The Unattainability Hypothesis – Does it work in reverse?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I'm working towards my 9th year of actively posting here at JWFan (geez). In that time I've taken some wacky positions in the loud debates we have here. And the most fascinating idea that I've faced in debates, and that I've genuinely believe in is what I term "The Unattainability Hypothesis."

At some point in any debate comparing John Williams with other composers, especially younger composers, in particular those who have developed a strong fusion of electronics with orchestra, or those who might have less or no training in classical music, the following idea pops up:

By virtue of being a classically trained composer, John Williams can write in his voice. But if he so chose, he could write in the style of any other composer. The argument here is that his command of the musical language is so in depth and broad, compared to others, that their work is within the power of John Williams. But not vice versa.

In other words:

1. If you do not have classical training and experience, you cannot write like John Williams.

2. John Williams could write like you, because his musical vocabulary includes your tiny microcosm of musical language.

Statement 1, I can fully support. Statement 2 grows less rock solid with each day. Part of it is my increasing appreciation for the amount of work that goes into the sound design, engineering, and the ultimate art of creating a modern score. Some of these men and women invent entirely new instruments and sounds for their works. They think about the music in radically different ways than John Williams.

And I can't find evidence that demonstrates John Williams has effectively departed from his roots (classical, jazz) with any success in the past.

Can statement 2 be true? Can John Williams effortlessly write something like The Social Network? And I don't mean some classical variant of it. I mean, could he have written the Social Network? Or is that style of music simply out of his range?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It depends on who you're comparing him to. John Williams has a very typical and expected sound but what I love about him is when he does that unexpected score like Images or Rosewood or Munich. It's hard to determine. I don't think he could have done The Social Network, but I'm sure he's capable of some really avant garde stuff.

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

I don't claim any expertise on the matter, but I'd say that that kind of compositional omnipotence is beyond anybody.

[Henry B 50]

He's not as chameleonic a composer as, say, Jerry Goldsmith or Toru Takemitsu. No, he absolutely could not have written The Social Network.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

He's not as chameleonic a composer as, say, Jerry Goldsmith or Toru Takemitsu. No, he absolutely could not have written The Social Network.

Neither could have Jerry Goldsmtih or Toru Takemitsu, if they were still alive in 2010.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Nor should they have.

and the ultimate art of creating a modern score. Some of these men and women invent entirely new instruments and sounds for their works. They think about the music in radically different ways than John Williams.

That's because they think in sound design, and not in music. Which is why the debate is obsolete.

[Faleel 5,348]

Yeah like the guy who invented the violin? cheap hack, only thought about sound design.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Is it any different than Shore having a bass fiddle or whatever built because that's the sound he had in mind?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Yeah like the guy who invented the violin? cheap hack, only thought about sound design.

Producing sounds and producing music are two pairs of shoes.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Yeah like the guy who invented the violin? cheap hack, only thought about sound design.

Producing sounds and producing music are two pairs of shoes.

But where does one draw the line between sound and music? This is an age old debate.

[Incanus 5,715]

Thanks Blume for starting an interesting discussion once again.

By his very own admission John Williams isn't so adept with "modern sound sources" (as he puts it). That doesn't mean that he can't use such resources from time to time to some extent but he prefers to work with an orchestra and not even focus on creating sound design or trying mainly to manipulate familiar sounds of instruments or indeed everyday sounds to achieve music from them. I do not quite adhere to those above two statements either as I have always felt that all people do not necessarily have the same gifts or strengths or indeed interests in music, which is true in most fields.

Even for a film composer it is evident that personal preference, training and experience help him/her choose their instruments. This is to say Williams might have been a synth genius if he had had time and interest in developing skills in them. Goldsmith is an example of a composer of the same generation with different view and philosophies on synths and their usefulness in making his music.

Classic musical training doesn't make you an adept in every style of music, not by a long shot. Times change, ways of making music change and new expressions of the art appear constantly. I would rather ask do you have to as a composer, even as a film composer, be actually the jack of all trades who has absolute mastery over every form of music or interest in all forms of music? Some would shout "Yes!" immediately but if you consider how many composers actually would mainly work with instruments they do not particularly care for I don't think there are none who wouldn't at least try to incorporate some of what they love into their work despite harsh realities and collaborative nature of their craft. Your own aesthetics as a person as an artist direct you to pursue certain kind of path and choosing what different elements you decide to incorporate into your skill set.

This is not in the defense of Williams or any symphony orchestra oriented composer but let me ask you this: Is it any different from asking one of the sound design leaning composers to create a work for 100 piece orchestra that feels like something from the Romantic Era. Could they produce something like Star Wars or The Blue Max with such assured grace as Williams or Goldsmith have done?

[Ludwig 1,120]

It's just that the sound-design style is becoming more pervasive in film scores these days, so while Statement 2 may be losing its ground compared to contemporary scores, Williams' stylistic toolbox is nevertheless wider than just about all other film composers past or present (Goldsmith being a likely equal here). So from the perspective of the entire history of film music, it's probably for the most part true.

After all, that toolbox includes:

Late-Romantic, extended tonal (early 20th century), jazz, pop, modernist, minimalist, experimental, and of course Classical Hollywood. That's one helluva range.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

And there's of course the pseudo-baroque fugues in JAWS, THE EIGER SANCTION, BLACK SUNDAY and other scores around that period.

[Incanus 5,715]

And there's of course the pseudo-baroque fugues in JAWS, THE EIGER SANCTION, BLACK SUNDAY and other scores around that period.

Oh don't forget the Quidditch 3rd Year from 2004! It is kind of a melding of the old and new JW style. Fugue-ish with the swirling string ostinati.

[publicist 4,643]

Why should Williams double for The Chemical Brothers or Trent Reznor? Other than boosting the ego of some probably too-devoted fans of his it would be a total waste because it would try to deny most if not all of what JW's musicianship is about. Hollywood forces artists to leave their voice at the door often enough and when they do, the results sometimes sparkle but most often they do not: listen to Horner's SPIDER-MAN which is drenched in wannabe-hip percussion layers that are so clearly not part of Horner's sound design that i relish every Horner flourish in-between. But he surely spent a lot of time and money in getting the producer's exactly this superfluous sound.

[A24 4,333]

It's just that the sound-design style is becoming more pervasive in film scores these days,

If we look at pop music of today, we see that knowing music and knowing how to play doesn't matter anymore. Where are the great musicians of the '60s and the '70s? Why does pop music sound like it's played by one guy stabbing his elbows on a keyboard that has only about 4 to 5 notes? There is simply no more room for great musicianship in the music of the charts, the few exceptions not included. And the audience, musically illiterate for the most part, is loving it. People today look up to DJs and lifestyles, not great guitarists, drummers or keyboardists. I have a feeling that 'complex' music and great musicianship will become a thing of the past in film music as well. Especially symphonic music and music of the Romantic Period are endangered 'genres'.

Alex

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

Nor should they have.

and the ultimate art of creating a modern score. Some of these men and women invent entirely new instruments and sounds for their works. They think about the music in radically different ways than John Williams.

That's because they think in sound design, and not in music. Which is why the debate is obsolete.

I second.

And to add that, John creates everything in his head and writes it down, without being able to hear it as he wrote it before its recording. The modern day people don't really write in their head, more so fiddle around with electronic toys, sythn sounds and keyboard noodling. To compare the two, its not really possible, because its not at all the same.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Oh please. So much "great, complex music is dead or dying" garbage.

The Romantic period is over Alex. It shouldn't be endangered, it should be over. It belongs in a museum.

You'll all be pleased to find though, as time goes on, that symphonic music, "artful" music, is evergreen. Just look for it. It's not on its death bed as has been proclaimed for decades.

Now if you lot turn out to be prophets and we descend into total artlessness, well, shit. But I suspect you're just the latest of the type who would have walked out of the premiere of the Rite muttering about the death of all you hold dear.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why does pop music sound like it's played by one guy stabbing his elbows on a keyboard that has only about 4 to 5 notes? There is simply no more room for great musicianship in the music of the charts, the few exceptions not included. And the audience, musically illiterate for the most part, is loving it.

Hasnt it always been like that, with the exception of the few standout bands we actually remember? Pop music by it's very definition is transient and fleeting, and so are its artists.

[A24 4,333]

Always been like that?! You know very little about pop music, Steef. There are too many examples of great musicians/bands. I can give hundreds of names of musicians who where loved and respected for their mastery of their instruments.

I wouldn't call it fleeting either. Pop music from the past still gets a lot of airplay on radio and TV. It is still loved by the generation that grew up on it and it's getting discovered by later generations. I would say it's more 'alive' today than the film music of the past.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How many thousands of pop songs get produced in a single year? And how many of those actually get airplay years or decades later? Those that still get airplay, that air remembered are done so for a reason. Like the many many more that fade into obscurity.

There wasnt any less shit pop music in the decades previously then there is today, percentage wise.

[publicist 4,643]

I wouldn't say that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Remember the tons of appalling disco hits from the 70's?

[A24 4,333]

I remember them very well. Many have the status of being classics hits. And Disco was mainly played top studio musicians. You can't have a party without Disco. Daft Punk is trying to recreate some of that ol' disco in their music. BTW, they even got one of them disco guys to write and play for them. Does Nile Rodgers ring any bells?

Alex

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Yes, there was Chic/Nile Rodgers, Georgio Moroder/Donna Summer, Lipps Inc. and other greats, but there was plenty of banal shite too. Boney M., anyone?

[A24 4,333]

I hated Boney M (the Germans never really got it) but they were probably more popular than everything I liked at the time. I even had a friend who was a big fan .... Amazing!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Was Rasputin the lover of the Russian Queen?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Russia's greatest love machine, apparently.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Hey, I'm a sex bomb.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Grrrr....

[nightscape94 965]

2. John Williams could write like you, because his musical vocabulary includes your tiny microcosm of musical language.

Can statement 2 be true? Can John Williams effortlessly write something like The Social Network? And I don't mean some classical variant of it. I mean, could he have written the Social Network? Or is that style of music simply out of his range?

I think that because of Williams knowledge of musical language he certainly has a better chance to write in a variety of different styles. He understands scales, intervallic relationships, etc, on a level that many young film composers just do not. Williams, when you break it down, is just a better composer of music then anyone else in film. I think you're also making the assumption that The Social Network is musically good and that Williams' only obstacle would be to produce that style. It's not necessarily just about style, though, it's about the quality of music in most film scores.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Nice posts, Blume. Yes JW could, if he so wanted, write in any style he chose, but he doesn't. This is for 2 reasons.

1/ JW writes music that he likes. That means that he probably not write in the style of a composer whose music he does not like. Whether JW likes Trent Reznor, is a matter for debate, but I suspect that JW would not want to write in Mr. Reznor's style.

2/ JW (like all composers) is rather handicapped by a) what directors want, and b) what the public expects. These are not mutally incompatible.

Imagine the public's distain, at hearing "In Search Of Unicorns" as the main title for "Episode VII"...

The more famous one gets - the more famous one's music gets - the more expectations are placed on a composer to replicate what has been successful. This makes a lot of people happy, and sells records, but it doesn't necessarily do the composer any favours.

That JW is "allowed" to be as experimental as he is, is a testament to directors taking a chance with him, and going against expectations. I wish more directors would do so.

[RedBard 71]

Oh please. So much "great, complex music is dead or dying" garbage.

The Romantic period is over Alex. It shouldn't be endangered, it should be over. It belongs in a museum.

Would you care to back up that assertion with some evidence, ye unelected representative of the people in terms of current music trends?

Now if you lot turn out to be prophets and we descend into total artlessness, well, shit. But I suspect you're just the latest of the type who would have walked out of the premiere of the Rite muttering about the death of all you hold dear.

The death of what? The music or the choreography? Both were equally offensive at the premiere of Rite, according to research and first-hand accounts.

And in case you weren't aware, some of the audience liked the Rite. Stephen Walsh, professor of music at Cardiff University, cited one press report which suggests that when Stravinsky and Nijinsky took their bow, the ovation fought against the noise of protesters. Personally, I would've been with the ovation.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

What evidence do you need? Musicologically that period is over, and the musical rhetoric has largely faded out of fashion due to a lack of expressive fertility.

If you have found something new to be said there, good for you.

[Hlao-roo 389]

"Expressive Fertility" would be a great name for a band.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I've also considered "Strategically Placed Candles," "Shower Mat," and "Cool Pope and The Cardinals."

[Incanus 5,715]

How about Pope on the Shore?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

This is not in the defense of Williams or any symphony orchestra oriented composer but let me ask you this: Is it any different from asking one of the sound design leaning composers to create a work for 100 piece orchestra that feels like something from the Romantic Era. Could they produce something like Star Wars or The Blue Max with such assured grace as Williams or Goldsmith have done?

Incanus, I think you've logically meandered your way to the foundation of my question.

Assuming that it takes an equal effort for either side to reach the same level in the other's craft, it would mean that the two sides are equal, but different. That would mean something like The Social Network has the same level (but different form) of craftsmanship and skill put into it as The Blue Max.

And that seems counter-intuitive to my Jerry Goldsmith/John Williams fan brain.

[Hlao-roo 389]

As versatile as Williams is, we're all set in our ways to some extent, and I think the self-described "antedilvuian" composer would find the technology needed to execute a score like The Social Network too alienating to take on himself. In a hypothetical collaborative scenario, I could see him contributing musical ideas, but only in a limited role.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

And although he's far too humble to ever say it, to produce a score like THE SOCIAL NETWORK, THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO or HER, he'd have to write beneath himself.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Well, whether it'd be beneath, under, over, beside, outside, inside, opposite, past, without, or despite him, it'd be an interesting creative, techn(olog)ical, and practical challenge to see him take on. Perhaps with the right guidance, he'd beat Reznor and Ross at their own game.

If Williams had to write music that would fill an hour of Hearts of Space, what would it sound like?

[Incanus 5,715]

If Williams had to write music that would fill an hour of Hearts of Space, what would it sound like?

Perhaps like this from 3:23 onward:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9INHPNnEEWo

[Koray Savas 2,251]

So I guess this is more geared towards film music as music and writing skill as opposed to the actual effectiveness of the score? Because I wouldn't say it's beneath John to do something like The Social Network because it's a more effective score than some of his own work.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

If Williams had to write music that would fill an hour of Hearts of Space, what would it sound like?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn-PoSgz4p0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwRfTSki9dY

[Hlao-roo 389]

I was thinking more along the lines of electronic ambient spacemusic, but, yes, you and Incanus picked some good examples.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Can't think of any purely electronic Williamsambeint music. I think those ALWAYS cues are as close as you're going to get.

For a more unsettling vibe, try 2:18:

As a note of interest, that eerie synth texture is actually Randy Kerber sustaining random pitches on a sampled Cristal Baschet (misspelled in the score as 'Bechet') and that same patch features at the beginning of 'Swimming, Droids and Yoda's Farewell' from ROTS.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

There was a thread back in my lurking days asking a question along the lines of "What film would you most like to hear Williams write a replacement score for?" and I remember thinking that, contrary to the many examples of crap RCP scores, the movies I would most like to hear Williams have written are ones that I liked, but with scores utterly out of his wheelhouse. A great example would be "π": a movie I quite enjoyed, with a score that interested me, but not something I could ever picture JW as having written. "The Hurt Locker" would be another fine example. I would love to hear how he would have approached those two films.

[Uni 306]

Very interesting question, Blume.

2/ JW (like all composers) is rather handicapped by a) what directors want, and b) what the public expects. These are not mutally incompatible.

Imagine the public's distain, at hearing "In Search Of Unicorns" as the main title for "Episode VII"...

The more famous one gets - the more famous one's music gets - the more expectations are placed on a composer to replicate what has been successful. This makes a lot of people happy, and sells records, but it doesn't necessarily do the composer any favours.

That JW is "allowed" to be as experimental as he is, is a testament to directors taking a chance with him, and going against expectations. I wish more directors would do so.

To me, this is the crux of it. It isn't a question of whether he could do it or not; it's more a question of whether anyone would ever ask him to. If someone wants a grand orchestral score in the classic style, they'll hire John Williams. If they want a modern, synthetic, art nouveau-type sound, they'll go to someone else. If they want something in between, someone like Zimmer will probably be their choice. Williams hasn't been challenged to write much outside his comfort zone because his comfort zone has always been in high demand. This doesn't imply, however, that he couldn't do it. It just says that he's never had to, and that's just fine with him (and me).

And that's why you don't "find evidence that demonstrates John Williams has effectively departed from his roots (classical, jazz) with any success in the past," Blume. He never had to succeed in such an endeavor.

And although he's far too humble to ever say it, to produce a score like THE SOCIAL NETWORK, THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO or HER, he'd have to write beneath himself.

Hard to deny this. But it would also require that he effect a different style in order for . . . what? To prove something to the doubters? Why would he ever need to do so?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hard to deny this. But it would also require that he effect a different style in order for . . . what? To prove something to the doubters? Why would he ever need to do so?

For the challenge? Why did Michael Jordan retire at the top of his game to go play minor league baseball?

[publicist 4,643]

But Jordan was in his 30's, a time in his life when JW was doing HOW TO STEAL A MILLION. Williams did a relatively bold move in his mid-60's going into a more harmonical/textural challenging route with NIXON/SLEEPERS/ROSEWOOD/LOST WORLD but soon returned to his old self with POTTER.

One of the reasons why it is no good idea to hire an expensive composer like Williams for Fincher movies is just that Williams would spend more time trying to get the real music out of his system before arriving on a halfway acceptable solution that is suitably 'atmospheric'. It's just a bad idea on almost any level.