The Desolation of Smaug SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But if Thrain is still alive, he is the rightful heir of Erebor, not Thorin!

Is this gonna be like Arwen in ROTK? Where is doesnt really make sense so they try and fix it in the edit?

[Barnald 365]

He'll die in those scenes, don't worry about that. The fighting doesn't really make sense since he should be very weak and frail, but I'm guessing they'll tie his unnatural strength to the Dwarven ring of power.

[Jay 37,372]

Oh yea! I totally forgot they made a point to bring up Thrain's ring in the AUJ EE and then it doesn't get mentioned once in DOS...

[MedigoScan 324]

Well I am assuming thats why that scene was only in the EE

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree, it will probably be mentioned in the EE.

[Jay 37,372]

BTW KK I agree with most of your points. A lot of us are really pointing out how much of a mess the final cut of DOS is.

I am still confident the original 2 film plan wouldn't have been as messy, and certainly not bloated at all.

A lot of the truly bad aspects of DOS seem to come from the padding out to 3 films, such as the changing of prosthetic Azog and Bolg to CGI Azog and Bolg, the swapping of them for no reason, the addition of the Kili/Tauriel romance, and the Dwarfs ridiculous plan to cover Smaug in gold.

The best bonus feature of all time would be if a future boxset of the TH trilogy contains the original rough cuts of the 2 film structure....

[MedigoScan 324]

They'd need to do some funky editing to put the Thorin accepting Bilbo scene back where it was in the 2movie cut

I suppose the Smaug scenes would be easier, as he does say he already plans to go to Laketown before the gold statue is revealed

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The best bonus feature of all time would be if a future boxset of the TH trilogy contains the original rough cuts of the 2 film structure....

There never was a rough cut assembled I'm sure. The 2 film version only excist in story board or pre-vis form.

So far neither DoS nor AUJ has convinced anyone the 3 film structure is justified. And whats worse, so far both films are left with disturbing pacing issues because of the late decision to add an extra film

As for the third film, story wise, there really isn't that much left, if you go by the book and the appendices from LOTR. I mean they will pad that stuff out and invent some new things, but still.

One would almost think that Peter Jackson has lost his touch.

They'd need to do some funky editing to put the Thorin accepting Bilbo scene back where it was in the 2movie cut

Actually, you can edit that scene out. In DoS Thorin and the rest of the Dwarrow go back to pretty much ignoring Bilbo for large stretches throughout the film.

[Jay 37,372]

The best bonus feature of all time would be if a future boxset of the TH trilogy contains the original rough cuts of the 2 film structure....

There never was a rough cut assembled I'm sure. The 2 film version only excist in story board or pre-vis form.

WRONG! They were still planning on doing 2 films halfway through the post production process - many of Shore's cues were written before pickups were added and the flim was stretched. By the time finished special effects shots were coming it it was to the new expanded cut of Film 1, but they lived with it as a 2 film saga for a very long time into post production.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Into post production of AUJ, not DoS and TABA!

[MedigoScan 324]

Actually, you can edit that scene out. In DoS Thorin and the rest of the Dwarrow go back to pretty much ignoring Bilbo for large stretches throughout the film.

I thought the point of this new 2movie thing was to make it better, not worse

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Even if a 2 film version did exist. releasing it would pretty much be admitting that they made it 3 films so they could made an extra 500 to 900 million dollars from it

Actually, you can edit that scene out. In DoS Thorin and the rest of the Dwarrow go back to pretty much ignoring Bilbo for large stretches throughout the film.

I thought the point of this new 2movie thing was to make it better, not worse

Thorin's bromance with Bilbo isn't a very good scene.

In AUJ it kinda just happens, and it's not followed through at all in DoS.

[Barnald 365]

It's not great consistency, but then Thorin wasn't going to get closely attached to Bilbo all of a sudden because of that one moment of softness (he had nearly died after all). Thorin being all friendly would be more jarring in many ways - it's just his demeanour, he's not especially pally with any of the Dwarves bar his nephews and Balin and Dwalin. I suppose the scene with Kili and Fili at Laketown is important in this regard. If he's willing to sacrifice one of his nephews in his desperation, then he's hardly going to give a shit about a Hobbit when he's so close to the prize and it's all he can think about.

Maybe the extended edition will give us something at Beorn's or in Mirkwood which might show some more development in the relationship between Bilbo and Thorin. Because once they reach Laketown, Thorin's coldness is certainly more understandable.

[Jay 37,372]

Into post production of AUJ, not DoS and TABA!

Obviously.

It's not great consistency, but then Thorin wasn't going to get closely attached to Bilbo all of a sudden because of that one moment of softness (he had nearly died after all). Thorin being all friendly would be more jarring in many ways - it's just his demeanour, he's not especially pally with any of the Dwarves bar his nephews and Balin and Dwalin. I suppose the scene with Kili and Fili at Laketown is important in this regard. If he's willing to sacrifice one of his nephews in his desperation, then he's hardly going to give a shit about a Hobbit when he's so close to the prize and it's all he can think about.

Maybe the extended edition will give us something at Beorn's or in Mirkwood which might show some more development in the relationship between Bilbo and Thorin. Because once they reach Laketown, Thorin's coldness is certainly more understandable.

Well as originally shot and filmed, Thorin and Bilbo had their "bromance" scene after the forest river chase. Film 1, whether out of 2 films or 3, was always going to end the same way - with Thorin accepting Bilbo into the group, and them looking longingly at Erebor from a distance, as Smaug stirs. The 2->3 film split caused them to have to drop the original acceptance ending they had shot, and re-film it all again on a different set, to have it now be shown on the Eagle's carroc to end film 1. They of course also filmed the entire sequence where Bilbo saves Thorin in pickups - as originally written and shot, after Thorin gets knocked down the eagles show up right away.

The problem with this is that all the material from the eagle's carroc through to the end of the river chase (so every scene in the Wilderland, Beorn's, Mirkwood, and the Woodland Realm) was originally shot with Thorin still being grumpy at Bilbo, which means they either had to cut around that stuff or just leave it in, despite the acceptance being moved up. Once of the many ways in which DOS is a bit of a mess.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As it is now Thorin barely acknowledges Bilbo up until the moment he opens the secret door.

I'm sure someone will do a fan edit once the 3 movies have been released on Blu.

[Jay 37,372]

Yea I am sure there will be a ton of fan edits - some making "book cuts" that only cover what happened in The Hobbit and not the made up stuff, others making "2 film" cuts, trying to revert to the way it was originally structured.... the problem with these ideas is that so much footage was removed and replaced with the pickup shots they probably won't really come out that good. I wish PJ would release deleted scenes for LOTR and TH already....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Btw, I can't recall. But was any reason given for Radagast showing up at the High Fells at all?

[Incanus 5,715]

Unfortunately sequences like Out of the Frying-pan and Into the Fire have Azog ruining strict faihtfulness to the novel's storyline. You could edit almost everything else nicely around those additions but alas his presence ruins some passages along the way.

Btw, I can't recall. But was any reason given for Radagast showing up at the High Fells at all?

No but he implies Gandalf had called him there as he notes it is not a nice place to meet.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Call him? How? Wizard telepathy? Did Gandalf send a moth?

It was already a massive coincidece that Rady "bumped" into the Company in AUJ.

[mstrox 6,651]

From the dialogue, it did sound like Gandalf sent a missive to Radagast to meet with him. It seems like Gandalf has long-distance telepathic communication with Galadriel, based on the scene at the entrance to Mirkwood - maybe he used her as an intermediary. She seems involved anyway, since he sent Radagast off to inform Galadriel and to not return.

[KK 3,307]

Call him? How? Wizard telepathy? Did Gandalf send a moth?

It was already a massive coincidece that Rady "bumped" into the Company in AUJ.

I think Gandalf passed the message to the birds in his hair nest.

[Jay 37,372]

Btw, I can't recall. But was any reason given for Radagast showing up at the High Fells at all?

The entire High Fells sequence in DOS makes no sense anyway.

As originally intended, Gandalf would have gone there right from Rivendell, presumably on a horse he got from Elrond or something, and then go from there to to Misty Mountains to save the company from the goblins. This somewhat makes sense because Rhudaur is west of the Misty Mountains (It's north of the Shire). Now that they moved the High Fells sequence to DOS, he now take Beorn's horse from Mirkwood, ALLLLLL the way back through the Mistory Mountains into Rhudaur, explores the tombs, then heads back over the Misty Mountains AGAIN (Still on Beorn's horse?) and THEN heads to the southern point of Mirkwood where Dol Guldur is - all in the time it takes the company to get through Mirkwood and freed from the Woodland Realm (which looks to take about 2 days in the film). It's all just ludicrous!!!

[Incanus 5,715]

Btw, I can't recall. But was any reason given for Radagast showing up at the High Fells at all?

The entire High Fells sequence in DOS makes no sense anyway.

As originally intended, Gandalf would have gone there right from Rivendell, presumably on a horse he got from Elrond or something, and then go from there to to Misty Mountains to save the company from the goblins. This somewhat makes sense because Rhudaur is west of the Misty Mountains (It's north of the Shire). Now that they moved the High Fells sequence to DOS, he now take Beorn's horse from Mirkwood, ALLLLLL the way back through the Mistory Mountains, explores it, then heads back over the Misty Mountains AGAIN (Still on Beorn's horse?) and THEN heads to the southern point of Mirkwood where Dol Guldur is - all in the time it takes the company to get through Mirkwood and freed from the Woodland Realm (which looks to take about 2 days in the film). It's all just ludicrous!!!

Ridiculous indeed! High Fells are in Rhudaur and north of Rivendell, long way in the north-east from the Shire. It would really make sense to travel there from Rivendell as it was first planned.

[mstrox 6,651]

Maybe Gandalf hitched a ride on a convenient eagle, or a sleigh pulled by super fast chipmunks. Where is your creativity?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Jason has severe OCD

[KK 3,307]

BTW KK I agree with most of your points. A lot of us are really pointing out how much of a mess the final cut of DOS is.

I am still confident the original 2 film plan wouldn't have been as messy, and certainly not bloated at all.

A lot of the truly bad aspects of DOS seem to come from the padding out to 3 films, such as the changing of prosthetic Azog and Bolg to CGI Azog and Bolg, the swapping of them for no reason, the addition of the Kili/Tauriel romance, and the Dwarfs ridiculous plan to cover Smaug in gold.

The best bonus feature of all time would be if a future boxset of the TH trilogy contains the original rough cuts of the 2 film structure....

After AUJ, I had my doubts about the 2 film structure. I mean look at the first hour of DoS, where things go way too fast without a chance for development. Imagine the screen-time Beorn would have had in 2 films.

But the bloat that was needed to pad these films to round them up as 3 individual films was ridiculous and gave me a change of heart.

I still think DoS would have worked as a climax without the "Dwarf vs. Smaug" conflict had they used that time to flesh out Mirkwood and Beorn out more.

I have to say I thought Azog looked really, really good in this, a lot better than AUJ.

There were several sequences in the film that would disagree with this.

Bolg looked great though.

[Jay 37,372]

Cut everything that happens in AUJ down to 2 hours, and you have 1 entire hour left to get the company from the eagle's carroc to Beorn's house to Mirkwood and into The Woodland Realm. Plenty of time!

~

John Takis has a good idea for the 2 film plan: Instead of including the forest river chase as the climax of Film 1, have the film end with the dwarfs in Woodland Realm prison, and Bilbo wandering around with no idea how to free them. Have Film 2 pick up a month later when he finally has the elve's patterns figured out so he can free them and get them into the barrels (it was after all months in the book that the company spent in the Woodland Realm)

[Barnald 365]

BTW KK I agree with most of your points. A lot of us are really pointing out how much of a mess the final cut of DOS is.

I am still confident the original 2 film plan wouldn't have been as messy, and certainly not bloated at all.

A lot of the truly bad aspects of DOS seem to come from the padding out to 3 films, such as the changing of prosthetic Azog and Bolg to CGI Azog and Bolg, the swapping of them for no reason, the addition of the Kili/Tauriel romance, and the Dwarfs ridiculous plan to cover Smaug in gold.

The best bonus feature of all time would be if a future boxset of the TH trilogy contains the original rough cuts of the 2 film structure....

After AUJ, I had my doubts about the 2 film structure. I mean look at the first hour of DoS, where things go way too fast without a chance for development. Imagine the screen-time Beorn would have had in 2 films.

But the bloat that was needed to pad these films to round them up as 3 individual films was ridiculous and gave me a change of heart.

I still think DoS would have worked as a climax without the "Dwarf vs. Smaug" conflict had they used that time to flesh out Mirkwood and Beorn out more.

I have to say I thought Azog looked really, really good in this, a lot better than AUJ.

There were several sequences in the film that would disagree with this.

Bolg looked great though.

See I thought Azog looked a lot better than Bolg. He looks especially good when he jumps out to fight Gandalf.

[KK 3,307]

I’m guessing only a few of you will even try (I’m counting on you BB and Inky!).

Well, you shouldn't have!

Can't say I agree with most of your post, KK. A lot of things you liked, I didn't.

Some random thoughts on your random thoughts:

- The prologue was a very odd. The dialogue feels off and the whole thing doesn't work as an opening at all. Easily the worst of the Middle-Earth prologues so far. Can't agree with you there.

- The spiders scene didn't work for me because there was nothing building to it. It just happens two minutes after they entered into the forest, it all happens too fast. And I said previously said, Bilbo rescuing the Dwarves, which should be a major moment for the character, is just a non-event. Of course, at that point in the films, Bilbo already killed an Orc and a Warg, so there is that.

- Firstly, it's "Dol Guldur". Secondly, yes, all of the Dol Guldur subplot is pretty dull so far. I think it would have worked better if it had been spread over two and not three films. You would have had Gandalf captured at the end of Film 1, which means you would have had a sense of a lot of things happening. As it is, it seems basically nothing happens in that subplot in Film 1 then in Film 2. It just feels stretched. Oh, and the whole "Azog reporting to the Necromancer" scene felt like something out of a Power Rangers episode...

- Can't believe you liked Kili and Tauriel's conversation. Sounded overly cheesy to me. And yes, they should have spent way more time in the Woodland Realm, in order for us to understand how Bilbo found out about the barrels.

- The barrels sequence was OK overall, but yeah, as you said, teh GoPro camera moments really look amateurish (you can clearly see the image quality difference in those shots). And the lack of music in some spots clearly hurt the flow of the sequence.

- Agreed about Laketown. Easily the best part of the film (perhaps because it is the part with the least green screen effects and most of it are real sets), minus Alfrid. A true nuisance.

- Agreed about the whole "climax" at Laketown. I just didn't care during that whole sequence.

- Disagree about the Dwarves vs Smaug sequence. At no point did I feel it was fun. I was bored during the whole sequence.

Overall, I think the film's problems comes down to three major things:

- The lack of music in some action scenes. Restore it, it would make these scenes flow better, give them a better pace (especially the spiders and barrels sequences). I'm sure Legolas' entrance would have been WAY better with the Woodland Realm theme action variation.

- The editing. Remove the whole attack on Laketown thing, and basically everything involving Tauriel. Used the gained screentime to flesh out Mirkwood and Beorn more, thus making the beginning of the film stronger.

- The ending. Remove that whole confrontation between the Dwarves and Smaug and replace it with Smaug's attack on Laketown at the end of this film. Everything was building to it. Bard preparing himself to use the ballista, then being emprisoned, Bain hiding the black arrow, Bilbo seeing Smaug's weak spot, Kili and co being stuck at Laketown... I fear having that sequence at the beginning of Film 3 will make it loose some of its power, because there won't be any real build-up to it (which is basically the same problem the action scenes in DOS had).

Fix those three problems, and I would dare say this film would be FAR more enjoyable.

On a side note, why does Smaug’s theme play in this cue (2:18 in the cue)? I thought there’d be mention of him in the scene or something, but there isn’t.

That's Mirkwood theme (it's very similar to Smaug's theme, so that's why you mixed them up).

- I agree about the spiders scene happening too fast. It was an awkward shift from one scene to another. I just thought the spiders themselves were great.

- Wow, can't believe I've been spelling it wrong all this time. Yes, Dol Guldur basically sucks so far. But at least we know now that we'll get some kickass scenes with Galadriel and Saruman in the next film.

- The first conversation between Tauriel and Kili was a bit refreshing after the non-stop action. The Tauriel/Kili scenes after that seemed pretty forced.

- The Dwarves vs. Smaug sequence started off as "turn-off-your-brain" kind of fun...or maybe its just because I didn't mind it at that point and was willing to forget it. Then it got ridiculous. The molten gold visual effects also suffered from the last minute addition.

Overall, I think the film's problems comes down to three major things:

- The lack of music in some action scenes. Restore it, it would make these scenes flow better, give them a better pace (especially the spiders and barrels sequences). I'm sure Legolas' entrance would have been WAY better with the Woodland Realm theme action variation.

- The editing. Remove the whole attack on Laketown thing, and basically everything involving Tauriel. Used the gained screentime to flesh out Mirkwood and Beorn more, thus making the beginning of the film stronger.

- The ending. Remove that whole confrontation between the Dwarves and Smaug and replace it with Smaug's attack on Laketown at the end of this film. Everything was building to it. Bard preparing himself to use the ballista, then being emprisoned, Bain hiding the black arrow, Bilbo seeing Smaug's weak spot, Kili and co being stuck at Laketown... I fear having that sequence at the beginning of Film 3 will make it loose some of its power, because there won't be any real build-up to it (which is basically the same problem the action scenes in DOS had).

Fix those three problems, and I would dare say this film would be FAR more enjoyable.

Agree with everything said here.

Cut everything that happens in AUJ down to 2 hours, and you have 1 entire hour left to get the company from the eagle's carroc to Beorn's house to Mirkwood and into The Woodland Realm. Plenty of time!

~

John Takis has a good idea for the 2 film plan: Instead of including the forest river chase as the climax of Film 1, have the film end with the dwarfs in Woodland Realm prison, and Bilbo wandering around with no idea how to free them. Have Film 2 pick up a month later when he finally has the elve's patterns figured out so he can free them and get them into the barrels (it was after all months in the book that the company spent in the Woodland Realm)

How do you end a film on that note though? And knowing Peter Jackson, he doesn't like to delay his storylines by months, everything needs to happen almost instanteaneously, one after the other.

But I agree, The Hobbit could have worked nicely as two 3-hour films.

[Jay 37,372]

Yes, with two extended editions of 3:45 each or so.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,372]

We agree on all points!

(Except you can't throw Beyond the Forest in there, as the Tauriel/Kili romance was only invented for the pickups)

[KK 3,307]

I thought Tauriel and Kili was always there, it was only the love triangle (with Leggy involved) that was invented for the pickups.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,372]

Fight orcs!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Arwen was supposed to fight Orcs at Helms Deep, but PJ chickened out!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Finally!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This was always gonna happen. Just wait till he does The Silmarillion

[Bilbo 3,709]

This was always gonna happen. Just wait till he does The Silmarillion

Luthien already gets to kick butt in that!

[KK 3,307]

Just wait till he does The Silmarillion

Where Luthin will singlehandedly slaughter an army of balrogs with kickass stunts, severe Morgoth's head, and reclaim all 3 silmarils to save the day!

This was always gonna happen. Just wait till he does The Silmarillion

Luthien already gets to kick butt in that!

Doh!

[Incanus 5,715]

It will be Nienor Niniel this, Galadriel that, Elwing decapitating orcs, Morwen kicking Brodda's butt, Nerdanel being all Nerdanel, Luthien, Melian the list goes on and on. There are countless women in there!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hot!

[Incanus 5,715]

Oh yeah baby! Beautiful lithe elven women!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Dwarrow will fight over them!

[KK 3,307]

I'm sure we'll see the backstory to Tauriel too. Where Tauriel's mother fell in love with a dwarf long ago, just so they could draw parallels to the Hobbit trilogy, and the Evenstar theme will be used to help draw parallels to LotR. It'll be brilliant!

[Incanus 5,715]

I'm sure we'll see the backstory to Tauriel too. Where Tauriel's mother fell in love with a dwarf long ago, just so they could draw parallels to the Hobbit trilogy, and the Evenstar theme will be used to help draw parallels to LotR. It'll be brilliant!

What about the parallel with the prince of Dol Amroth who possibly wedded an elven maid and thus Imrahil had elven blood in his veins. Brilliant PJ!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But she is just a woodelf.