The Desolation of Smaug SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[Quintus 5,399]

Some stray thoughts he said

[SF1_freeze 131]

Don't you think it was completely stupid that when the Orks attacked Laketown all the Laketown people and guards seemed to be in a coma? Maybe they are used to loud battle noises and screams at night and don't bother... such a ruined scene

[Jay 37,467]

No, I totally disagree with you. I thought it was fine. People were awake; the scene started with the orc going into Bard's house and scaring his children.

The men of Lake-town aren't warriors, why do you want to see them getting slaughtered by orcs?

[KK 3,307]

In its power.

More flawed it may be, but I still love RotK and it still stands as my favourite.

[Barnald 365]

I wouldn't be surprised if they deleted some footage of the Orcs killing a few Laketown sentries before slipping in to the town. Also, a number of guards were drunk and partying.

[Hurmm 91]

Hurmm, did you enjoy the LotR movies?

I won't say I loved them, but they were all at the very least really good epics with spectacular scope. FOTR especially is great, and I bet if you visit middle earth from FOTR right after the CGI fest of The Hobbit films it would feel like a breath of fresh air.

Now I must say I've never read any Tolkien book, but I thought the first Hobbit film was some decent fun; it was long, bloated and self indulgent, but was also rousingly fun in parts. I wouldn't want to watch it again due to its length but I do remember it being above average fare on the whole.

The second one is completely pointless to me. Maybe it's simply because I've never read the book, but none of the characters here stand out. The dwarfs have even less characterization than the first film, despite having a lot more talking (I think). Apart from Thorin and one of two others, the rest of them are interchangeable, expendable if they didn't make to make up the numbers. Beorn, one of the new characters, just enters and exits the movie within 5 minutes. Gandalf talks about him a bit, but we nothing happens that allows us to learn about that character from that character himself. The film is littered with half-assed character introductions like this, and in between them are repetitious orcs vs dwarfs/elves fights which, apart from moments from the river chase, are utterly bland.

The best bit is indeed the first confrontation between Bilbo and Smaug, it's a pity nothing after that is as engrossing. The final forty minutes are mostly a hide-and-seek game which grows old after a while, and the climax is actually interspliced with another scene happening elsewhere far away which involves some other dwarf trying to get some medicine for another injured dwarf which just robs the actual climax of momentum and suspense.

Maybe it's because I've never read the book, really. But its seldom that I feel this bored while in a theater.

[Marian Schedenig 8,239]

Just saw it. After the first hour or so (when they did an intermission), I was VERY happy. At the end of the film, I was considerably more frustrated than in the middle, but I still enjoyed it overall. I've only seen AUJ once and loved about 30% of it and hated another 40% or so. With DOS, the frustrating bits couldn't hurt my enjoyment as much, perhaps because they were mostly limited to storylines that don't even show up in the original.

Some thoughts:

- Absolutely loved the HFR. I liked it in AUJ, but it was even better here and does exactly what I'd been expecting since it was first announced. Once again I was the only one in my group to think that though.

- After the Mirkwood sequence, I didn't mind Legolas and Tauriel. Legolas doesn't have to be in the film, but at the same time there's no reason for him not to be there, and there's no reason not to have another non-anonymous Elf character. The beginnings of the Kili/Tauriel relationship were too sappy (not the opening innuendo, that was fine) but ignorable. But when it got dragged out and the plot structure and overall logic suffered from changes made just to keep the love story going got increasingly frustrating. By the time they meet in Esgaroth, the whole thing had turned ridiculously cheesy and entirely pointless.

- I'm getting tired of the ever increasing battle feats of the Elves. They were great in LOTR, but it seems they're trying to top them with every new film, to the point where Legolas and Tauriel now appear to be invincible Orc army destroyers. The choreography looks fake, and Legolas is reduced to performing variations of his most stupid moves from the LOTR films.

- Esgaroth's people seem to fall into a coma at night. Yes, it bothered me a lot that an entire Orc army could assualt the city and have a loud battle with two (!) Elves with not a single human (other than the bunch of cute Laketown children) noticing anything. It's things like this that make it hard to forgive the love story. Not only is it badly executed, it's also forced into the plot at the expense of internal logic.

- The dwarves taking on Smaug doesn't really work. It's mostly enjoyable enough, and I understand the reasoning behind it, but it tends to make Smaug look incompetent and suffers from too much Indiana Jones type stunt work that doesn't fit into Middle-earth (at least not the Middle-earth established by the LOTR films, and while I fully support the Hobbit films having a lighter tone, the world should remain consistent). The Alien³ plot also doesn't convince.

- Other than that, Smaug is utterly fantastic. Especially his initial confrontation with Bilbo, which is easily among the strongest scenes from all 5 films so far. The design, CGI and Cumberbatch's voice acting are all brilliant.

- Freeman is great as usual. I thought he had a brief Holm moment in the first film, and he actually has at least two not so brief ones here, intentional or not. But he's just as great when he plays his own Bilbo.

- I thought the Necromancer was handled reasonably well, if you accept that he is shown at all. The force field battle between Gandalf and him is reminiscent of Gandalf's shield spell against the Balrog in FOTR which I sorely missed in the film.

- The many score interruptions did bother me, as there were a lot of scenes that were suddenly and noticeably without music - too many to have a supporting effect, if that was the intention. And I'm only listening to the score for the first time now, so it's not due to familiarity with the music.

- The spiders were amazing. I was always a little disappointed in Shelob, who was handled well but not scary to me. But the 3D Mirkwood spiders fully activated my arachnophobia, and not just mine, judging from the audience reactions around me. It's sad though that Bilbo's pivotal role in rescuing the dwarves from the spiders was pretty much eliminated from the film, but then again it wouldn't have had its intended (from the book) effect anyway after the premature bromance ending in the first film.

- The film ended exactly where I expected it to.

- I liked the Bree opening. Aside from a few modifications (and for once, they actually worked in tying some of the other modifications into the overall logic), it was pretty much straight out of the appendixes. And PJ's cameo is his best so far, beating the one from The Frighteners.

[Matt C 456]

The cliffhanger ending definitely ticked some people off, it's far more abrupt than The Two Towers or Deathly Hallows: Part 1. The film is a good example of how "The Hobbit" should've never been made as three films... two films should've been the limit. There's no beginning or end to the film, and the padding exacerbates the problems.

MaryAnn Johansen's review of the film pretty much sums up my feelings for the film. There's a terrific 90 minute movie in Desolation of Smaug, as most of the Smaug scenes are terrific and well realized by the folks at Weta Digital and Benedict Cumberbatch. But there's too much dwarves, and not enough Bilbo or Smaug. The Legolas/Tauriel/Kili love triangle was okay, but not really necessary.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

I maintain that a large part of the problem is the source material. The Hobbit, however good it is as a children's book is not as good as The Lord Of The Rings.

But PJ/Phillipa/Fran etc trying to give it the same weight and length doesn't really help that.

Eh...I completely disagree. I believe The Hobbit's (book) high quality of storytelling is unmatched by its successors.

The Lord of the Rings is a darker, bigger, better...world, but the storytelling suffers for it. You can read Tolkien struggle with the beast he hath created in the Lord of the Rings. The movies actually were very successful in fixing a lot of the narrative problems of the books, which is what made them such damn fine adaptations.

The ultimate problem with The Hobbit films is that they are trying to make it like Lord of the Rings, and ruining the narrative in the process. If it had been one 2.5 hour film, it would be magnificent, as good as any of the Lord of the Rings films.

[crocodile 8,038]

OK then - few things real fast:

The film is in a way more entertaining than the first. It's nice to see some new places, characters and something that adds to this cinematic world. But, having said all that, it's really poorly put together film. No momentum, no coherence, no build-up. By the time we reach the confrontation with the dragon (which goes nowhere really) I was already completely disinterested. All the minor characters and places are fun to watch, but they seem like they don't belong there and that this is a very different Middle Earth to that we used to see (source material is a problem here). For all the expansions they are not that significant that they really add to the story. Bilbo's part I can relate to, as well as Dwarves. But the rest seems really unnecessary. So, overall, a lot of nice moments cinematically going nowhere and, for whatever, feeling like they're randomly stitched together.

Oh and I like the dragon. Don't see how Bennedict Cabbagepatch contributed to it - seems like a generic dragon voice to me.

The music. It was really good. I couldn't hear anything important missing, not a lot anyway. I think the forest river chase was genuinely spotted this way with music starting and stopping. Even when you listen to the album, it feels like short pieces put together. And, I think, all the material from the track is in the film. Plus some more bits not on the album (especially at the beginning). Same goes for the spiders sequence. every notable moment I can remember is in the film (maybe except for the Woodland theme when the Elves rescue Dwarves in Mirkwood). The music was relatively well mixed and I could hear it actually contributing something to the film. The love theme/Tauriel material felt somewhat strange - , maybe it is because it is the only outright romantic music in the series. I like that the film is not over-spotted in music so that both Howard Shore and the sound guys get their moments and you don't that much competition between the two. If there is problem, it is with the weird spotting or, should I say, rather the whole pacing. Howard Shore did a fine job and, for the first time ever, the album and film feel like they present you the one thing. The album simply feels like the same material, but slightly edited together (with some snippets added) for the listening pleasure. That aspect of the film I'm really happy about - the music almost made me care about the film (and in some places it actually did). Although, my companions didn't feel the same way. In their opinion the score felt too.... different.

The song is completely wrong, though. I liked how the last cue ends and there is silence after that. Different and well done.

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Right, I just got out of the theater. I thoroughly enjoyed the film. Stand by for further thoughts if you care.

[Matt C 456]

It was weird seeing "Music Composed by Howard Shore" for this film, not the usual "Music Composed, Orchestrated and Conducted by Howard Shore." But it didn't affect the quality of the music overall, and I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

So I've just seen the second film in PJ's adaptation of and embellishment on Tolkien's novel. I thought it was great. Essentially every issue I had with AUJ stayed in 2012. But since it's so fashionable to point out what we didn't like, here are my two actual complaints and one irrelevant complaint. You can safely assume that anything not mentioned was enjoyed.

One: Yes, the Legolas/Bolg duel was quite pointless and does stop things in their tracks. Oh well. Clearly there's something being set up there though.

Two: The Erebor battle was ok initially, but did drag on somewhat towards the end. Could have been more or less trimmed.

Irrelevant: It irks me that there will likely be no satisfying payback for Gandalf against the Necromancer unless the rumors about him being mostly incapacitated during the battle in TABA are false.

Oh, and Tauriel was great. Her first conversation with Kili was delightful. The light thing during the healing was a little meh. But whatever.

And right, the song! On its own, again, it's inoffensive. I don't remember how I predicted I'd feel about it in context, but it was craptacular. If I claimed it would work for me, then I was wrong.

[Jay 37,467]

I agree that the crosscutting of all the different climaxes didn't work at all. They should have stayed longer in each place before cutting. Shore did his best to smooth out the transitions with music, but then it seems they changed the order if scenes after he scored then anyway.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

And now I'll ramble about just a few of the things that I enjoyed, which again, was everything apart from those minor complaints.

From the start, it felt more like a proper Jackson Middle-Earth caper and that feeling did not depart once.

Beorn was well done, if underused. That applies to quite a few elements and characters, actually. Including Thranduil. And the Master.

Tauriel... ah. No words. Give me all of the grief. I love her. Do you think she could love me?

Bilbo was far more properly relevant this time around. And he had so many moments to shine.

Erebor was wonderfully designed and vast. Made me realize how limited my imagined version of it was.

Smaug. Wow. The glowing reports all fell short of his enormity and magnificence. I think that was the best CGI that I've ever seen. All of it was perfect. I wanted more Inside Information!

And the score! There were jarring edits and omissions, likely only an issue if you were painfully familiar with the score beforehand. Beyond that... so much more satisfying than last year.

[Hurmm 91]

But, having said all that, it's really poorly put together film. No momentum, no coherence, no build-up. By the time we reach the confrontation with the dragon (which goes nowhere really) I was already completely disinterested. All the minor characters and places are fun to watch, but they seem like they don't belong there and that this is a very different Middle Earth to that we used to see (source material is a problem here). For all the expansions they are not that significant that they really add to the story. Bilbo's part I can relate to, as well as Dwarves. But the rest seems really unnecessary. So, overall, a lot of nice moments cinematically going nowhere and, for whatever, feeling like they're randomly stitched together.

Oh and I like the dragon. Don't see how Bennedict Cabbagepatch contributed to it - seems like a generic dragon voice to me.

Karol

Completely agreed except I didn't find it entertaining on the whole. In parts maybe, but the whole thing at almost 3 hours is a painful chore.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No one commented yet on the talking spiders. I thought that was well handled. Love the small reference to the song when Bilbo hears the word "attercop".

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Didn't notice that! I'll listen for it next time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its before the spiders show up. When they are hallucinating.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

That was great. Shame the densely atonal orchestra/whispering chorus were dialed out, but wonderfully realized scene nonetheless.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lots of harmless cartoon violence, but a few moments that reveal PJ's origins as a schlock horror film maker. (The twitching corpse after Tranduil beheaded the Orc)

Once again more beheadings then LOTR

[Incanus 5,723]

Lots of harmless cartoon violence, but a few moments that reveal PJ's origins as a schlock horror film maker. (The twitching corpse after Tranduil beheaded the Orc)

Once again more beheadings then LOTR

Elves love beheading people.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Still disappointed that Gimli never beheads any Orc in LOTR

[mrbellamy 6,334]

In general, that is a problem that I have with these Hobbit movies versus LOTR. Lots of beheadings and killings yet it all means so much less. There's so little time spent on showing the actual pain and suffering that the violence causes these people, especially compared to LOTR where the action felt at least a little more...responsible? PJ went over-the-top plenty in those films, as well, but it's disconcerting to not have those moments of reflection.

[Incanus 5,723]

In general, that is a problem that I have with these Hobbit movies versus LOTR. Lots of beheadings and killings yet it all means so much less. There's so little time spent on showing the actual pain and suffering that the violence causes these people, especially compared to LOTR where the action felt at least a little more...responsible? PJ went over-the-top plenty in those films, as well, but it's disconcerting to not have those moments of reflection.

Bilbo is the only one even to acknowledge the violence in the film (in a brilliant moment in the spider sequence).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I love that moment

[Incanus 5,723]

I saw the film last night in 3D HFR and I honestly have to say I enjoyed it quite a bit but did not unreservedly love it. Marian in his above review and thoughts actually sums a lot of my views on the film (although I did not like HFR and HD which again made the film feel in places like a TV-movie shot in cheap sets again). A more extensive review to follow later.

Oh and as many have said here we got a good deal with the SE of the soundtrack, which does contain more music than the film and the score in the movie has only a couple of short passages missing from it. Unfortunately some of the later sequences in Erebor suffer from not having music giving them that extra bit of dramatic drive they needed and they feel a bit lifeless without it I felt.

[Barnald 365]

PJ has confirmed there will be a couple more Beorn scenes in the EE. So we've got that, Thrain, and, if I understand Boyens correctly, Bombur falling into the river to look forward to.

[gkgyver 1,646]

No one commented yet on the talking spiders. I thought that was well handled. Love the small reference to the song when Bilbo hears the word "attercop".

At first I thought it was a pretty clever way of making talking spiders less ludicrous, to show Bilbo can hear them only when he wears the Ring, and that it would set up the talking dragon. But then the dragon talked anyway, to Bilbo and the dwarves, so I'm not sure what the point was.

PJ has confirmed there will be a couple more Beorn scenes in the EE. So we've got that, Thrain, and, if I understand Boyens correctly, Bombur falling into the river to look forward to.

Well, the whispering chorus was not used, so some Mirkwood extensions should happen

[Marian Schedenig 8,239]

Yay! I really missed Bombur's river episode. He might even talk if they put it back in!

The cliffhanger ending definitely ticked some people off, it's far more abrupt than The Two Towers or Deathly Hallows: Part 1. The film is a good example of how "The Hobbit" should've never been made as three films... two films should've been the limit. There's no beginning or end to the film, and the padding exacerbates the problems.

No beginning and no end is not a problem for me. Forcing an inappropriate, out of character and out of plot (not to mention out of logic) end to the first film is a far bigger issue. And I loved the cliffhanger.

But yes, two films would have been right, and I believe a lot of the issues I have with the two films so far stem from the extension to three.

No one commented yet on the talking spiders. I thought that was well handled. Love the small reference to the song when Bilbo hears the word "attercop".

Didn't hear "attercop", but yes, I liked how the spiders don't speak English until Bilbo puts on the ring.

At first I thought it was a pretty clever way of making talking spiders less ludicrous, to show Bilbo can hear them only when he wears the Ring, and that it would set up the talking dragon. But then the dragon talked anyway, to Bilbo and the dwarves, so I'm not sure what the point was.

Talking dragons are less unusual than talking spiders, I think. Also, Bilbo doesn't converse with the spiders, so it's a different thing altogether anyway.

[Incanus 5,723]

Yay! I really missed Bombur's river episode. He might even talk if they put it back in!

Actually I missed the whole "journey" in this film, because the dwarven company traverses the whole road from Anduin Vale to Erebor in seemingly 4 days. There is an awful hurry and the passage of time is not shown in any way. Mirkwood seems like a day's wandering to me as there are no actual events taking place in between the travelling shots. Same goes for the journey to the mountain itself. I think some scenes for character development or interaction would have been good on these treks or nigth camps or rests and stops.

Same goes for Beorn's house where they could have lingered a bit longer even if just to enjoy the last bit of whimsy before the darkness of the rest of the journey. Also I hope they have more extensive scenes of Beorn e.g. hunting down a warg rider and interrogating it etc.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Saw it for the second time last night and I actually enjoyed it even more than my first viewing! I was able to sit back and just enjoy what was on screen this time i wasn't worrying about the music or what was going to happen. Not that I didn't enjoy the first viewing, I just enjoyed this one more.

This time I saw it on an IMAX screen in HFR 3D. My God, what an amazing experience. It blew me away, I couldn't believe people had complaints last year (I didn't see AUJ in HFR). I didn't even know I was going to see this in HFR I got a surprise when the a message on screen announced it was in HFR. I was worried because I'd heard such bad things about it but I loved it. It takes a small bit of getting used to as certain things look a bit fast but I though the 3D looked amazing, especially the fight in Laketown. No blur at all and crystal clear! Smaug looked even better! It really added to the experience.

I think the cliffhanger is great! It's a proper cliffhanger.

[Glóin the Dark 1,229]

After attending two different 48fps screenings yesterday and having profoundly different reactions to each of them, I'm wondering if the mixed responses to the format which people have been reporting this year and last are purely down to the nature of HFR or whether they are partly caused by differences among theatres' equipment and/or their settings.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its possible

[Barnald 365]

This is why I just stick with plain old 2D

[Bilbo 3,709]

This is why I just stick with plain old 2D

Sunday night will be 3D again for me but I intend to get to a 2D showing at some point as well.

[mstrox 6,659]

I thought the movie was quite good - much better than AUJ. I think it was a little overlong, and I wouldn't have minded if Jackson had cut the final dwarf battle in half. All the gags in the barrel chase are one thing (and that sequence, upon first viewing, was my favorite part of the movie), but having the dwarves all battle Smaug, and survive despite many assaults by the dragon, sort of neuters the sense of menace that was built up in the first 1 2/3 movies.

I had no complaints about Legolas or Tauriel, nor any of the other major changes or additions to the book. I thought they added to the movie significantly. The effects were all well handled, better than AUJ, and much much better than my reaction to some of the stuff in the trailers (barrel chase shots, etc).

I had no complaints about the use of music, either - I've only listened to the score 1.5x so far, so I haven't become married to the album sequences. None of the silences seemed...undue. I also liked (sorry) the song, and the silence that led into it. Worked for me.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I also liked the song (sorry)

Yeah, you better be!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Authority is not given to you to deny the opinion of Troxell

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

DoS like AUJ uses the term "human" to refer to the race of Man. This doesnt happen in either the LOTR film or in Tolkien's writings.

[Jay 37,467]

Interesting.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is it?

[Bilbo 3,709]

Not really.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

DoS like AUJ uses the term "human" to refer to the race of Man. This doesnt happen in either the LOTR film or in Tolkien's writings.

Well, if it looks like a duck...

[crocodile 8,038]

So what music wasn't used in the film then? People keep saying Smaug's material wasn't prominent, but it was. It's all over the final act.

All my favourite bits on the album are in the film.

Karol

[Bilbo 3,709]

So what music wasn't used in the film then? People keep saying Smaug's material wasn't prominent, but it was. It's all over the final act.

All my favourite bits on the album are in the film.

Karol

Last night I noticed so much Smaug stuff and I can't think of any variations that weren't there. Definitely no complaints.

Gandalf's theme in The Quest for Erebor is missing

Some Stuff in Beorn's House

Some Stuff in Mirkwood (such as the chanting stuff)

Thorin's theme in The Forest River.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

The only scene where the music (or lack there of) is jarring (for me anyway) is the Legolas and Bolg fight. I feel it could do with some underscore.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Gandalf's theme in The Quest for Erebor is missing

Some Stuff in Beorn's House

Some Stuff in Mirkwood (such as the chanting stuff)

Thorin's theme in The Forest River.

I'm guessing some of this will turn up in the EE

[Bilbo 3,709]

Gandalf's theme in The Quest for Erebor is missing

Some Stuff in Beorn's House

Some Stuff in Mirkwood (such as the chanting stuff)

Thorin's theme in The Forest River.

I'm guessing some of this will turn up in the EE

Yup! My thoughts too!

[Barnald 365]

The House of Beorn track definitely, sounds like there's some stuff there meant for the apparent flashback to him being tortured at Dol Guldur. Also there was that Lego set.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As it now it, the character seems a bit pointless, the film could have just as well have opened with the company arriving at Mirkwood.