Complete "Breaking of the Fellowship" NZSO

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,359]

2 hours ago, Gollum Cat said:

Ok, good to know - then I'll give a shot at editing together the Tribute music and the Fan Club credits rip!

I already have myself. Perhaps I'll put it with my other stuff on google drive

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Man, I can't imagine the listening experience being improved by breaking up fantastic sequences like Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe and Balin's Tomb.  Those hold together so brilliantly.   

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[mstrox 6,651]

2 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said:

 

Also, the way the FOTR OST divides continuous music across two tracks is rather annoying when listening to the 'Breaking of the Fellowship' alone, and the music just cuts out.

 

My understanding from Doug around the time the album came out, is that this was due to legal limitations re: Enya.  They also, I believe, wanted to swap the songs around, but couldn't.

 

(citation needed)

[Jay 37,371]

27 minutes ago, TheWhiteRider said:

Man, I can't imagine the listening experience being improved by breaking up fantastic sequences like Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe and Balin's Tomb.  Those hold together so brilliantly.   

 

Regarding "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe":

 

Well the first 1:03 of the track is the music for Bilbo disappearing and sneaking back to Bag End and would function nicely as its own track.

 

From 1:03-4:00 is for all of Bilbo and Gandalf's scenes, and has a nice ending (which unfortunately had Ian Holm's singing awkwardly mixed over it on the CR) and would make another nice track.

 

Then 4:00-8:29 is for Frodo and Gandalf's scenes, as well as the transition to The Nine leaving Mordor and Gandalf in the Minis Tirith library, which would make another nice track. 

 

At 8:29 it unfortunately segues to the Green Dragon source song, overlaying the end of that last cue, AND the start of the Frodo/SAM scene actually begins in this track instead of the next.

 

The whole thing needs to be cleaned up.

 

 

Regarding "Balin's Tomb":

 

I actually think the two cues ("Dwarrowdefl" and "Balin's Tomb" that run from 0:00-3:00 would work nicely joined with the previous track "Gollum" for a nice 5 1/2 minute track.

 

Then "Orc Attack" (3:00-4:06) functions nicely as its own track, a nice buildup to the (unscored) battle.

And then 4:06-end ("The Cave Troll", "Mithril", and "The Second Hall") would be a great action track.

[Faleel 5,359]

20 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said:

Honestly I'm surprised the FOTR CR is the film edit of the score, being as good as it is. Imagine if any of the Hobbit score complete recordings were done that way!

Well  is not a strict film edit, some bits were restored.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

14 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Well the first 1:03 of the track is the music for Bilbo disappearing and sneaking back to Bag End and would function nicely as its own track.

 

From 1:03-4:00 is for all of Bilbo and Gandalf's scenes, and has a nice ending (which unfortunately had Ian Holm's singing awkwardly mixed over it on the CR) and would make another nice track.

 

Then 4:00-8:29 is for Frodo and Gandalf's scenes as well as The Nine leaving Mordor and Gandalf in the Minis Tirith library, which would make another nice track. 

 

At 8:29 it unfortunately segues to the Green Dragon source song, overlaying the end of that last cue, AND the start of the Frodo/SAM scene actually begins in this track instead of the next.

 

The whole thing needs to be cleaned up.

 

It feels better to me to have these long arc-pieces with musical and formal heft rather than many shorter ones that may be pleasant in isolation but are lessened by lack of context.  Just my own album preference.  

[Jay 37,371]

Musically I think of the Bilbo disappearance music, the Bilbo/Gandalf music, and the Frodo/Gandalf music as three separate musical set pieces.

[Faleel 5,359]

Especially when you remove the tracked music from the occasion

I have it this way:

 

Bilbo disappears through him leaving as a seperate track > Frodo arrives - end

[Gollum Cat 24]

2 minutes ago, Fennel Ka said:

Especially when you remove the tracked music from the occasion

Is there documentation somewhere for what music was tracked and where? I have slowly over the years been modding my copy of LOTR to suit my preferences - I'd love to remove tracked music eventually, too.

[Jay 37,371]

Yea, that bit of tracked music is the most annoying one because the original music isn't available clean at all.  I've actually been meaning to ask someone to transcribe and then make a really good synth mockup of it instead of having to use the documentary rip.

For anyone who doesn't know the music I'm talking about:

 

 

 

(Starting at 0:32)

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I was being dumb and in this post I am talking about tracked music in "A Conspiracy Unmasked", not "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe".  Woops!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I think Shore structured these releases in a very classical way.  There's a great sense of operatic architecture in them, and that is very appealing to me, where it may irk those looking for an exact duplication of what's heard in the film or something more akin to traditional complete score releases.  

 

It fits with his conception of a book, a film, and his music.  I take these albums as his presentation of his music, not of his score for the film.  

[Faleel 5,359]

Jay I was referring  to KIS KIS...

[Jay 37,371]

8 minutes ago, TheWhiteRider said:

I think Shore structured these releases in a very classical way.  There's a great sense of operatic architecture in them, and that is very appealing to me, where it may irk those looking for an exact duplication of what's heard in the film or something more akin to traditional complete score releases.  

 

It fits with his conception of a book, a film, and his music.  I take these albums as his presentation of his music, not of his score for the film.  

 

And I'd be happy for his version to remain in print for all to enjoy ON TOP OF a complete 4CD version

[Faleel 5,359]

This was the music I was referring to https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9U25jeV9qMHdnZjg/edit?usp=sharing

[Jay 37,371]

17 minutes ago, Gollum Cat said:

Is there documentation somewhere for what music was tracked and where? I have slowly over the years been modding my copy of LOTR to suit my preferences - I'd love to remove tracked music eventually, too.

 

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23818-a-conspiracy-unmasked-or-analyzing-the-fellowship-of-the-ring-cr/

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23525-the-lord-of-the-rings-score-restored-unused-howard-shore-music-restored-to-picture/

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Fennel Ka said:

This was the music I was referring to https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9U25jeV9qMHdnZjg/edit?usp=sharing

 

Yes, I got mixed up and was thinking of A Conspiracy Unmasked instead of Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe.

 

Yes, it is also a shame the CR didn't restore that music, instead retaining the final film's tracking in of music from Parth Galen.

[Faleel 5,359]

Fun fact the symphony version of the prophecy is  actually 75% the rarities version

[Jay 37,371]

On 7/14/2016 at 1:12 PM, crumbs said:

I did a little editing test and matched the Breaking of the Fellowship alternate to the final film. Incredibly, it fits almost perfectly. 

 

The only footage edit I had to make was a 10 second extension to shots of Aragorn watching Frodo & Sam reach the opposite shore and head into the forest. It's remarkable how little Jackson changed this film's ending throughout months of post-production; just imagine if this were a Hobbit film!

 

I don't know how to embed video clips from VidMe (never used it before) so hopefully this link works:

 

https://vid.me/AuAU

 

 

@crumbs I finally had a chance to watch this - great work!

[Incanus 5,715]

15 hours ago, Jay said:

 

And I'd be happy for his version to remain in print for all to enjoy ON TOP OF a complete 4CD version

Although I like the original CR quite a bit, I'd certainly buy such a "definitive" version in a heartbeat as FotR remains one of my favourites scores of all time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How is the FOTR not the definitive edition?

[Jay 37,371]

We've literally been talking for 2 pages about all the tracked and missing music on it.  Keep up!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The score was written over the period of a year or longer. Of course there's going to be missing music. That's completely unavoidable. I doubt it's possible to compile a "definitive" version of FOTR that's actually listenable. 

[Jay 37,371]

Again, read the thread. The ideal situation is a three disc set similar to the CR except without the final films tracking, looping, and editing retained on CD, and with all alternates on a fourth bonus disc. There you go, both listenable and complete.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But that would mean the History Of Thje Ring theme, which is the central theme of the trilogy is barely heard in the score. How is that acceptable?

 

FOTR is a score that was created in assembly. The fanboys should just accept that and enjoy what they already got.

[Jay 37,371]

Nobody would force you to buy a new set. 

[Faleel 5,359]

Plus it would only be 2 less statements, and the revised versions of Prologue and The Great River, and the EE cues would make up for it.

13 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

But that would mean the History Of Thje Ring theme, which is the central theme of the trilogy is barely heard in the score. How is that acceptable?

 

FOTR is a score that was created in assembly. The fanboys should just accept that and enjoy what they already got.

Without tracking the HOTR appears 7 times in FOTR, which  still 1 more than TTT where it appears 6 times, so if you can deal with it there....

Which is nothing compared to ROTK's 18 (!) appearances of the theme

[Kühni 485]

My love for and enjoyment of FotR (both as the book, the film and the score!) has been unconditional from the beginning. And while I am aware, but not Jim Ware, of some of the behind-the-scenes decisions that likely have taken place during various times during FotR's production (both in the writing, recording and CR assembly stages), I, like Georg, feel ever so slightly unhappy with the small imperfect puzzle pieces of the CR, be it the edits that were - apparently - not touched up, or the missing alternates. As has been pointed out in the past both by others and myself, neither T2T nor RotK feature these "imperfections" the way they affect FotR.

 

My reaction to the new findings about the alternate 'Breaking' is pretty much the same as Georg's. (I swear, should he and I ever manage to meet up [I've been trying for a decade!], this could be the event of the century. Imagine all the German anger and discontent shared between two LotR nuts!). I wrote some time ago that the 1% of the FotR CR that is less-than-perfect will not ever overshadow the 99% of it that is perfect. And I stand by that assessment. But I too question, or better am bemused, by some of the decisions that were made regarding the FotR CR, decisions that apparently were re-considered in time for T2T (which then continued for RotK, since 'Bilbo's Song' was included on the RotK CR, but perhaps its case is different as it was expressly written for inclusion in the EE fan credits, whereas 'Breaking' wasn't). Why those decisions were taken, or what they were based on, I of course do not know. Doug might know, but perhaps cannot comment on them. Jim Ware seems to know a thing or two as well, but doesn't seem to be able to go beyond "informative teasing", either!  I can, however, understand that 'Breaking' might hot have pinged anybody's radar as edited or incomplete 10 or 11 years ago. Or perhaps it did, but nobody considered it a big deal. Other than some of us do, today.

 

And regarding the non-inclusion of 'Breaking' on the RA and the argument of 8.5 minutes of a partially-heard alternate composition vs. 8.5 of all-new music... Before getting to Georg's comment on this, I too was thinking "Well, what about the four minutes of 'The End of All Things/Mount Doom+The Eagles/Sammath Naur' that is the same between all three representations?!" To this day, I have to consciously pay attention to 'The Eaves of Fangorn' to notice the differences to the CR version of it. So yeah, an argument can really be made about whether some piece was "alternate enough" to warrant inclusion over another one that wasn't deemed as such by the producers of the RA (but is by us).

 

Indeed, as Jason said, had the original idea (back in 2008/09) of presenting the RA on a DVD (with the actually filmed conversation between Doug and Howard Shore) been kept, we would probably have gotten more "alternate enough" pieces along the lines of 'Breaking'. (Note I said "probably"; I have not and never had any inside knowledge about any of this). Actually, about the interview: this would've been great to watch in full. Those nine minutes on the RA are for me just a teaser. I'd be incredibly curious about more discussions about Shore's approach, his intuition (which he actually briefly mentions), why have X instruments representing X culture, were therre inspirations from other sources (Boito's Mefistofele comes to mind), how he arrived at the themes etc. Because other than those nine minutes, all we have of that interview is the picture of Doug and Howard in the book and the "bloopers" that Doug shared a while ago. And don't get me started on the concert DVD than accompanied the RotK-DVD set in 2004. Shore's reading off stuff from a teleprompter is awfully boring.

 

What Jason wrote about the imaginary 4-CD set of FotR comes pretty damn close to what this MOTHER OF ALL FILM SCORES should ideally be represented like. But even when considering that the CR came out over 10 years ago, I highly doubt these scores will ever be re-visited to make them even more complete (and to our specifications, of course). And to be honest, what we do have between the OSTs, the CRs, the RA and Faleel's reconstructions is about 99.9% perfect. That is pretty darn good, if you ask me (but since nobody is ever asking me, it doesn't matter...).

 

That remaining 0.1% is, however, by now directly tied to those 8.5 minutes of the alternate 'Breaking of the Fellowship' and all of you can bet your asses that I am incredibly and infinitely vexed by this. Indeed, VEXED.

 

A good weekend to all!  

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,371]

2 hours ago, Fennel Ka said:

Plus it would only be 2 less statements, and the revised versions of Prologue and The Great River, and the EE cues would make up for it.

 

Yup. The HOTR theme wouldn't disappear, it would just have it's tracked statements in Keep It Simple Keep It Safe and Conspiracy Unmasked replaced by what Shore actually wrote for those scenes. The big grand statements in the prologue and as they travel through the Argonath statues would still remain, as would all the other little statements scattered about the score.

 

Not a big deal at all.

 

 

 

Quote

Without tracking the HOTR appears 7 times in FOTR, which  still 1 more than TTT where it appears 6 times, so if you can deal with it there....

Which is nothing compared to ROTK's 18 (!) appearances of the theme

 

Yea. Steef saying "barely heard" is simply incorrect.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, SafeUnderHill said:

 

I swear you seem to like popping up and trolling in random threads.

 

Fuck you, you prick!

 

Ive been writing about this score years before anyone knew who the fuck you were!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm just fed up with the LOTR fanboy entitlement that permuates this place. Whinging about missing music even though you already got so much! Whiny cunts!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Richard Penna 3,694]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

I'm just fed up with the LOTR fanboy entitlement that permuates this place. Whinging about missing music even though you already got so much! Whiny cunts!

 

And I've fed up with how you appear to get away with abusive language on a daily basis.

[gkgyver 1,645]

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

 

Fuck you, you prick!

 

Ive been writing about this score years before anyone knew who the fuck you were!

 

Dude, ever since it became kind of cool to bash the Hobbit, you pop up randomly in Tolkien threads and spout random bullshit, like FotR was created in assembly. Seriously, just stop sounding like a bitter anti-troll.

 

Just move on with your apparently miserable life if you don't like the few discussions going on in this subforum, that you strangely go to the Trouble for of visiting it.

6 hours ago, Stefancos said:

The score was written over the period of a year or longer. Of course there's going to be missing music. That's completely unavoidable. I doubt it's possible to compile a "definitive" version of FOTR that's actually listenable. 

 

I'm sorry, but are you stupid?

Take the pieces that are in the film and present them in their unedited form.

What is possible for TTT and RotK is possible for FotR.

 

If anything, FotR was the most streamlined of the three, as stated in several interviews.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You should learn to read better in English, since I've consistently been more positive about The Hobbit then a lot of people.

18 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

I'm sorry, but are you stupid?

Take the pieces that are in the film and present them in their unedited form.

What is possible for TTT and RotK is possible for FotR.

 

Neither the CR of TTT and ROTK conform to any version of the film exactly. ROTK deviates quite badly at a few points actually.

[Faleel 5,359]

And...?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Faleel 5,359]

Sigh... another Gia style post from Stefancos...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

 

And I've fed up with how you appear to get away with abusive language on a daily basis.

 

He's made me cry thrice today.

[Faleel 5,359]

10 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

What?

Dull, uninspired,  mediocre and repetitious. 

 

Sad really, considering your early posting brilliance.

[Jay 37,371]

Stefan please stop with the abusive language, it us completely unnecessary and inappropriate. Thank you.

[gkgyver 1,645]

On 15. Juli 2016 at 3:32 PM, Jim Ware said:

 

Exactly.  Had the rarities been released on a format with a higher capacity as originally suggested, I'm sure that this and other compositions could have been included.

 

Even if that had been the case people would still be complaining. 

 

Sorry, but that is just not true at all.

Why say ok, had we gone another route, this and that and other things could have been included, but at the same time assume that people who said they wished for that, would have complained about it? I stand by my point that the decision to go with a single CD was a poor choice, and sorry, one could have known that.

Nobody wants hours of recorded alternates, not officially on disc. But right now, there are almost exactly 50 minutes of real Score recordings on the RA, That is roughly 16-17 minutes per Film. Subtract some already known parts of the pieces, and you are left with around 8-10 minutes of true alternate music per 3-4 Hour score.

Sorry, nobody, not you, not Doug, not anybody can look me in the eye and say "Hey, that's enough, and there isn't much more there".

And being honest here, if we really go by the argument "ok, that is already available in some form", then honestly, scrap the fucking Shore interview too, there is nothing there that you could not watch and hear on DVD, or listen to on Youtube in Shore interviews.

 

And about the "it's just a relatively small extension" argument. By that reasoning, why put the 4 Minute Flight to the Ford on the disc, for what is barely 30 seconds of Alternate music? They put Arwen's Song there because of a basically irrelevant and small extension.

 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Jim Ware, cheers to you for sticking around here and saying what you can despite often being absurdly and laughably crucified for it.  You're a gentleman and a scholar.

[Faleel 5,359]

Often? Gkyver recent outbursts do not constitute often.