John Powell's PAN (2015)

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Sorry KK, I am just not getting the soul in those pieces. The Agora track in particular...it tries so hard to literally scream SOUL or some spark of life, but it just falls flat. Listening to Dario's pieces is like looking at a sketch of a loved one, it gets the point across, but it's nothing like seeing the real person in the flesh.

As I listened to those pieces, Mrs. Blume was wondering, "what the fuck does soul even mean?" The best example of it I can think of at the moment is the last 1:50 minutes of the track "Seven Years in Tibet."

It doesn't matter how you feel going into it. It doesn't matter what is going around you when you listen to it. The music in those final two minutes is seemingly alive, like a mad beast that wrestles with your emotions, battering you down to feeling it! Music with that spark of life, with that soul supplants your very emotional state.

It's not some mystical magical or religious property of music. It's just an emergent property of music, when all the ingredients come together just right. You can't point to a single element of the music that makes it happen. It's not any one chord or melody. It's what emerges in-between the interactions of all those things. Like the intelligence that emerges between a colony of independently dumb ants. Some composers can make it happen, others can't.

Alexandre Desplat at one point couldn't. But he's found it. James Newton Howard seemed to have an intuitive knack for it. James Horner as well. Jerry and John just got it from the start. Dario just can't seem to make it happen. Maybe one day that'll change, but for now I don't hear the soul in his music.

When I listen to the samples posted in this thread, I feel like I'm observing emotions like I observe fish in an aquarium.

[KK 3,307]

It's not some mystical magical or religious property of music. It's just an emergent property of music, when all the ingredients come together just right. You can't point to a single element of the music that makes it happen. It's not any one chord or melody. It's what emerges in-between the interactions of all those things. Like the intelligence that emerges between a colony of independently dumb ants. Some composers can make it happen, others can't.

It's interesting you put it that way Blume, and you're spot on, because that's exactly what I feel when I listen to scores like Jane Eyre. Maybe it's because I'm not showing you the right cues, since the ones I posted are more straightforward in their emotional intent.

For instance, this cue gets me every time. I literally feel like I'm drowning when I play it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDnxlJOQ2Ag

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Another one of my favorite examples of music that has that "spark of life":

The whole track teems with something beyond the sum of its parts. You can break it down and analyze it. You can find its individual components in dozens of other works. But only in this track, combined just so, in just that order, with just those performers, in that take, just that recording, do you get that spark.

It's not some mystical magical or religious property of music. It's just an emergent property of music, when all the ingredients come together just right. You can't point to a single element of the music that makes it happen. It's not any one chord or melody. It's what emerges in-between the interactions of all those things. Like the intelligence that emerges between a colony of independently dumb ants. Some composers can make it happen, others can't.

It's interesting you put it that way Blume, and you're spot on, because that's exactly what I feel when I listen to scores like Jane Eyre. Maybe it's because I'm not showing you the right cues, since the ones I posted are more straightforward emotional.

For instance, this cue gets me every time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDnxlJOQ2Ag

OK, I liked that!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Marianelli's music is bereft of soul? My, my, what is JWFan taking today?

Please cleanse your ears with these bits, thank you very much.

I give a pass to the V cue for obvious reasons, and it is nice. The Atonement one is interesting with that quote of Repton. The final one has a notable archaic character. The first though is just that harmonically too familiar stuff that I can't get past.

It's not some mystical magical or religious property of music. It's just an emergent property of music, when all the ingredients come together just right. You can't point to a single element of the music that makes it happen. It's not any one chord or melody. It's what emerges in-between the interactions of all those things. Like the intelligence that emerges between a colony of independently dumb ants. Some composers can make it happen, others can't.

It's interesting you put it that way Blume, and you're spot on, because that's exactly what I feel when I listen to scores like Jane Eyre. Maybe it's because I'm not showing you the right cues, since the ones I posted are more straightforward in their emotional intent.

For instance, this cue gets me every time. I literally feel like I'm drowning when I play it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDnxlJOQ2Ag

This reminds me of two examples of genuine musical anguish that give me that same sort of inescapable visceral reaction, as Blume says, no matter what... it draws you in.

[KK 3,307]

The first one is the more obvious highlight of the score. The real appeal of Jane Eyre lies in the misty atmosphere that permeates the whole score. I suggest you check it out. It's rarely as harmonically obvious as the "Yes!" cue.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Sometimes I wish IPB would auto-shrink YouTube embeds for the purposes of quoting/ease of reading.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Is this one of those times?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Is this one of those times?

No, only on Saturdays.

[KK 3,307]

This cue also does a lot for me, though I'm not sure how you guys would take it. There is a simple yearning quality to it that I just find very moving. That and I always found the breakdown of the main theme (which is rather classical in nature) into this dissipative form to be rather impressive.

[Hlao-roo 389]

"Dario Marianelli" is such a clinical sounding name. Lacks panache.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Perhaps I'm fated to just not "get" him, like Abel.

[KK 3,307]

You can do it Grey! I believe in you!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I appreciate the craft of Dario Marinara's music but it doesn't really do much for me emotionally either.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Perhaps I'm fated to just not "get" him, like Abel.

Abel's fate was quite dire, indeed. Speaking of which, The Ogre is an excellent score from another composer often cited as lacking "soul"—Michael Nyman.

[publicist 4,643]

Again, this would make sense if anyone was talking about divine inspiration! You keep reducing things to the false and absurd then attacking confidently!

Things were absurd from the start, nothing there to reduce.

But that's just a pragmatist's/publicists reaction to something that reeks of semantically perfumed smokescreens to diss stuff. I thank TGP for explaining but honestly still think it's utter bull: 75% emotional reaction, well yes, we can surmise any human being watching any given scene has some kind of emotional reaction; now, by what this is prompted and in what it results is something that can maybe evaluated in a long, sturdy thesis and even then it would be highly doubtful that it would come to explain how, say, Ralph Vaughan-Williams could write SCOTT OF THE ANTARCTIC or Goldsmith THE BLUE MAX. Neither composer was an explorer or aviator and the best shot i could give it is that they just were elusive talents in their respective field that were able to somehow translate their feelings into music better than others (who may have had the exact same feelings).

I speak only by composer interviews and raw logic here (film music is often written under harrowing conditions to earn the composer some money), but i don't think 25% craft and dramatic instinct is gonna cut it. The emotional reaction is a given, nothing that needs to be put into any equation, but how quickly and effectively your mind is going to transcribe it into a 02:34 piece and even a narrative fabric of a 60-minute score written within a few weeks - that's where the magic happens and i don't believe anyone ever could depend on less than musical craft to do it.

[Hlao-roo 389]

The emotional reaction is a given, nothing that needs to be put into any equation, but how quickly and effectively your mind is going to transcribe it into a 02:34 piece and even a narrative fabric of a 60-minute score written within a few weeks - that's where the magic happens

Is it, though? Even for someone with non-flat affect, it's safe to say there's a spectrum of intensity in emotional response to any given stimulus, with the potential for something quite muted. It would seem that in your (rhetorical) model above, you are factoring in the emotional quotient. If it isn't there (or is fairly negligible), what's there to "transcribe"?

[publicist 4,643]

I am no expert in this but even then i guess a person that is genuinly unaffected by something - say, Jerry Goldsmith watching a rough cut of CHAIN REACTION - and knows he/she has to deliver the goods, he or she might reach for something else.

I. e. a feeling of dizziness, a sensation, the most basic things may contribute - but that is a whole different ballpark than this black/white scheme of a composer sitting there being 'moved' or whatever by a scene. You have bright and black days but usually nobody who produces expensive pictures is going to give a shit about that so my theory is that they have to fake it, a lot.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm glad you're a fan. You may remember me from such posts as; 'I'm going to brutally murder you all for slightly disagreeing with me, and 'how dare you say I'm wrong, here is a list of ways you should kill yourself.'

That's Pilgrims regarding Interstellar

[leeallen01 2,136]

I've set up a charity called 'Composers Without Grass.' Please donate what you can to these soulless, lifeless human beings that had to grow up without access to trees.

[crocodile 8,017]

Like John Williams growing up in Brooklyn.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yeah, but everyone knows American concrete is better than European concrete. More inspiring.

[crocodile 8,017]

Clearly, no inspiring views in Italy.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,017]

Desplat is half-French and half-Greek. No views in either of those countries. Europe is ugly and depressing as fuck!

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Not ugly, just full of pretentious people!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,017]

Tell that to Ennio Morricone!

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Hate both of them!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Like John Williams growing up in Brooklyn.

Karol

John Williams grew up with a tree fetish, you fool.

You Europeans certainly are psychologically fragile about this topic! I wonder why? Some remnant deep seated fears of the Germans wanting to level the place and replace it all with new stuff?

Maybe you've been in the cities for too long. Puts the mind at edge. Have you considered a trip to the Alps or the Black Forest? The countryside? It may put your nervous minds at rest! Eases the tension.

No wonder your urban composers can't write a touching melody! Marieneli is probably on edge thinking he will be run over by some crazed driver back in Rome or Pisa!

Yeah, but everyone knows American concrete is better than European concrete. More inspiring.

You utter fool! It's well known among industrial and civil engineers that European concrete is decades ahead of American concrete!

http://www.concreteconstruction.net/Images/U.S.%20Tour%20of%20European%20Concrete%20Highways_tcm45-342652.pdf

[leeallen01 2,136]

Europe is far more diverse and culturally rich than the USA. Europe created the USA after all. The amount of languages and different musical histories and style in Europe is huge, going back thousands of years. I'm betting that every successful American composer has roots in Europe. For example, you can feel the emotion in every note of JNH's 'Defiance' because he learned of his Jewish heritage before scoring it. 84% of the US population live in towns and cities, which is only 10% of the country. So therefore by mere powers of deduction, the vast majority of US composers were born in urban areas, which clearly has had no negative effects on their quality of music.

Saying that a composers quality is based on their roots is true. Saying that a composers quality is based on their upbringing and exposure to local music is also true. Saying that a composer born in a city will have less heart and life than a composer born in the countryside is false.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

You are clearly wrong and need to check that thread: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12976

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Need some nature in your life! Go camping or something!

[leeallen01 2,136]

You are clearly wrong and need to check that thread: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12976

are you saying I'm wrong? So the USA is more culturally rich and diverse than Europe? And Europeans aren't responsible for creating the US? And 84% of Americans don't live in Urban areas? And JNH isn't Jewish?

What exactly am I wrong about?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I'm still wondering how a discussion about a British movie, originally meant to be scored by an Italian composer, then later composed by a British composer, ended up in a American composers vs European composers debate with grass and trees involved!

[leeallen01 2,136]

It started by someone saying Marianelli's music is soulless and then I disagreed and then everyone came in to argue about that. Then clearly some insecure 'muricans came in to talk about how amazing 'murica is.

[KK 3,307]

Typical Blume! Always creating trouble!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

For example, you can feel the emotion in every note of JNH's 'Defiance' because he learned of his Jewish heritage before scoring it.

I can hear a bargain basement Schindler's List in every note of Defiance. Don't know about Jewish heritage, but haven't the most of the renowned film composers been Jewish? Jerry Goldsmith, Alex North, Bernard Herrmann, Hans Zimmer, the Newman gang, Howard Shore, Leonard Rosenman, Danny Elfman, Franz Waxnan, Max Steiner, Miklós Rózsa, Erich Wolfgang Korngold etc. Most of which grew up in the hustle and bustle of the city.

[KK 3,307]

Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but Jewish people are often raised with a solid musical background no?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

It started by someone saying Marianelli's music is soulless and then I disagreed and then everyone came in to argue about that. Then clearly some insecure 'muricans came in to talk about how amazing 'murica is.

I don't think it's the Muricans that are insecure in this thread!

Also, Canada has significantly more trees than the U.S., and way more nature. Is that why Howard Shore gets his own sub forum on a John Williams fan site! I think it is!

[KK 3,307]

We Canadians love nature!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

For example, you can feel the emotion in every note of JNH's 'Defiance' because he learned of his Jewish heritage before scoring it.

I can hear a bargain basement Schindler's List in every note of Defiance. Don't know about Jewish heritage, but haven't the most of the renowned film composers been Jewish? Jerry Goldsmith, Alex North, Bernard Herrmann, Hans Zimmer, the Newman gang, Howard Shore, Leonard Rosenman, Danny Elfman, Franz Waxnan, Max Steiner, Miklós Rózsa, Erich Wolfgang Korngold etc. Most of which grew up in the hustle and bustle of the city.

After their families left the European continent no less!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

You're wrong. Clearly the heart of the debate is politics. Who writes it better? The liberals or the conservatives?

[leeallen01 2,136]

For example, you can feel the emotion in every note of JNH's 'Defiance' because he learned of his Jewish heritage before scoring it.

I can hear a bargain basement Schindler's List in every note of Defiance.

How dare JNH use a common Jewish instrument to portray a Jewish story. He should have known that Williams used it before and countless composers before Williams used it too. He should have used a triangle instead. And that guy, what's his name, Williams who used big brass for sci-fi. Just a cheap knock-off of Korngold. He should have used a harp instead.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

You're wrong. Clearly the heart of debate is politics. Who writes it better? The liberals or the conservatives?

Is there such a thing as a conservative artist? Really? I mean really think about it!

The only one I can think of was some Austrian dude, and he was such a bad artist he never got into art school!

[Hlao-roo 389]

You're wrong. Clearly the heart of debate is politics. Who writes it better? The liberals or the conservatives?

Is there such a thing as a conservative artist? Really? I mean really think about it!

Brahms?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Wagner?

... Ted Nugent?

[KK 3,307]

Maybe not to a large degree in today's times. But there are certainly conservative artists who stick to the tried and tested. I point you to any one of the Williams-pastiche based composers.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Both my favorite and least favorite posters are really going to town in this thread.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Defiance trumps Schindler's List in my book. And talking about solo-violin, so does his Village Score.