?

[Datameister 2,059]

It was my introduction to MV/RCP-style scores, and for all its shortcomings, I still get a kick out of it.

[gkgyver 1,646]

I was a musical illiterate back then, and even I realised it was lazy and too repetitous.

[crocodile 8,033]

I was introduced to Zimmer and Co. by The Lion King and then, years later, by The Peacemaker. None of which is a bad score.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I was introduced to Zimmer and Co. by The Lion King and then, years later, by The Peacemaker. None of which is a bad score.

Karol

But it is bad English!

[crocodile 8,033]

Almost nobody in this country knows proper English, I noticed!

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

For a moment there I thought to myself, is Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull 10 already?

[Marian Schedenig 8,238]

So it wasn't the end of good music as we know it? Was it all mass hysteria?

Goldsmith's death was the end of good music as we know it. Or at least it was the point where I realised that very little worthwhile film music was written anymore.

[crocodile 8,033]

It's 5.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Goldsmith's death was the end of good music as we know it. Or at least it was the point where I realised that very little worthwhile film music was written anymore.

Of course, there is! It just doesn't get at much exposure as it once did.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with Marian. Since 2004 good scores have become an exception rather then a rule!

Especially in the action or thriller genres.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, it's crazy and depressing to think there was a time was when we could rely on the latest action bonanza to come packaged with another awesome instabuy score for your listening pleasure, like it was the norm.

[crocodile 8,033]

I thought this era ended in mid-80's.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Hey man, I was still very much enjoying action movie music from Cliffhanger through to Speed and beyond.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No way, lots of great stuff in the 90's.

Kamen, Poledouris, Goldsmith still with us. Silvestri in his best period. Arnold rising.

[Quintus 5,399]

Fucking eh. ID4? That score genuinely blew me away, back in the day. Leitmotif wise, Arnold was openly challenging Williams with that score.

[crocodile 8,033]

I still find things to enjoy now, and some of the things I loved in the 90's sound weaker today. Older fans (than you, that is) were never impressed with the 90's at all and younger have a blast right now. It's all relative.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Perhaps, but how do you know? Are you not assuming quite a lot there?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Historical precedence shows that every older generation has felt the newer generation has gone to shit. We have archeological records.

What more evidence could you need?

It is more unlikely that our generation is the first to be correct, than our generation just following this natural order.

[Incanus 5,723]

I have listened to the Curse of the Black Pearl outside the film a single time in these 10 years. It was enough.

[Quintus 5,399]

Historical precedence shows that every older generation has felt the newer generation has gone to shit. We have archeological records.

What more evidence could you need?

Pop music, absolutely. But I'd need proof that the same applies to film music. Or any other specialist genre. I mean, classical is clearly exempt from that theory, so why not other kinds of music, too?

And Joey descending onto the debate to put me right isn't what I mean by proof either

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Here is a slightly unrelated bit of research, that could yield an interesting hypothesis:

Our brains become less dopamine dependent as we age. Dopamine has been shown to play a major role in our enjoying music. A valid hypothesis might be that as we become less dopamine dependent with age, we are less likely to enjoy music we are exposed to in older age.

The wikipedia article on brain aging has a section on dopamine:

An overwhelming number of studies have reported age-related changes in dopamine synthesis, binding sites, and number of receptors. Studies using positron emission tomography (PET) in living human subjects have shown a significant age-related decline in dopamine synthesis,^[20] notably in the striatum and extrastriatal regions (excluding the midbrain).^[21] Significant age-related decreases in dopamine receptors D₁, D₂, and D₃ have also been highly reported.^{[22][23][24][25][26]} A general decrease in D₁ and D₂ receptors has been shown,^[24] and more specifically a decrease of D₁ and D₂ receptor binding in thecaudate nucleus and putamen.^[23][26] A general decrease in D₁ receptor density has also been shown to occur with age. Significant age-related declines in dopamine receptors, D₂ and D₃ were detected in theanterior cingulate cortex, frontal cortex, lateral temporal cortex, hippocampus, medial temporal cortex, amygdala, medial thalamus, and lateral thalamus^[22] One study also indicated a significant inverse correlation between dopamine binding in the occipital cortex and age.^[23] Postmortem studies also show that the number of D₁ and D₂ receptors decline with age in both the caudate nucleus and the putamen, although the ratio of these receptors did not show age-related changes.^[25] The loss of dopamine with age is thought to be responsible for many neurological symptoms that increase in frequency with age, such as decreased arm swing and increased rigidity.^[27] Changes in dopamine levels may also cause age-related changes in cognitive flexibility.

Too long, did not read version: everything related to dopamine decreases as you age.

If my hypothesis is true...it actually makes me quite sad: through no fault of my own, I will inevitably enjoy all this wonderful music less and less as I age.

[mrbellamy 6,333]

I got a real kick out of it when I first heard it in the film, bought the soundtrack, and was kind of amazed at how empty it sounded on its own. It's still probably the score that has the biggest discrepancy of enjoyment between film and album, for me.

[crocodile 8,033]

Perhaps, but how do you know? Are you not assuming quite a lot there?

Maybe, maybe not.

But the way you experience new music has changed drastically in the past 15 years or so. You're now bombarded with stuff, tons of films are being made right now, you hear samples, connect with the people all over the world and get to hear their opinions on every single subject. It's no wonder you get cynical and unimpressed. There are so many scores being written at the moment it's hard to hold you attention for too long. The culture is speeding up. Not so in the mid-90's where you got the albums from a physical store and had no internet to spoil it for you.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm sure that study is interesting and largely valid, but I wouldn't consider it gospel on the matter. Pop music, yes. Ultra specialist? No.

Perhaps, but how do you know? Are you not assuming quite a lot there?

Maybe, maybe not.

But the way you experience new music has changed drastically in the past 15 years or so. You're now bombarded with stuff, tons of films are being made right now, you hear samples, connect with the people all over the world and get to hear their opinions on every single subject. It's no wonder you get cynical and unimpressed with things. There are so many things being written at the moment it's hard to hold you attention for too long. The culture is speeding up. Not so in the mid-90's where you got the albums from a physical store and had no internet to spoil it for you.

Karol

This I can definitely agree with.

[Incanus 5,723]

Perhaps, but how do you know? Are you not assuming quite a lot there?

Maybe, maybe not.

But the way you experience new music has changed drastically in the past 15 years or so. You're now bombarded with stuff, tons of films are being made right now, you hear samples, connect with the people all over the world and get to hear their opinions on every single subject. It's no wonder you get cynical and unimpressed with things. There are so many things being written at the moment it's hard to hold you attention for too long. The culture is speeding up. Not so in the mid-90's where you got the albums from a physical store and had no internet to spoil it for you.

Karol

This is very true. The flood of information (and different medias) is staggering and in trying to catch it all our attention spans shorten and we automatically start to sample smaller snippets of things here and there and most things to do not hold our attention for very long. I think this can affect the way you experience e.g. music a lot.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

It's the age old supermarket problem in marketing. The more choice you have in your aisle, the less satisfying your decision becomes.

GOD DAMMIT DISH DETERGENT COMPANIES. Don't you realize by letting me pick if my plates smell like a pine forest or orange blossom or a bee's ass you are lessening my enjoyment of your dish detergent!?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Leitmotif wise, Arnold was openly challenging Williams with that score.

That's about all ID4's got going for it. Lots of hummable themes.

[Quintus 5,399]

Perhaps, but how do you know? Are you not assuming quite a lot there?

Maybe, maybe not.

But the way you experience new music has changed drastically in the past 15 years or so. You're now bombarded with stuff, tons of films are being made right now, you hear samples, connect with the people all over the world and get to hear their opinions on every single subject. It's no wonder you get cynical and unimpressed with things. There are so many things being written at the moment it's hard to hold you attention for too long. The culture is speeding up. Not so in the mid-90's where you got the albums from a physical store and had no internet to spoil it for you.

Karol

This is very true. The flood of information (and different medias) is staggering and in trying to catch it all our attention spans shorten and we automatically start to sample smaller snippets of things here and there and most things to do not hold our attention for very long. I think this can affect the way you experience e.g. music a lot.

Which all leads into the massive problem we now have with entitlement and casual off-handed criticism. To say that the internet marked the dawn of a new fickle age is an understatement.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Here is a slightly unrelated bit of research, that could yield an interesting hypothesis:

Our brains become less dopamine dependent as we age. Dopamine has been shown to play a major role in our enjoying music. A valid hypothesis might be that as we become less dopamine dependent with age, we are less likely to enjoy music we are exposed to in older age.

The wikipedia article on brain aging has a section on dopamine:

I'm 21. How does that apply to me?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Which all leads into the massive problem we now have with entitlement and casual off-handed criticism.

Indeed. But John Williams is a hack.

Here is a slightly unrelated bit of research, that could yield an interesting hypothesis:

Our brains become less dopamine dependent as we age. Dopamine has been shown to play a major role in our enjoying music. A valid hypothesis might be that as we become less dopamine dependent with age, we are less likely to enjoy music we are exposed to in older age.

The wikipedia article on brain aging has a section on dopamine:

I'm 21. How does that apply to me?

Well obviously it's nuanced. And not even every old person might have a decline in dopamine. Hence why you shouldn't take it as gospel.

For example, there are mathematical studies that show a lot of mainstream music is getting more homogenous in this decade. It all sounds the same. So on top of the age-related decline in music enjoyment, music might actually be getting worse at this point in time. That could be a cyclical component.

Music gets better and worse in cycles through time. Despite that, as you become old you enjoy it less regardless. In some cases if you are old at the right time, you have valid reasons supporting your old man ways.

So for example, if you're a old dopamine-immune man hating Hans Zimmer today, you might be right that it all sounds the same. But if you were an old man hating on John Williams in the 70s, you might have been wrong in your claims that he is a talentless hack. But you hated it all anyway because of a biological mechanism.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Perhaps, but how do you know? Are you not assuming quite a lot there?

Maybe, maybe not.

But the way you experience new music has changed drastically in the past 15 years or so. You're now bombarded with stuff, tons of films are being made right now, you hear samples, connect with the people all over the world and get to hear their opinions on every single subject. It's no wonder you get cynical and unimpressed with things. There are so many things being written at the moment it's hard to hold you attention for too long. The culture is speeding up. Not so in the mid-90's where you got the albums from a physical store and had no internet to spoil it for you.

Karol

This is very true. The flood of information (and different medias) is staggering and in trying to catch it all our attention spans shorten and we automatically start to sample smaller snippets of things here and there and most things to do not hold our attention for very long. I think this can affect the way you experience e.g. music a lot.

Which all leads into the massive problem we now have with entitlement and casual off-handed criticism. To say that the internet marked the dawn of a new fickle age is an understatement.

It's a generational thing. Visual and audio overstimulation makes us take everything for granted. Our values have changed.

[Quintus 5,399]

He's worse than a hack. He's an aloof sophisticate.

[Jay 37,445]

Knew this was a blume headline as soon as I saw it

[crocodile 8,033]

Perhaps, but how do you know? Are you not assuming quite a lot there?

Maybe, maybe not.

But the way you experience new music has changed drastically in the past 15 years or so. You're now bombarded with stuff, tons of films are being made right now, you hear samples, connect with the people all over the world and get to hear their opinions on every single subject. It's no wonder you get cynical and unimpressed with things. There are so many things being written at the moment it's hard to hold you attention for too long. The culture is speeding up. Not so in the mid-90's where you got the albums from a physical store and had no internet to spoil it for you.

Karol

This is very true. The flood of information (and different medias) is staggering and in trying to catch it all our attention spans shorten and we automatically start to sample smaller snippets of things here and there and most things to do not hold our attention for very long. I think this can affect the way you experience e.g. music a lot.

Which all leads into the massive problem we now have with entitlement and casual off-handed criticism. To say that the internet marked the dawn of a new fickle age is an understatement.

Yes, because now we not only react to things, but to other peoples' reactions to those things as well.

Karol

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Knew this was a blume headline as soon as I saw it

I recognize yours as well.

"...(Varese _____________)"

"...(La La Land Records ______________)"

"...(Prometheus Records _______________)"

"...(FSM __________________)"

"...(Intrada _______________)"

[Quintus 5,399]

Leitmotif wise, Arnold was openly challenging Williams with that score.

That's about all ID4's got going for it. Lots of hummable themes.

It's an enjoyable but really vulgar score to my ear today, but I still very much appreciate its attack; dripping in schmaltz though it may be. More than ANYTHING ELSE in the medium I miss Attack.

[indy4 155]

Good thread (and not just for making me revisit the score to ID4).

I'd say looking back at PotC ten years later makes a more negative impression than in 2003--the score itself is harmless and fun, but the impact it has had on art of film music, so obvious 10 years later, is the real problem.

That said, it is a fun listen, and it spawned two good/great sequel scores (especially AWE), so I can't help but look back with some happy nostalgia.

One thing I think is interesting is that most casual fans credit Hans Zimmer with the PotC themes, even though credit was given to Klaus Badelt. They're right in doing so, since it was basically Zimmer's big picture ideas with Badelt's execution, I would just think that for the casual fan they would check the IMDb listing and give credit to Badelt.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

I think it's the attack balanced with the peace. That sense of drama that even ID4 had is gone. It's replaced with a constant attack or a constant drone. Everyone either fires everything at once, or just holds everything back to be artsy.

[Quintus 5,399]

Honestly Blume, I don't hear any Attack in any film music these days. Even Lord Zimmer in all of his populist might sounds like he's phoning shit in. Except maybe for that ridiculously overplayed but admittedly very potent Inception cue. Oh and what the Daft Punk boys did with Tron Legacy.

Other than that, nothing.

[indy4 155]

Did you not even like the action music from War Horse?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Honestly Blume, I don't hear any Attack in any film music these days. Even Lord Zimmer in all of his populist might sounds like he's phoning shit in. Except maybe for that ridiculously overplayed but admittedly very potent Inception cue. Oh and what the Daft Punk boys did with Tron Legacy.

Other than that, nothing.

Ok, I think I misunderstood your original meaning. Makes sense, and I largely agree.

[Quintus 5,399]

Did you not even like the action music from War Horse?

I thought it was reasonable, in an otherwise awful score. Gorgeous melody in the main theme, though.

Honestly Blume, I don't hear any Attack in any film music these days. Even Lord Zimmer in all of his populist might sounds like he's phoning shit in. Except maybe for that ridiculously overplayed but admittedly very potent Inception cue. Oh and what the Daft Punk boys did with Tron Legacy.

Other than that, nothing.

Ok, I think I misunderstood your original meaning. Makes sense, and I largely agree.

You know when you watch a movie or listen to a score and sense the composer really fucking going at it with everything he knows?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Powell's How To Train Your Dragon.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

That's a good example actually.

What do you think Quint?

[Quintus 5,399]

Saw the movie, enjoyed it. The music was reminiscent of a typical Debney adventure to me, not much more. I'd have to listen to it again I suppose, properly.

What I'm saying though is the score didn't jump into my conciousness. But I do like Powell's Bourne work.

[Ollie 1,063]

Didn't give a shit about the music 10 years ago, still don't now.